Advanced Marksmanship Zerod at 50/200 and......

[RNR]

So my newly built and scoped AR had previously been sighted in at 25 yards (holes touching holes) and I finally got it out to a good distance the other day...

While there the first thing I did was I quickly got it dialed in at 50 yards and then moved to 200 to make sure things were working at they worked as hoped/expected and they did just that.

Then after me explaining to my Son how things worked on the 1/4 MOA scope adjustments and the reticle markings, with his first 10 shots ever on and AR platform he was hitting a 10" skillet at 400 yards 8 out of 10 rounds.

So now tomorrow I'm going back to an indoor range with 25 yards and my turret is zeroed at the 50/200.

...am I correct that I will need to go up in elevation 1/4 of an MOA or one click?

I know I will figure this out tomorrow on my own but I'm a bad Christmas kid and want to know now.........

Thanks in advance

 

[308pirate]

So my newly built and scoped AR had previously been sighted in at 25 yards (holes touching holes) and I finally got it out to a good distance the other day...

While there the first thing I did was I quickly got it dialed in at 50 yards and then moved to 200 to make sure things were working at they worked as hoped/expected and they did just that.

Then after me explaining to my Son how things worked on the 1/4 MOA scope adjustments and the reticle markings, with his first 10 shots ever on and AR platform he was hitting a 10" skillet at 400 yards 8 out of 10 rounds.

So now tomorrow I'm going back to an indoor range with 25 yards and my turret is zeroed at the 50/200.

...am I correct that I will need to go up in elevation 1/4 of an MOA or one click?

I know I will figure this out tomorrow on my own but I'm a bad Christmas kids and want to know now.........

Thanks in advance

http://jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him to fish and he will never go hungry

BTW there isn't enough information in your post to give you the answer if I was inclined to do your homework, which I'm not.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

So my newly built and scoped AR had previously been sighted in at 25 yards (holes touching holes) and I finally got it out to a good distance the other day...

While there the first thing I did was I quickly got it dialed in at 50 yards and then moved to 200 to make sure things were working at they worked as hoped/expected and they did just that.

Then after me explaining to my Son how things worked on the 1/4 MOA scope adjustments and the reticle markings, with his first 10 shots ever on and AR platform he was hitting a 10" skillet at 400 yards 8 out of 10 rounds.

So now tomorrow I'm going back to an indoor range with 25 yards and my turret is zeroed at the 50/200.

...am I correct that I will need to go up in elevation 1/4 of an MOA or one click?

I know I will figure this out tomorrow on my own but I'm a bad Christmas kids and want to know now.........

Thanks in advance

Why would you change it once you have it properly zeroed?
If you go back to shoot it at 25 yards, what are you trying to accomplish?
At 25 yards you should be focusing on consistency, not actually hitting the exact spot you are aiming at.

 

[RNR]

Why would you change it once you have it properly zeroed?
If you go back to shoot it at 25 yards, what are you trying to accomplish?
At 25 yards you should be focusing on consistency, not actually hitting the exact spot you are aiming at.

I was simply pondering the math/turret adjustments - I've been shooting for 45 years, I'm just new to scopes and I hear what you're saying about groups - You're right, I'm zeroed where I want to be and won't change my actual "0" position but again, I was just pondering the technical side of things

 

[RNR]

When shooing at 25 yards, with a 50 yard zero, you can use zeroing targets like this. No need to adjust your scope...

Download zeroing targets from Arma Dynamics:
http://arma-dynamics.com/red-dot-zero-targets.html

25 Yard Red Dot Optic Zero Target​

(Provides a 50 Yard Zero)​

AR-15​

​

These targets utilize the same design as the standard ARMA DYNAMICS 50 Yard Red Dot Zero Target, but have been adjusted to provide a 50 yard zero while only shooting from the 25 yard line. These are useful for those who may not have access to a longer range, but would like to have a 50 yard zero. The targets are designed to work with standard AR sight height (2.6" - 2.8" over the bore) using averaged M193 / M855 velocities from a 16" barrel. These should also help those using different rifle setups (barrel length) and/or heavier grain bullets get close.​

​

Place the target at 25 yards. Your point of aim should be at the colored / bold outlined portion of the target. Fire your group. Adjust the point of impact to the GRAY DOT in the middle of the target. If you follow the adjustment grid it will get you there. The ballistic compensation works out to provide a 50/200 yard zero.​

​

Be mindful to keep the optic's dot centered within the optic itself as much as possible when zeroing at this range as most optics are not entirely parallax free at 25 yards. Also, be sure to verify this at 50 yards when you can as there may be slight differences in each weapon that may alter the zero (sight over bore height, co-witness, barrel length, ammunition used, etc.).​

View attachment 7470625

That's pretty cool and I might try it sometime just to see how they work out - For now I'm having fun with playing with this scope and how the 1/4MOA clicks are best used as opposed to the hash marks on the reticle

- For example, in my original post we were hitting 10" steel at 200 and then when we went out to 300 and 400 yards that was done using the reticle not adjusting the turret off the 50/200 zero

... ... ... So again, just exploring the way this other method can work - Thanks again for the reply

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I was simply pondering the math/turret adjustments - I've been shooting for 45 years, I'm just new to scopes and I hear what you're saying about groups - You're right, I'm zeroed where I want to be and won't change my actual "0" position but again, I was just pondering the technical side of things

Depending on scope height, I'd say 12 to 16 clicks which is 3 or 4 minutes of angle.

 

[RNR]

Depending on scope height, I'd say 12 to 16 clicks which is 3 or 4 minutes of angle.

So if I'm zeroed at 50 and move to 25, isn't that 1/4 of a MOA difference ?

 

[Matches Malone]

So if I'm zeroed at 50 and move to 25, isn't that 1/4 of a MOA difference ?

I think you’re asking the question wrong, I’m not sure if people get what your asking.

1 moa at 25 yards is 1/4 inch.

the problem with your question is if you move your zero from 50 to 25... the answer would be now your not zero’d.

If you’re asking about the offset of your shot, then say that.

if your asking about if you rezero’d then the answer how even many clicks to get to zero.

 

[RNR]

I think you’re asking the question wrong, I’m not sure if people get what your asking.

1 moa at 25 yards is 1/4 inch.

the problem with your question is if you move your zero from 50 to 25... the answer would be now your not zeroe’d.

If you’re asking about the offset of your shot, then say that.

if your asking about if you rezero’d then the answer how even many clicks to get to zero.

Maybe I'm missing something, no sarcasm intended, seriously but in my initial post I said, "So now tomorrow I'm going back to an indoor range with 25 yards and my turret is zeroed at the 50/200....am I correct that I will need to go up in elevation 1/4 of an MOA or one click?" and then I followed up with " So if I'm zeroed at 50 and move to 25, isn't that 1/4 of a MOA difference ?"

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Maybe I'm missing something, no sarcasm intended, seriously but in my initial post I said, "So now tomorrow I'm going back to an indoor range with 25 yards and my turret is zeroed at the 50/200....am I correct that I will need to go up in elevation 1/4 of an MOA or one click?" and then I followed up with " So if I'm zeroed at 50 and move to 25, isn't that 1/4 of a MOA difference ?"

Ok, I see I need to explain some more.

With an AR-15 the sight height is usually about 2.5" above the bore line. Going from a 50 yd zero to a 25 yd zero means that the angle between the line of sight and the bore is increased, therefore you will have to "come up" from your 50 yd zero somewhere between 3 and 4 minutes of angle, which is about 1" at 25 yards.

A minute of angle at 25 yds is approximately 1/4", but your click value is only 1/16" at that distance. So, 12 to 16 clicks is my best guestimate. If you do nothing at all you will only be about an inch or so low.

 

[308pirate]

Why do you guys keep spoonfee

So if I'm zeroed at 50 and move to 25, isn't that 1/4 of a MOA difference ?

I gave you everything you need to figure it out.

 

[RNR]

Why do you guys keep spoonfee

I gave you everything you need to figure it out.

You're a real fkn charmer aren't you ....

 

[RNR]

Ok, I see I need to explain some more.

With an AR-15 the sight height is usually about 2.5" above the bore line. Going from a 50 yd zero to a 25 yd zero means that the angle between the line of sight and the bore is increased, therefore you will have to "come up" from your 50 yd zero somewhere between 3 and 4 minutes of angle, which is about 1" at 25 yards.

A minute of angle at 25 yds is approximately 1/4", but your click value is only 1/16" at that distance. So, 12 to 16 clicks is my best guestimate. If you do nothing at all you will only be about an inch or so low.

OK, I'm getting it and I really appreciate the reply - Thank you

 

[308pirate]

You're a real fkn charmer aren't you ....

Ever since the spring this place has become flooded with fucking noobs who don't know their asshole from the hole where the bullet comes from and then want everything handed out.

What scope, what dope, what this, what that? Never "how do I learn"

So yeah, I'm a real fucking charmer........

GTFO

 

[RNR]

Ever since the spring this place has become flooded with fucking noobs who don't know their asshole from the hole where the bullet comes from and then want everything handed out.

What scope, what dope, what this, what that? Never "how do I learn"

So yeah, I'm a real fucking charmer........

GTFO

Yep, I'm a noob to scopes..........but I'll tell you one thing man, if someone steps into my world who doesn't know anything about it, I don't treat them like shit because I choose to log into a message board where I know it's gonna happen. If I don't want to deal with that shit, and I do understand that frustration, then I don't log on and I definitely don't engage the situation..........FACT IS, you replied to my post just to vent so you can GTFO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[smoothy8500]

I've been shooting for 45 years, I'm just new to scopes

We get it that you're "new to scopes", but you're not new to adjustable sights, right? Whether your rear sight was 1/4, 1/2, or a full MOA "click" value, it's the same operation as your new 1/4 MOA scope. The same rules apply for both irons and scopes. I think you just got a little confused.

 

[RNR]

We get it that you're "new to scopes", but you're not new to adjustable sights, right? Whether your rear sight was 1/4, 1/2, or a full MOA "click" value, it's the same operation as your new 1/4 MOA scope. The same rules apply for both irons and scopes. I think you just got a little confused.

I'm an iron sight guy I guess....I understand and have functioned under a Kentucky Windage approach my whole life so all scopes are new to me

 

[RNR]

I'm lifelong (42 years now) martial artist and paid the bills as a video engineer for 24 years including hundreds of major motion pictures like Star Wars, etc. before opening a martial arts school. I'm not stupid but I'm also not going to be shamed and bullied for not knowing....if it's too much trouble to reply then don't......So far, several of you have offered great input for me to consider and work into my understand of how it all works.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I'm lifelong (42 years now) martial artist and paid the bills as a video engineer for 24 years including hundreds of major motion pictures like Star Wars, etc. before opening a martial arts school. I'm not stupid but I'm also not going to be shamed and bullied for not knowing....if it's too much trouble to reply then don't......So far, several of you have offered great input for me to consider and work into my understand of how it all works.

I thank you for your work. I've been a Star Wars fan since I saw the first one when I was 6 years old.

 

[RNR]

Some of you questions may be addressed in the info referenced below.

This article on Weaponized Math is very good and easy to apply:
https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/truing-your-ballistic-calculator-with-weaponized-math/
https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/predictable-weaponized-math-and-x-factor-voodoo/

This article on MOA and MIL mathematics is a good refernce:
http://www.millettsights.com/resources/shooting-tips/mathematics-for-precision-shooters/

You might try using some of the online ballistic calculators. They will give you the offset/adjustments needed at various distances.

https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/standard

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php

https://lrbc.vortexoptics.com/#!/

Thanks for that Tono - I will dig into that this morning with my coffee - I forgot that I did download & even paid for Strelok Pro for my phone....but I want to be able to do the math myself as well or at least see it in my head of how it needs to be calculated....I guess I'm weird that way and again, this is great !

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Data books! What was your 25 yard zero before you went to 50 and 200? Was 50 and 200 the same? 25 will be approximately the same as 300, like 50 and 200 are similar. 25 and 50 are the bullet trajectory going up, 200 and 300 are coming down.

Record your elevation, conditions, light conditions, direction shooting. These are conditions you can refer back to. You can even record settings for iron sights not just scopes.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

You're a real fkn charmer aren't you ....

The real charmer is Crabby Football, not his name but you'll know who I mean. If you think 308pirate is bad, he's not. PM me your bullet and load or weight and factory ammo info and ill. Send some ideas. There is a lot of good info around here if you don't take things too personal.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Advanced Marksmanship - What do I need in a logbook/databook Reference

The topic of data books and or log books comes up on a regular basis here on Snipers Hide and thru my business email. So I would like to take the time to answer some of the questions and reasons why you should have a data book as well as what options you may want to look for when putting a book...

www.snipershide.com

Some places have odd winds or the light plays at different angles. Having data for a match from a couple years ago and referring back to it can fix a bad call today.

 

[RNR]

Data books! What was your 25 yard zero before you went to 50 and 200? Was 50 and 200 the same? 25 will be approximately the same as 300, like 50 and 200 are similar. 25 and 50 are the bullet trajectory going up, 200 and 300 are coming down.

Record your elevation, conditions, light conditions, direction shooting. These are conditions you can refer back to. You can even record settings for iron sights not just scopes.

At 25 was my initial "zero" and I just walked it in - Then I did the same thing at 50 and yes it was the same at 200 and 2 MOAs got my Son to 400 on 8/10 rnds on a 10" iron skillet - After that, I pulled the turret cap off and made that my "Zero". This post originated from me just pondering what the math is when I go back to the 25yrd range and wanting to see if I can adjust my elevation ahead of time based on theory and just see how close it is....just as an interesting way to learn is all

 

[RNR]

The real charmer is Crabby Football, not his name but you'll know who I mean. If you think 308pirate is bad, he's not. PM me your bullet and load or weight and factory ammo info and ill. Send some ideas. There is a lot of good info around here if you don't take things too personal.

I appreciate what you're saying - I have a ballistic app and have punched everything in but I was trying to work out the math/logic on my own --- I'll keep an eye out for "Crabby Football"...lol....

 

[Victory]

I got on this site in 2005. All I knew about shooting was from the military. This site had civilian shooters that blew my mind with the amount of knowledge they had. If you take your time and read, there is a depth of knowledge here that will take you as far as you are will to go in the long range world. With that knowledge, there is a vast array of personalities to go with it. Most are type A kind of guys, so don’t take anything personally.

Good luck and enjoy the process.

 

[supercorndogs]

Turretgunner....errr crabbysoccer, had a meeting with the ban cat. I bet we don't see him again...under that screen name anyway.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Turretgunner....errr crabbysoccer, had a meeting with the ban cat. I bet we don't see him again...under that screen name anyway.

gosh, sorry to hear that. and he was such a nice boy......

 

[smoothy8500]

 

[Rerun7]

OP is this a defensive rifle or a precision rifle? Reason I ask is that you should stop for a minute and think about what’s most valuable for your application.

If it’s a precision rifle then why are you not zeroing at 100 yards and making adjustments from there as this will be the basic zero for the vast majority of precision rifle applications.

if it’s a defensive rifle you shouldn’t adjust your sights at closer range. You should learn your offset at those distances because you won’t be making adjustments in a defensive scenario inside of a couple hundred yards anyway. You need to know where to aim on your target from bad breath distance out to 300+ yards.

 

[RNR]

OP is this a defensive rifle or a precision rifle? Reason I ask is that you should stop for a minute and think about what’s most valuable for your application.

If it’s a precision rifle then why are you not zeroing at 100 yards and making adjustments from there as this will be the basic zero for the vast majority of precision rifle applications.

if it’s a defensive rifle you shouldn’t adjust your sights at closer range. You should learn your offset at those distances because you won’t be making adjustments in a defensive scenario inside of a couple hundred yards anyway. You need to know where to aim on your target from bad breath distance out to 300+ yards.

Not sure if you read it I'm good with my set up of 50/200 and know the benefits of using your suggestion of 100 - The current zero is working on 10" steel at 400 by knowing how to use the scope and adjust accordingly . To answer your question though, this is more of a precision set-up

 

[Rerun7]

Yeah, I read it (a couple times). I was going beyond your original question to get you to think about where many of us have landed after experimenting for years.

Was just thrown off because a 50/200 is usually touted for defensive weapons that are looking to hit minute of man at those distances quickly. Which then makes a 25 yard adjustment moot.

best of luck with the setup!

 

[RNR]

Yeah, I read it (a couple times). I was going beyond your original question to get you to think about where many of us have landed after experimenting for years.

Was just thrown off because a 50/200 is usually touted for defensive weapons that are looking to hit minute of man at those distances quickly. Which then makes a 25 yard adjustment moot.

best of luck with the setup!

I appreciate that and it is so noted...who knows, maybe I will end up on the 100yrd side of the line too but if/when I do, the experimenting is likely to have given me added insight. Tough thing now is that "experimenting" uses up hard to find ammo on top of it being much more expensive than it used to be.

I'll add that for my personal practical application, expectations of needing precision accuracy is in the 50-200 range...at least more often than at 100-300 but really, adjustments can be made either way so I'm not too worried---My initial post was just pondering the math

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Turretgunner....errr crabbysoccer, had a meeting with the ban cat. I bet we don't see him again...under that screen name anyway.

I won't miss his input. To me he had more BS than valid input, I had a tendency to read past him. There are a few cranky folks here that have good input, they've probably earned their attitude.