Rifle Scopes Zeroing Rifle with 20 MOA Rail

[Vodoun daVinci]

Long story short I'll be pushing my ranges out next Spring and when I added my new scope (50 MOA total elevation travel) and got it zero'd at 100 with a laser cartridge I ended up using 20+ MOA of potential elevation to get it zero'd leaving me with only roughly 25 MOA of up elevation. So, I added an EGW 20 MOA rail and while setting up/zeroing this weekend I am now at the rock bottom and then some. Haven't been to the range yet but with a laser boresight I'm not getting enough down elevation to get a zero at 100 yards.

Then I noticed that EGW ( and others...) recommend a 200 yard zero with a 20 MOA rail.

What say you guys? I don't see myself shooting much inside of 200 yards after this year and If I do I could just hold for 100 yards. But I'm a newbie at this so I'm asking - with a 20 MOA rail on a 6.5 Creedmoor and 50 MOA of total elevation travel would you zero at 200 yards?

Thanks in Advance!

VooDoo

 

[FourT6and2]

You should be able to get a zero at 100 yards with a 20 MOA rail. That said, if you can zero at 200 and you have enough useable range left and you will never shoot inside 200, then ok.

But you should be able to zero at 100 and still have PLENTY of range left to get out to 1,000 yards and then some.

25 MOA = about what... 7 mil? That is nowhere near enough elevation travel left in your scope. With a 20 MOA rail, you now have about 12 mil of travel? That's better. You should actually zero your rifle by shooting it, though. The laser bore sights are useless. I wouldn't even bother. Just put a few shots on paper, adjust your scope, a few more shots to confirm, and you're done.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Did you actually shoot at 100yds before the addition of the 20MOA rail?
What distance are you using the laser at?
Check that the rail is mounted correctly and not eating some of your adjustment.

 

[308pirate]

100 yard zero with a 20 MOA rail is pretty much what everyone does. If you can't do that, there's something wrong in your setup.

 

[_Windrider_]

100 yard zero with a 20 MOA rail is pretty much what everyone does. If you can't do that, there's something wrong in your setup.

What he said.

 

[Glassaholic]

I agree with FourT, you should be able to get a 100y zero with a 20MOA rail and I have never had a need for a laser boresighter, I've been using the redneck boresight method for years with great success - remove the bolt from your rifle and look through the bore to your 100yd target, center the image, now adjust your scope to center, it is almost always somewhere on an 8.5x11 target page and sometimes very close to center, just make sure your rifle doesn't move when you adjust your scope.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Pinecone in a distant tree, or insulator on a power line for me
600 to 800 yards away the line of sight through the bore and scope are parallel.
Now click up for scope height and bullet drop at 100yd.

For you Mil guys, turn the top turret in the Up direction about a Mil

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Not shot it yet with the new scope and 20 MOA rail yet.....zeroing with laser at 100 yards. With my last scope I was within 2" first shot. The lasers are not perfect but they seem to get me on paper the first shot. Not so much with bore sighting. I'll double check my rail mount....maybe it's not down tight in the rear and adding another 2 MOA of so at 100. Generally 1 thousandth is about 1 MOA at 100 yards.

When you guys mount yer scope, how much total elevation to you use to get to zero? Half of it? I'd guess it depends on the scope.

I'm sighting on an object at a known distance measured via range finder and Google Earth. My last scope had 45 MOA of total travel and was shooting <.5 MOA at 100 yards consistently. I was running out of elevation at 1000 yards.

VooDoo

 

[Rocketvapor]

Mid range through the vertical usually set the optics in the factory centered position.

I'd bring it up as much as you can but don't have it on the stops and fire it. Leave a couple clicks.
Shoot and see where it hits.


I have an Athlon 8-34X56 Aeros with a little more than 45 MOA total and a 20 MOA mount on an AR (about 2.5" above bore)
I can zero at 100. Uses a lot of the adjustment but not quite all.
My pine cone bore sight with a newly mounted barrel, Scope, and 20MOA rail was pretty close @ 100yd (Clean Cold Bore Shot)
That's the first 5 through the barrel.

 

[Diver160651]

Not sure why you'g get a long range scope with only 50MOA of total travel, LR and low travel don't play nice.

No need to check your base you started off on the wrong scope. Even if you get your 100yard zero you will be in the very worst part of your optics for 99% of your shooting.

Bore sighting at 100 is ultra simple and i've also never been more than a couple mils /7min off. The only trick other than having the gun very stable is to learn to use the bores shadows to ensure your completely centered up.

Really, the short answer is get a better scope for your purpose.

 

[Magnumitis]

I did this exact thing yesterday while changing ring height yesterday. 20moa EGW rail, zero at 200, still enough dial to get me out to 1700 with 140 eld-m with no hold over. I have no reason to start at 100.

 

[308pirate]

What scope are we talking about here?

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Athlon Argos BTR 10-40X56.

VooDoo

 

[Rocketvapor]

I have a 22 Nosler and a similar scope. I have Several MOA Up available from my 100 yard zero which I could easily click up for a 200, 300 or 600 yd zero (11.5 MOA)
Zero where you like. Click.
How far before I run out of adjustment?
What range is my scope optics "centered" (I lose about 3 MOA of the total range just to get to 100) ?
I thought about getting a scope with about 100MOA adjustment range or one of those adjustable mounts with 160 MOA adjustment.

BTW, sighting in, practicing at my local 100 yd range, clicking up 11.5MOA got the avatar @ 600.
CCBS sighter, and it went down hill from there

I get a couple good shots, I brag
Voodoo, I suspect you and I are not highly experienced Long Range shooters.
Never been out past 600 myself.
Find myself looking at those "Exit 1 Mile" signs (kidding of course)
Give it a try, and good luck pushing it out.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Theoretically 50 MOA of elevation gets my 6.5 CM out to 1200 - 1400 yards which is as far as I'll be shooting in this Lifetime and about the max effective range for this cartridge. I can see myself shooting further eventually but I'll shoot a round more effective if that happens....new gun, new scope!

My goal in adding the 20 MOA rail was to use more of the total elevation in the up direction as anything below zero is basically never going to get used.

I'm gonna double check my base but I'm pretty sure it's OK. I'll need to actually shoot it and see if I can actually get it zero'd at 100 with bullet drop. It's right on the edge of being on the very bottom of travel now but that's looking straight line with a bore laser and does include any bullet drop.

Guess I'll have to brave the cold and the rain and get out there and punch some holes.

VooDoo

 

[Diver160651]

I have a 22 Nosler and a similar scope. I have Several MOA Up available from my 100 yard zero which I could easily click up for a 200, 300 or 600 yd zero (11.5 MOA)
Zero where you like. Click.
How far before I run out of adjustment?
What range is my scope optics "centered" (I lose about 3 MOA of the total range just to get to 100) ?
I thought about getting a scope with about 100MOA adjustment range or one of those adjustable mounts with 160 MOA adjustment.

BTW, sighting in, practicing at my local 100 yd range, clicking up 11.5MOA got the avatar @ 600.
CCBS sighter, and it went down hill from there

I get a couple good shots, I brag
Voodoo, I suspect you and I are not highly experienced Long Range shooters.
Never been out past 600 myself.
Find myself looking at those "Exit 1 Mile" signs (kidding of course)
Give it a try, and good luck pushing it out.

At 100: Generally you lose your SOB plus gravity - that’s based on velocity. Crooked actions or Barrels aside.

So with a 2.5 SOB + typical 2” of gravity you add them together for you elevation loss estimate

 

[Rocketvapor]

Seems that with an 88 ELD at 2880 I will run out of adjustment and have to hold over using the recticle at about the same range I go trans-sonic.
I get less drop with the 80 ELD @ 600 but gain a little windage with the 88. Windage is my short suit.
One day I'll move over to the 1000 yd side.

Voodoo, went back and read some of your posts.
I also used a cheap 6-24X50 Crossfire, and got Doug to pricematch the 8-34X56 Aeros MOA (have to bring a calculator to figure my Mil dope).
I have no issues with full mag at 600 on cold days. Will have to wait to see when it's hot.
If the weather permits I go back for my 5th 600yd shoot later this month.
Kitchen Maid AR-15, 28" X-Caliber, BCA side charge, Warne 20MOA from BGS, oh and no gas.
Shot next to some nice rigs that cost as much as my 2nd hand Tundra.
One was a sand colored Bullpup thing with I think a VX6 and a cute little bipod with shiny points.
Most of them shot much better scores than I did.

 

[Kraze]

Seems like a strange scope choice for a long range optic. 1/8 MOA adjustments, SFP accurate at 40x magnification, 50 MOA total elevation adjustment. Seems like it would be better suited for a rimfire rifle to be honest.

As others have said though, definitely need to go out and actually shoot it to get your true zero to see where you're at. You'll be damn near the bottom of your adjustments though with a 20 MOA rail on a scope with only 50 MOA of total adjustment, and as Diver said, that's going to put you at the worst part of your optics for a lot of your shooting.

 

[Rocketvapor]

"that's going to put you at the worst part of your optics for a lot of your shooting. "
I don't know about the 6.5 but with my little 22 (Nosler) Optics centered I lose right at 3 to 3.5 MOA of the total range.
Just guessing, without the 20MOA mount I could adjust 20 to 22 MOA up. That doesn't make it to 900 yds.
Not going full up, maybe only 11.5 up I get 600yds.

Adding the 20 MOA mount, I make 100yds but I'm in that worst place on that end.
Going to full up on the scope, the other worst place, I should be able to go up 40 MOA from a 100yd zero or so. That doesn't make 1400yds or a MILE.
But, just 10 MOA up from the optical center of the scope, minus the SOB loss, Plus 20 MOA for the mount gets me close to 1000Yds.

600 and 1000 yds F-Open is what I put this together for.
Voodoo has a larger (by a little) adjustment range and a 6.5.

What's the scope recommendation for shooting paper/steel at 100 to maybe 1400yds?

 

[Kraze]

What's the scope recommendation for shooting paper/steel at 100 to maybe 1400yds?

Something with enough elevation to get you there and preferably not be zeroed at the very bottom of your adjustment range lol. It really would depend on budget though. A budget optic for shooting steel out to 1400 yards, my personal choice would probably be the SWFA 12x. 12x might not be enough magnification for some, but I've shot out past 1000 yards with my SWFA 10x.

But if we're talking F Class recommendations, I'm really not the right guy for that as I've never shot F Class and don't plan to, but it would seem that a lot of the F Class guys like the Sightron scopes, Vortex Golden Eagle, etc. That's probably a topic for another thread though.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Seems like a strange scope choice for a long range optic. 1/8 MOA adjustments, SFP accurate at 40x magnification, 50 MOA total elevation adjustment. Seems like it would be better suited for a rimfire rifle to be honest.

Sounds like a short-to-mid range F-Class or Benchrest optic to me. Definitely not anything I'd want to run out to 1k or use on a PRS rifle.

 

[Kraze]

Sounds like a short-to-mid range F-Class or Benchrest optic to me. Definitely not anything I'd want to run out to 1k or use on a PRS rifle.

Yeah, that too. I just know when I looked it up on Athlon's website, I thought it would be pretty sweet for my 22 lr haha.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I'll have to go look it up. Some day, after I master 600 and 1000 I would like to try longer.
You can bet that if I ever had a hit at a mile you would be seeing picks of it and hopefully a Youtube video of it.
But, it will be a while.
Going off to look for a SWFA 10 or 12X.
I did see some better scopes on the 600 line but WAY out of budget.
Got some snickering showing up with an Athlon on an AR though. That was cool
haha

 

[Rocketvapor]

This one?
https://www.swfa.com/swfa-ss-12x42-tactical-30mm-riflescope-3.html
It's got 100 MOA adjustment, wow.

Same price as my Athlon.

So, with a 20MOA rail I could get to almost 70 MOA up.
A 40 MOA rail, still get down to 100 and about 90 MOA up.
There's the mile

 

[Kraze]

This one?
https://www.swfa.com/swfa-ss-12x42-tactical-30mm-riflescope-3.html
It's got 100 MOA adjustment, wow.

Same price as my Athlon.

Yep, that's the one (well, I prefer the Mil ones but if you're set on MOA, then that's the one). For banging steel on a budget, they're pretty hard to beat. They routinely go on sale for 250-260. Memorial Day might be the next sale they have though.

Again, if this is for your F Class setup, that might not be what you want though. I'll defer to someone that's actually shot F Class for those recommendations

 

[Rocketvapor]

Look, I spend a lot of time just casual paper @ 100.
Had hoped to eventually get to 600, now I have my eyes on 1000yd.
A video of me hitting something smaller than a See Rock City barn roof at a mile might happen some day.

1 mile: 87MOA up, a little over 12 feet with a 5mph wind.
Sounds doable.

 

[Steel+Killer]

Do yourself a favor take that laser bore sighter and throw it in the trash! You don't need to waste your time bore sighting either. Go by Office Depot or Staples and get a poster board or any piece of paper about 36" square or bigger put one dot in the middle set it up at 100 yards and take one carefully aimed shot at that one dot in the middle. If your scope is mounted properly and it is at its mechanical center you should be somewhere on that piece of paper or poster board from there you can zero your scope. By the way if you are using 20 MOA rail then you should go ahead and adjust down 20 MOA before your first shot if not you may be way high. I have done it this way for about 10 years now and I have never not been on a 36" piece of paper at 100 yards when my scope has been installed correctly. No need to waste time with a laser bore sighter that you might accidentally forget you left in the barrel and then kaboom and no need to waste ammo at 25 yards either.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I'm not shooting PRS - I mostly shoot for fun, punching paper and steel so far out to 1000 yards a couple times. 12X is not enough magnification as I'm mostly shooting /will be shooting 200 - 1200 yards and spotting my own. What I'm doing is probably closer the F-class than anything else. Last season I was running out of elevation at 1000 yards running a Vortex Crossfire II 6-24X50 with 40 MOA on a flat rail. I wanted more magnification, thinner reticle with a floating center dot, and more travel. I wanted a Vortex Golden Eagle (after shooting a gun buddies gun with one on it) which gives me everything and and 55 MOA of elevation but didn't have $1400.

The Athlon looks really good for 1/3rd the price of the Golden Eagle and a reticle that is virtually identical. I can get everything I need out of it for what I'm doing. I was just concerned that my scope was bottomed out at 100 yards but now I'll have virtually all of that 50 MOA of elevation available which gets me out to 1400ish roughly at the high end and roughly in the middle at 1000 yards instead of maxed out.

Really impressed with the Athlon Argos for a sub $400 scope...if it tracks as good as it looks glass wise I'm happy.

VooDoo

 

[Rocketvapor]

You don't think you would like to shoot a mile?
It's on my bucket list now.
Thanks guys.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I might some day. Not in the cards for season #2 and as I said earlier I'd likely want to run .338 Lapua at a mile. We'll see. I hammered stuff the first time out at 600 and at 1000 even with having to hold over at 100 yards. Still hit 10 out of ten from the first round.

I just realized by self learning and experience that had I missed I'd never spot my splash at 1000 yards with a 24X scope.

VooDoo

 

[Rocketvapor]

Set a camera out close to 1000 yards.
Tape that Laser to the target.
Post to youtube
Get the gist?




poster board @ 100yards? My god

 

[Kraze]

Well it sounds like you knew the pros/cons of the scope going into it, so if it works for you and what you're doing, then by all means, stick with it. Hell, if you dial in your wind you'll have an extra 10 MOA in the reticle too for those times you want to push it out even farther.

 

[Subwrx300]

I'd still use a 100yd zero as long as it tracks normally from 100 up through say 30-40moa. As long as 100yd zero is possible without bottoming out, there is no reason not to use it.

Easier to confirm zero at 100 than 200: less wind effect and environmental variables have lower effect also. Will make your like easier at distance trying to match up actual data with calculator.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Enjoyed the conversation, learned stuff, set a new long range goal, no one got a time out.
Just love SH

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Yup. Me too. SH is the place to get the skinny on this stuff....can't think of anywhere else on The Web one can find this much great information and help in a mere couple hours.

I gotta shoot this scope and see where it all comes out. It's gonna be damn close if not right on bottomed out at 100.

VooDoo

 

[Beisel]

dumb question, but what action? You had 25 moa left of up travel when zeroed @ 200 yards, with zero base, and cant get zeroed at 100 after addition of 20 moa base, Correct? Difference from 100 to 200 should not have been more than 2moa.

 

[FourT6and2]

I don't get the laser sight and bore sight routine. I've never done either. Set scope to mechanical center. Mount it. If it's mounted on a 20 MOA rail, then adjust scope 20 MOA or 5 mil to compensate for rail, which puts scope back on center for the rifle it's on. Take a shot on paper at 100 yards. I've never seen it be off more than a mil. On both of my rifles I was only off by about 4/10s. That's 4 clicks. Boom. Zeroed.

Some people start at 50 yards and bore sight. And then zero. And then go to 100 and do the same thing. Why? Seems unnecessary.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

For you. First time I mounted my Vortex on a bore sighted rifle I had to literally walk out to the target to get on paper at 100 yards....it's was about 15" low on the target. The laser boresight is cool for us amateurs and newbies.

VooDoo

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

A little off topic but I think listing travel and base tilt should be in mils not MOA...

20 MOA seems to the casual fella like a lot, but it isn't at all. If that base said like 6 or 7 it would seem more like what it actually is. A small assist...

 

[Lowlight]

Some mark bases in both Mils and MOA: See Spuhr

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

dumb question, but what action? You had 25 moa left of up travel when zeroed @ 200 yards, with zero base, and cant get zeroed at 100 after addition of 20 moa base, Correct? Difference from 100 to 200 should not have been more than 2moa.

No. The scope I had was zero'd at 100 yards and had roughly 25 MOA left. I removed that scope and added a new scope and a new 20 MOA rail and now I'm bottoming out trying to laser bore site at 100 yards. The gun is a Savage 10 FCP in 6.5 Creedmoor and has been a tack driver other than running out of available elevation with the old scope/0 MOA rail and it's very difficult to self spot splash at 600-1000 yards with only 24x of Magnification and big fat reticle.

Sorry if I confused stuff upstream.

VooDoo

 

[308pirate]

First time I mounted my Vortex on a bore sighted rifle I had to literally walk out to the target to get on paper at 100 yards...

Ummm.......You first mount the scope, then boresight the rifle, then (without disputing the bore alignment with the target) you adjust the windage and elevation so the reticle is on target.

You don't boresight the rifle, then try to mount the scope on it.........That's probably why you can't get it to work.

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

Some mark bases in both Mils and MOA: See Spuhr

They should probably send me a royalty check for the idea (time travel involved obviously and that was expensive)

 

[Rocketvapor]

Deleted, No need for more distractions.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

We are completely off on a weird tangent which I'll take the blame for. I'm not dumb enough to do what yer describing....I mounted the scope, looked thru the bore and adjusted the reticle to point at the middle of what I was looking at about 30 yards away without disturbing the gun. Evidently my view thru the barrel was not even close as the gun was not even close to being on paper. Way off. My fault.

Newbie mistake. In subsequent mounting I used a cheapie laser cartridge and aligned the bore of the gun to a bullseye at 100 yards and adjusted the recticle to center on the laser spot. First round was within 2" of where I aimed it. So I use the laser and it works great.

VooDoo

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

OK, first of all thanks for all the help I have solved it. Tonight I pulled it all apart and had a good look at the new 20 MOA rail which was not flush with the top of the receiver at the rear. I could see light under the back of the rail...like the thickness of a piece of paper....3 thousandths? Basically 3 MOA or 3ish inches at 100 yards.

Discovered I had cross threaded the rear rail screws and in doing so they clicked the torque driver but not because they were all the way down. I removed all screws and ran a tap thru the two cross threaded holes, grabbed new screws and remounted the rail. Then re mounted the scope from scratch. Popped the laser cartridge in the chamber and sighted my mark that has been verified at 107.36 yards with the bore laser and matched the reticle to it. It all works out now and the elevation turret has 1 MOA (8 clicks) up off of the bottom which means I have 49 MOA of available elevation.

Strelok tells me I can dial 1400 yards with my 147 gr. ELDM's running 2700 fps which they are.

Super thanks to everyone for the brain ticklers. Upsteam someone has said that there was something wrong with my setup and this is exactly correct. I fucked up but I fixed it. I'll report back when I shoot this but I'm thinking we are good to go now.

VooDoo

 

[FourT6and2]

Discovered I had cross threaded the rear rail screws and in doing so they clicked the torque driver but not because they were all the way down. I removed all screws and ran a tap thru the two cross threaded holes, grabbed new screws and remounted the rail.

Hopefully it holds zero.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I just realized by self learning and experience that had I missed I'd never spot my splash at 1000 yards with a 24X scope.

Why not?

 

[Steel+Killer]

poster board @ 100yards? My god

I only say use a poster board or something around 36" square just in case the scope is not at its mechanical center and or a very poor shooter.....LOL

 

[FourT6and2]

I only say use a poster board or something around 36" square just in case the scope is not at its mechanical center and or a very poor shooter.....LOL

That's why you mechanically center the scope before zeroing. Center the scope, compensate for the cant of your rail if it has one, take a shot. You'll be on paper at 100. Typical NRA target they have at most ranges is 14" x 14". If your zero is 7 MOA (4 MIL) off in any direction when you try to zero, you got some problems in the system somewhere, no?