youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

[Chilo]

A little different than the question that "armydog" posted a couple of days ago but similar. My 10 year old boy has shot some, but mostly supported. He has a Rossi combo that allows switching between a .22 and a .410 shotgun. Lots of fun, but not legal for the Colorado 4-H program where they will be shooting a modified Olympic style competition. The break open style is a safety concern with the rimfire ammunition. Additionally, manually drawing the hammer back is difficult...rifle not allowed.

After reading up on some other youth .22 posts, I looked at a couple of Savages on Saturday. The Cub that I looked at had a rear aperture sight. The Mark I (single shot only) and the Mark II both had standard "U" notch rear sight. I don't know if this was standard for the model or just the configuration that these individual rifles came in.

I did look for the CZ 452, but only could find the "American" version threaded for a supressor in a full size stock (about $450). I would be interested in looking at on in a youth model if I can find one. The "American" came with standard "U" notch open sights also.

For this application, they will be shooting from the standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone unsupported positions at 50 feet.

Bonus for me, this is the first of four kids to start down this road. When the rifle gets outgrown, it gets passed down to the next little shooter. Simple durability is important. I want them to be able to compete, but more importantly I want them to learn well. This might be a small investment that can pay off big down the road. Thanks.

Chilo

 

[kraigWY]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

Most 22s come with groves that allow the use of 22 scope mounts. There are several apeture type sights designed to slide on these groves.

Anschütz sights are like that. I've put the sights from my 1807 on my CZ 452 and it worked quite will. Problem is Anschütz sights cost a heck of a lot more then the standard 22 rifle.

They have other cheaper sights out that would work, I use them in teaching 4-H shooting sports. Later I'll go out to the shop and find some and post pictures.

The CMP is big on teaching Rimfire Sporting Rifle Shooting, and include it in their GSM Master Instructor Courses. I attended the GSM MI Course with several people who were Rimfire Sporting Rifle Instructors. Most agreed the CZ 452s were the best light rifles out there. That is not to say that the Savage & Marlins wont work, they do quite well.

I'd recommend finding a rifle with the slots or grooves to accept scope rings and finding the apeture sight that will fit in these grooves. If you don't want to use the post front sight, find a rive with the dove tail and replace it with the globe sight.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

In our Youth Marksmanship program, we favored no preference between scopes, dots, apertures, or notches. Pretty universally, our Distinguished Experts chose to employ apertures when shooting for Distinguished. When shooting with irons for serious score, I prefer the aperture myself (and an aperture front sight, as well. This is the way my Garand is set up.), but there's really no reason why the notch and blade should be in any manner inferior.

Greg

 

[Chilo]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

Kraig WY, thanks for the input. I would really appreciate a look at or at least the models of the sights that you've been using or would recommend.

Greg, I enjoy your posts as they usually bring fundamentals and common sense to the front of every discussion. These two things fix almost every situation imaginable.

Thanks again.

Chilo

 

[C.Hazelton]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

The CMP offers the MK I and MK II's with aperture, aperture sights to clubs quite reasonably. Good entry level gun.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

While I prefer apertures, we have encountered problems with kids who either have vision issues (sometimes we're the first ones to uncover these problems), or just can't grasp the concept well enough to figure out how to make them work (this includes learning impaired kids who have just as much a right to learn marksmanship as any others. With the right tools, they can be very adept.). For these kids, we have found that the dot scope is a pretty valuable alternative.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

To an extent, a parallax free dot sight, if there is such a thing, can come to the aid of shooters who, for whatever reason, cannot grasp the principles of marksmanship; however, these aids, as well as scopes can deceive shooters into believing they actually know something about where the rifle is pointed when all they really understand with such sights is the reticle/target relationship.

The aperture sight, absent of angular error, when properly aligned, supports good shooting at any distance. A peep at receiver with post at front, IMHO, is the most appropriate sight set for those who have an interest in getting to the highest levels of good shooting. And, with a recognition for the importance of stockweld, developed from iron sight shooting, these shooters can get dazzling results from a scoped rifle too, since their unconscious motor memory helps to get a consistent eyeball/eyepiece relationship, thus reducing the effect of unobservable parallax error.

Also, I believe shooters who have the impression that the scope sight will improve results, are undermining their marksmanship development. That's to say, a scope can help a shooter to get good hits not because the shooter knows anything about marksmanship but instead because the shooter knows nothing about marksmanship. And, when you're getting acceptable results, looking into unobservable problems is not likely, so no learning takes place.

Thing is, the scope is so ubiquitous today, that folks getting good hits with one, simply don't recognize any need for marksmanship training, or they perceive, since they're getting good hits, under conditions they control, they're already mighty fine marksmen. Give these folks a UKD target, some wind, slope, plus, a fixed focus scope, and they're hopeless to get a good hit, even when they've ranged accurately. Interestingly, these folks do not equate their errors at MR or LR targets as having anything to do with their marksmanship. Instead, they'll blame it on the rifle, scope, or ammunition. To see what I mean, just look at the rifle, scope, and re-loading threads here. They're full of posts questioning arrows, instead of properly addressing the indian's real problems.

One more thing, the buck-horn type rear sight, such as found on the CZ452, is no substitute for a good peep. Using the buck-horn, only the youngest eyes can resolve when a consistent relationship between it and the front "bead" has been established. Therefore, this sight is not appropriate for anything except perhaps the most basic firearms familiarization training, since it thwarts a good result even when the shooter is aligning sights properly.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

I concur fully.

I see the dot as having its greatest value in situations where for some reason, time/speed etc., complete diligence cannot be applied to sight alignment.

In all other cases, iron sights and conventional optical sights are my preference. In practical terms, sights should not make a difference in marksmanship ability, but circumstance can make this less true.

Greg

 

[Chilo]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

Thanks for the input. This is exactly what I was hoping to get. Most of my initial "learning" involved only myself, a brick of .22's, and time behind the rifle. Unfortunately, I developed a lot of habits that needed unlearned. I'm trying to avoid that as much as possible with my own kids.

That is why I've delayed starting this whole process until we could do it right. If we can get the fundamentals down correctly now, everything in the future will come so much easier.

What kind of aperture sights are practical for these youth programs? It is a little hard for me to justify Anschütz sights right now. Although their reputation is unparalleled, we're not at that level yet.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

Williams and Lyman both sell a couple target sights in the 70-90 dollar range through MidwayUSA, and for the front globe sights, there are plenty that go for around 30-50 dollars. This is what i plan to do personally. Here are links to what i'm looking at:

Front Globe:
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16383&cat=580&page=1

Rear Aperature:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=863452
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=568729
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=510077
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=864240

Let it be well known that I have no clue what I'm talking about thogh when it comes to irons

Hope this helps,
-Dylan

 

[kraigWY]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kraig WY, I would really appreciate a look at or at least the models of the sights that you've been using or would recommend.</div></div>

It depends on the style of shooting you do. CMP Rimfire Sporting events have those with Apeture sight compete with those with scopes. NRA Light rifle events don't seperate them.

Personally, I recommend an apeture rear sight and a post front. I believe it's better for teaching fundamentals. As they advance I then recommend apeture sights on both ends.

Most kids do well with the appeture rear and post front. It's easier to get them to concentrate on the front sight then the open rear where they are looking at the rear sight or the double appeture sights where they are looking at the target.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kraig WY, I would really appreciate a look at or at least the models of the sights that you've been using or would recommend.</div></div>

It depends on the style of shooting you do. CMP Rimfire Sporting events have those with Apeture sight compete with those with scopes. NRA Light rifle events don't seperate them.

Personally, I recommend an apeture rear sight and a post front. I believe it's better for teaching fundamentals. As they advance I then recommend apeture sights on both ends.

Most kids do well with the appeture rear and post front. It's easier to get them to concentrate on the front sight then the open rear where they are looking at the rear sight or the double appeture sights where they are looking at the target.

</div></div>

Apertures at both ends, will improve performance for sure, since concentric circles better discern proper alignment. I still like the post; however, primarily because, it allows for more creative holds which conditions may call for.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: youth .22 Aperture vs. Standard sights?

I get you about picking up bad habits by training alone.

That's why I like a team approach. It's not about instruction as much as it is about having an independent mind and set of eyes to provide an objective overwatch. It lends itself well to taking turns as shooter and observer.

As long as the team partners understand the importance of objectivity and the need to accept criticism, it works well. Done properly, both roles provide insight.

Greg