F T/R Competition (Updated) Tested a few loads....

[BigtimeAub]

Ok, it's time for the experts to tear me a new one. I tested 5 different loads today at the range and I think I know what I need to know, but I want to get your thoughts and explanations of what is going on here.

As you can see, I used a piece of poster board that had graph lines on it. I traced (very poorly) the horizontal lines in black. The black lines are 1 inch apart while the faint blue lines are 1/2" apart. I just did that so that I could see the vertical dispersion more clearly as I was shooting. I know that I should have done this on a 300 yard range, or at the very least 200. I zeroed my rifle at 100 yards(this is the longest range that I have access to spur of the moment and I wouldn't have had another chance to go to a range for another 3 weeks or so) with some Southwest Ammo but then went down in elevation on my scope by two full minutes. I did that so that I could aim at the "bullseye" that I had drawn but have the rounds hit lower so that the "bullseye" wouldn't get in the way of actually seeing the different colors of the rounds.

The loads (.308):
175smk
Varget powder
Lapua brass
Federal 210 primers
OAL - 2.810

The rounds were color coded as:
Black = 43gr
Orange = 43.5gr
Green = 44gr
Blue = 44.5gr
Red = 45gr

Looking at the 43gr group, there was only 4 holes. Neither Troy nor I have any idea where that 5th round went to. It was actually the 3rd round of the group. I shot the first three groups and then realized (duh) that I needed to break up my groups so that they weren't all on top of each other (I was hoping that the hotter loads would move a little further up the board than they did, my inexperience shines bright). I shot the 44.5gr group to the left, the 45gr group to the right, and all groups on the same horizontal plane. It looks to me like 45gr is going to be my magic load. The one flyer that you see in that group was all my fault. I accidentally got lazy and didn't load the bipod the same. It was actually the second shot of the group. I would like to load some groups of 45gr now but try different OALs now to see if I can pull that group in tighter. I may have said several things wrong but hopefully you'll understand what I was trying to say and you'll be kind enough to correct me. So, what do you think? What did I do right (if anything), what did I do wrong (probably everything, I know)?

 

[lal357]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

i know its short notice but i'm going to the range saturday morning if you want to shoot 300 yds if not i may be going again next weekend also. let me know

larry

 

[BigtimeAub]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lal357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i know its short notice but i'm going to the range saturday morning if you want to shoot 300 yds if not i may be going again next weekend also. let me know

larry </div></div>

Thanks Larry, but I'll be in Savannah, GA this weekend and I'm going to the gun show in Montgomery the next weekend with a buddy to get a few things and we'll probably be there all morning. I'm going to get some more rounds loaded up, and some new 208Amax loads, and I'll let you know so that we can go out and do some real work on a real range. I'll even let you help me get some chrono numbers.

 

[XTR]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

It's hard to tell at 100 yards, and not picking but I'd expect tighter groups.

Group size indicates some problems, at 100 yards you should literally be shooting ragged holes.

Here are 3 groups I shot last year with my old barrel and some loads I had left over after a match. (barrel had ~2400 when I shot these)

BTW, you can download a free version of OnTarget, it is very useful for analyzing groups.

That said, the problems could be you or the load but with a custom rifle I'm betting you. Did you make sure you adjusted all the parallax out? It will make a one hole group into a 1MOA group every time.

Your red group shows horizontal stringing, that's often trigger pull not straight, or pressure from your cheek or not being square.

Another thing, if you buy the OCW system it's not only group size that is important, it is group centers in relation to the POA. You are looking for two or three groups that are very close to the same location.

Looking at your groups the center of the orange, green and blue groups are almost on top of one another. The black is a little lower and the red is a little higher, and if you discount the low flyers in the red orange and green groups it is more obvious. And it turns out that is in the node that several others including myself have found with 175s and Varget at about 44.0 to 44.5.

My suggestion is load them at 44.2 and get them back .020 off of the lands and see how they do. Start working on your form and trigger pull.

 

[lal357]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

gunshow is this weekend 10th and 11th

i picked up a lead sled to take the me out of my groups havent tried it yet but i figured what the hell it was on sale . i agree with xtr at 100 it should be 1 hole one thing i found aout about mine is i need to aneal them when i was seating my heads i felt different pressure when seating them.

we'll get together sometime and goto the range i'm thinking about trying to get you ,me ,my son and maybe one of your buds to go out there and have a little match. it would be some good practice for me and kevin(son) we have a team match next month and a regular match in may.

 

[BigtimeAub]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lal357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gunshow is this weekend 10th and 11th

i picked up a lead sled to take the me out of my groups havent tried it yet but i figured what the hell it was on sale . i agree with xtr at 100 it should be 1 hole one thing i found aout about mine is i need to aneal them when i was seating my heads i felt different pressure when seating them.

we'll get together sometime and goto the range i'm thinking about trying to get you ,me ,my son and maybe one of your buds to go out there and have a little match. it would be some good practice for me and kevin(son) we have a team match next month and a regular match in may. </div></div>

I don't know why I said Montgomery, the show is in Columbus, I got my weekends mixed up. But yeah, I could get a buddy to go if you don't mind him using a brake on his rifle. I think it would be fun to shoot a match. I've actually never shot a match against this guy, but it would be fun, he's a pretty good shot.

 

[XTR]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lal357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gunshow is this weekend 10th and 11th

... one thing i found aout about mine is i need to aneal them when i was seating my heads i felt different pressure when seating them.

... </div></div>

Consistent neck tension is critical to consistent MV. If you don't turn necks, and face it, who really wants to, get a Lee Collet sizer. Less than $30 from Midway and they will improve your loads. Maybe not enough to satisfy the BR crowd but my vertical at 1000 vanished when I started using one. Annealing should not be needed till you have reloaded the same brass five times or so.

 

[BigtimeAub]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

The only explanations that I have for such poor groupings is that I was shooting from a bench with a bipod and it was just really awkward, not the most conducive circumstances for precision shooting. The bench was too high or the stool was too low. But yes, the biggest problem is still me. This rifle only has 290 rounds through it. While most people on this forum have shot into the thousands of rounds in this style of shooting, I've only shot around 320 or so, so I'm still learning to say the least. I'll take everything you said and try to apply it the best I can the next time I go out and see what happens. Thanks for the advice.

 

[remau308]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigtimeAub</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lal357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gunshow is this weekend 10th and 11th

i picked up a lead sled to take the me out of my groups havent tried it yet but i figured what the hell it was on sale . i agree with xtr at 100 it should be 1 hole one thing i found aout about mine is i need to aneal them when i was seating my heads i felt different pressure when seating them.

we'll get together sometime and goto the range i'm thinking about trying to get you ,me ,my son and maybe one of your buds to go out there and have a little match. it would be some good practice for me and kevin(son) we have a team match next month and a regular match in may. </div></div>

I don't know why I said Montgomery, the show is in Columbus, I got my weekends mixed up. But yeah, I could get a buddy to go if you don't mind him using a brake on his rifle. I think it would be fun to shoot a match. I've actually never shot a match against this guy, but it would be fun, he's a pretty good shot. </div></div>

I am down to go, just get a date together so I can plan around it. I have a Surefire brake, but if you don't want to put up with it I do have a thread protector. I will just have to rezero since I will have a little shift.

 

[lal357]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

brake wont bother me you can just shoot next to bigtimeaub but not sure about who else might be there shooting. most of the time there are 2 cmp shooters there practicing it might be a good idea to bring the thread protector just encase. right now i'm looking at the 24th of march.

 

[BigtimeAub]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lal357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">brake wont bother me you can just shoot next to bigtimeaub but not sure about who else might be there shooting. most of the time there are 2 cmp shooters there practicing it might be a good idea to bring the thread protector just encase. right now i'm looking at the 24th of march. </div></div>

The 24th is good for me.

 

[remau308]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

I should be able to make the 24th as well

 

[lal357]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

meet up at the cold keg store like we did last time about 9am sound good to ya'll.?

 

[BigtimeAub]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lal357</div><div class="ubbcode-body">meet up at the cold keg store like we did last time about 9am sound good to ya'll.? </div></div>

Yep, sounds good to me.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

Looking at your groups, the 45.0gr group looks most promising, and is pretty much in line with generic Varget/175SMK loads that have been worked out here over time.

I'd not sweat the 'missing round'. The likeliest explanaton is two rounds in one hole. Not as rare a miracle as one might suspect, and with all the rounds you were shooting was actually likely to happen. If you have the target, turn it over and flatten out the edges of the holes. If one of them looks a little oval, that's your double.

Don't be put off by suggestions that your groups are large. They are what they are. Look into the subject of Parallax and learn how to deal with it.

Greg

 

[BigtimeAub]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looking at your groups, the 45.0gr group looks most promising, and is pretty much in line with generic Varget/175SMK loads that have been worked out here over time.

I'd not sweat the 'missing round'. The likeliest explanaton is two rounds in one hole. Not as rare a miracle as one might suspect, and with all the rounds you were shooting was actually likely to happen. If you have the target, turn it over and flatten out the edges of the holes. If one of them looks a little oval, that's your double.

Don't be put off by suggestions that your groups are large. They are what they are. Look into the subject of Parallax and learn how to deal with it.

Greg </div></div>

Thanks for the input. I too thought that the 45.0gr group looked the most promising out of the test. Yesterday, I went back to the range and tried a few more loads. Taking into consideration what XTR posted about the 44.2 and adjusting the seating depth to .020" off the lands, loaded groups of 44.0, 44.2, and 44.4. Just as he recommended, at an OAL of 2.886", the 44.2 was dead on vertically with virtually no climb in the 5 round test group. They were all on a line. But, I must admit that my marksmanship skills could still use a great deal of polishing as I did have some horizontal stringing. I also tried the 45.0gr load again with 44.8 and 45.2 on either side and the OAL also at 2.886" opposed to the original 2.810" as mentioned in my OP. The group was tighter here but I had some vertical stringing and one flyer (I flinched when some old man at the range tapped me on the shoulder because he wanted to see my gun when I was finished, damn the Uchee Shooting Range). The 45.0gr load didn't like the new seating depth as much so I'm going to go with the 44.2gr @ 2.886" OAL for right now but I'm definitely going to be doing more work with both loads and see what I can come up with. I hope to be able to get to a 300yd range and do some testing with various loads and get some chrono data as well. But in the mean time, I think I'm going to go with 44.2gr load.

As for the missing round, it was in the 43.0gr load group, the first group fired, and the third round of that group. Essentially, there were only two other holes on the entire board at the point that round was fired. We checked the board over and over, front and back. It was nowhere to be found. We did this before moving on to the next round, and again before moving on to the next group. If I put it through one of the first two holes, it went through so perfectly that it didn't change the shape of the hole in the slightest. I'm really not that concerned with it but just thought that I would mention it in my OP because I knew someone would have a smart remark about it if I didn't. Just heading them off was all.

But again, thanks for your input on the loads. I'll keep working on them, as well as my skills behind the trigger, and hopefully I'll be stacking rounds with the best of them before too much longer.

 

[BigtimeAub]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

XTR,

I went back to the range yesterday. I tried the 44.2 at .020" off the lands as you suggested (=2.886" OAL). Other than my horizontal stringing, it was dead on. I also ran loads of 44.0 and 44.4 with it just for reference. I also tried loads of 44.8, 45.0, and 45.2 at the new seating depth just to see what those would do. It doesn't seem to me that my rifle liked the 45.0 as much at the new seating depth. Anyway, here are the pictures so that you can see for yourself. EDIT: I should probably mention that the 44.0gr load was void because I shot it with a cold bore (I forgot take pack a few extra rounds as foulers). The first three shots were high and scattered but the last two settled in to the same area that the other two loads were in. I'll I have to go back and try that one again but only after a few foulers have been fired off.

All loads consisted of 2.886" OAL. I paid particular attention to my parallax and had it adjusted as best as I possibly could. Also of note, it was about 15 degrees warmer when I did this test in comparison to the last test. The first test was right around 60 degrees and this test was around 75. I also downloaded the target app that you suggested (the free version) but haven't had much time to play with it yet.

 

[XTR]

Re: Tested a few loads, now I need some help....

It s pretty easy to see in these. Between 44.0 and 44.4 your groups are in almost the same location, at 44.8 it has started to move up and at 44.5 it has moved way up.

Do another OCW with 44.1, 3, 5, 7 and see if you can load at 44.4 and still be in the node or if you are on the edge. You should only need 3 shots at each loading. I'm betting you can probably get 44.4, but I know you can shoot 44.3 and be in there. (My 175SMK load is right in there)

Your goal here is to get a load that +/- 0.1gr doesn't effect the POI. At 1000 changes in MV will give you vertical, but your eliminating one other possible variable so the only fluctuation in vertical will be due to variation in MV and shooting technique, not due to barrel harmonics (if you believe the voodoo)