CCI BR-4 vs. CCI 450, and the Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor case.

[Supersubes]

Questions about appropriate primers for the new Lapua 6.5 CM brass have come up a lot lately. The other question frequently asked is the difference between CCI 450's and the BR-4. Many understand the relationship between small rifle and small rifle magnum primers to be the same as the relationship between large rifle and large rifle magnum primers, which is that the magnum primers are stronger than their standard counterparts. I'm only addressing CCI small rifle here. My understanding about the BR-4 and 450 was that they were essentially identical, with the BR-4 being "match grade". I was told this years ago by a CCI representative, but never tested it myself.

I took 20 random cases and seated half with BR-4's and the other half with 450's. The load is in the pic below. No sorting or truing of any component was done. Just assembled using basic tools. The firing order is as shown in the first pic below. The string was fired continuously with only short breaks to refill magazines and record velocity data every five rounds. It was pretty hot out, so the barrel was too hot to hold onto at the end. Two foulers were fired before the test began.

Based upon the velocities between the two, I think it's clear that the amount of priming mixture is identical. I don't know when each of these primer lots were manufactured, but kudos to CCI for being consistent. I've been buying these for a long time, in large quantities, and frankly they could have been manufactured years apart. Maybe I'll look into that. They are stored in my garage, which ranges in temps from the 40's to a little over 100 in the summer. Humidity in southern cali is pretty low.

Based on these results, save your money and buy the 450's. I wont be buying any more BR-4's. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170504\/872f480757dcefd4a282f0aa528123c4.jpg"}[/IMG2]








BR-4 on the left, 450 on the right. There were no real outliers. They look identical in every way, so the cups must be the same. I've been about 80 fps faster than this with these components in this rifle, and never experienced piercing with either of these primers. The load fired today is a year round safe load that is very insensitive to varying conditions. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170504\/7d5a4f85c224a011d1b0daf7d4ef8967.jpg"}[/IMG2]









BR-4: You can see the remnants of the "B" in the indentation at 12 o'clock. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170504\/7d144903648b19285593f9e37e2afa0c.jpg"}[/IMG2]







450: Looks identical to me. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170504\/f38253cfa43772de774d886e7f66a59b.jpg"}[/IMG2]








Accuracy: Despite the velocities being identical, the 450 edged the BR-4 in accuracy. Man that flyer pissed me off! [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170504\/d0f70f3b8c3b4c7f3b204e2e05176a07.jpg"}[/IMG2]








Some people do seem to have issues with piercing primers in the AI rifles. I have the worst firing pin i've seen in my AW. I have about 5000 rounds through this rifle, and have pierced perhaps 3-4 primers, when I first started shooting 6.5X47. I busted off the sharp edge with some 400 grit sandpaper. That seems to have made the primer indentation a little nicer looking. This pin measures .077' in diameter. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170504\/a1f38378b28b3f7266ed04342c930afa.jpg"}[/IMG2]







Standard Remington 700 pin for comparison. My AXMC pin has a profile like this. This measures .075 in diameter. [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170504\/65770548fc3310a9ca1b58107c663de5.jpg"}[/IMG2]











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[pwmr_rob]

Dude sick post, thank you for this. I've been wanting to get some lapua cases and 450's to try but I've got a 700 with the standard pin, you think that it's a non issue? Based off what I see here i think I might be good

 

[Fishkat]

Nice info and great write up, should be helpful for a lot of folks beginning to use Lapua like me. I'll be trying the Lapua 6.5 creed brass tomorrow for the first time, using 450's and 130 vld's to compare results to my established data using Hornady brass, Fed primers and the 130 vld's. Also using H4350 at 43.6 to 43.8 depending on the time of year, MV averages about 2950. Like you I'm using a Broughton barrel but at 26". Thanks for the post.

 

[Supersubes]

Dude sick post, thank you for this. I've been wanting to get some lapua cases and 450's to try but I've got a 700 with the standard pin, you think that it's a non issue? Based off what I see here i think I might be good

I think the piercing has more to do with pin fit in the bolt face, pin profile, and pin protrusion. Mostly it's a non-issue, but some do have a serious issue that holds them back, and bushing the pin is the answer. LRI can knock the pin bushing out at a later date if needed. It's a hundred bucks, and they turn stuff around seriously quick.

This post was more for comparing the primers themselves. The fact that I used the lapua creedmoor case is incidental, but relevant given the amount of questions about them. I dont think the lapua brass presents any real problems when pressure limits are adhered to. Again, there's always the posibiliy of an exception. I say go for it. Since Ive been testing Peterson brass lately, they'll be introducing a small primer creedmoor soon. I'll test those as well when I can get my hands on them.

 

[Jimmy31593]

I am running the standard 400s in my lapua creedmoor brass. Seem to be working great for me. Sd are low, speed is good.

 

[Supersubes]

I am running the standard 400s in my lapua creedmoor brass. Seem to be working great for me. Sd are low, speed is good.

Exactly, I dont doubt that for a moment. Can you share the basics of your load/ rifle combo? I think people would be interested in that.

 

[Jimmy31593]

Bighorn tl3
Barrel is a little over 26"
6.5 creedmoor
43.8 grains h4350
140rdf

I have to look up the velocity tomorrow. If I remember correctly I was pushing over 2900. Just getting all of my tuning done now. Still have to play with seating depth to get these RDFs shooting exactly the way I want.

 

[davere]

Nicely done - thank you!

 

[1MoreAR]

Thanks for the write up. I'm gathering some info before switching to Lapua 6.5 CM brass.

 

[Supersubes]

I was looking at my close-up pics today and noticed the the br-4 appeared a little flatter. I went back and inspected all of them under magnification and found that they vary a bit in flatness across both types.


BR-4
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170505\/91b6f0a5891cdf515adb2cc2bcff3941.jpg"}[/IMG2]

450
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170505\/56bc87e39bb1baf5a3384ae51cbe0f13.jpg"}[/IMG2]

This was the worst of the group and happens to be a 450. This is the very beginning of a pierce in my gun. Still quite a but of room here.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com\/20170505\/54c03d24286bfa619184dc29de0ef4ab.jpg"}[/IMG2]




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[Rockhurr]

Where are your pictures? I see links only.

 

[MysizeisMAGNUM]

Where are your pictures? I see links only.

#Metoo

 

[Supersubes]

Where are your pictures? I see links only.

Not sure where the pics went. The readers digest is that they were exactly the same. Lol

 

[Vmax97]

The picture links are no longer formatted correctly. I was able to take remove one of the slashes "//" to "/" in the URL and get them to come up. I also found this chart of primer dimensions. I am going to lean towards CCI 450s for small rifle and Federal 215M for large. I have not gone to small primer for 6.5 CM

Write-up:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/872f480757dcefd4a282f0aa528123c4.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170505/56bc87e39bb1baf5a3384ae51cbe0f13.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170505/91b6f0a5891cdf515adb2cc2bcff3941.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/65770548fc3310a9ca1b58107c663de5.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/a1f38378b28b3f7266ed04342c930afa.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/d0f70f3b8c3b4c7f3b204e2e05176a07.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170504/7d5a4f85c224a011d1b0daf7d4ef8967.jpg

 

[Crabcore]

Awesome Post. I also use 450s in my 6.5x47L.
With the PrecisionRifleBlog's post about load info, I was surprised there were not more comments about primer choice. It looks like a lot of the top shooters are also choosing the 450 over the BR4. This is some excellent data to back that up.

 

[Safety_3rd]

I'm curious about primer pocket size and multiple firings. I'm loading 6bra. My first set of 100 I loaded with 450 for fire forming and all 100 rounds had no issue. My second set of virgin lapua brass u loaded with br4 and had two rounds that did not go off. The primer strikes looked good (terminus zues action). I'm curious if the extra height, albeit very small difference would be the reason these two rounds did not have ignition. The other question I have is the br4 are slightly larger in diameter.0005 larger. If I've loaded 100 rounds with the br4 and want to go back to the 450 are the primer pockets loser than a pocket that's only been loaded with 450s? I'm using the chart above for reference.

 

[Govt Mule]

First question on primer strikes: If you are fire forming 6BRA from 6BR brass you should jam the bullet into the lands at least .005 so you good "push" against the bolt face to ensure ignition. Sometimes you have to fire it a second time to make ignite with the harder cup primers.

You won't be able to tell the difference between the primers, unless you shot a really hot load initially. Any primer will seem looser in the pocket if you shoot hot loads. That's why I shoot a low pressure round the first firing to harden the primer pockets.