F T/R Competition Case Life and Reloading Costs

B

b_4

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 28, 2011
70
0
53
Bexar County, TX
#1
I posted this in a thread on the reloading forum about case head separation but I wanted to share it here with the F-Class folks.

This thread in the reloading forum got me thinking about risk vs reward as it pertains to case life. By firing a case twice you have halved your case cost. Three times it is a third and so on. Eventually it begins to go asymptotic and your risk of failure (Case Head Separation) etc begins to go up greatly but your savings increase becomes minimal.

reloadingreturnonbrassc.jpg


This figure is based upon brass at a simple cost of $50/100 pieces of brass. After five firings the cost of brass per round fired is at $0.10. Doubling the number of times fired to 10 only saves $0.05 per shot.

Quite simply, five firings is a good point to balance rate of return vs risk IMHO. Just throw them away after five.
 
#5
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

I'm in line behind SNAFUBAR....send them my way, too.

Seriously, I conducted a "Test" and used the same box of 100 FGMM brass, and moderately loaded for 600 yd and 300 yd F Open, and started having to discard cases for split necks on the 17th loading. Primer pockets were still OK and no sign of head separations, or even a detectable ring (using the bent paperclip method). By the 20th loading I had lost 25 of the original 100 to split necks and discarded the whole batch. This was before annealing became a gotta-do issue and I was neck sizing mostly, only FL sizing when I had to start rodding out cases on the firing line and pissing off the match director.

I guess that my point is that if you discard cases just because you have 5 firing on them, you may just be throwing money away. If you are really and truly wearing out brass in 5 firings, I would re-evaluate what you are doing.

I'm talking Bolt-gun here, so if you're battering them through an autoloader, knock yourself out and disreguard this post.

Paul
 
#6
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

Bolt gun, full length resize and only bumping back the shoulder 15 thousandths. I am probably good to go for many more firings; however, the shooter in the other thread had a head separate after 8 firings. After 5 reloads the savings increase is greatly reduced. An additional 5 firings (10 shots instead of 5) only saves $0.05 per round.

**Correction**

Bumping 0.0015 or 1.5 thou. THanks PJ

*************
 
#8
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

Paul, there you go again using FACTS in an Internet discussion.

I'm on my 8th loading of my Lapua .308 brass and the primer pockets are still tight(ish). I full length resize for every load using a small base Redding bushing die sans the devil-spawn device known as the expander ball.

I now anneal after every firing, BTW.

What B_4 overlooks is the cumulative cost of handloading. If I have to shoot a cartridge 15 times, using his method of discarding after 5, it will take 3 new cases and the next shot will be a fourth new case. Using my method, it will take a maximum of two cases and I am still using the second one at the end of the test. Do the math from there.
 
#9
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

i'm on the first set of 308 brass i bought 2 1/2 -3 yrs ago (been loading them for so long i dont know how many times they have been reloaded) and i am just now getting some split necks i use a bushing neck size die and only fl resize(bushing die) when they get hard to chamber. i was talking to some shooters from another club who said they throw thier brass away after 5-6 firings or 1 season i told them the same thing send them my way . i examine the cases good, annealed every 4 firings and dont load to max (i load for accuracy not velocity.
 
#10
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

+ 1 lal357

I have also quit trying to keep track of exact number of firings, and anneal whenever I think about it, or have enough of one batch of brass to make the effort worthwhile. I do keep an eye on my brass when processing it and know first hand what an imminent case head separation looks like (a 1903A1 Springfield as a newbie reloader). That reminds me, I need to modify my annealer to take .223's. I have missed a few F class matches and had to shoot XTC to keep from having withdrawal symptoms from not getting to shoot.

b_4 Thanks for your original post, it is always good to get a discussion going - Helps keep one from getting complacent.

Paul
 
#11
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pjparker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Only</span> bumping 15 thou ? No wonder there's concern. Send 'em to SNAFUBAR. When I FL size I try to bump no more than .002 - .003.

Paul </div></div>

My bad, not 15 thou but 1.5, 0.0015. LOL sorry...

Here is the same chart out to 20 firings:
reloadingreturnonbrassc.jpg


At 5 shots the cost per round for brass is: $0.10
At 10 shots the cost per round for brass is $0.05
at 20 shots the cost per round for brass is $0.025

So going from 1 to 5 shots per piece of brass saves $0.40 per shot
Going from 5 to 20 shots per piece of brass saves $0.075 per shot

The point of my op remains that after 5 reloads, the savings is much lower compared to the increased risk, especially for the novice reloader. I am not trying to argue with the very experienced reloaders just making a point on risk vs. savings.

 
#12
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

b_4

I will concede to you your point of Risk vs. Cost for the <span style="text-decoration: underline">novice</span> reloader, and that the graph is parabolic, meaning that the more you load them, the less you're saving (per loading).

For the rest of us, we're just going to keep shooting - and let our brass will tell us when it's had enough.
grin.gif


Paul
 
#13
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

It is an interesting view of the reloading as savings concept. Thumbs up to the op for posting it.

For those of us spending in excess of $1.00 per case (6x47 Lapua), and in some cases over $2.00 per case (338LM), the 5 loads and toss math does not work as easily. One of the reasons I buy the more expensive brass is that its longevity is not measured in 10 firings, but more like 20 and hopefully more.

I do have and shoot Winchester 7WSM brass, and I give it a toss at roughly 10-12 firings, even with annealing every other firing and only bumping the shoulder roughly 1 thou per sizing with a custom die. At that point, the incidence of impending case head separation is high enough within a batch that I just toss the entire batch (200-300 cases) into the recycle bin and move on to the next prepped batch. Personally, when using this type of brass, I buy a bunch up front (generally 500 or more - at least enough to burn through the first barrel - so its all the same lot) knowing what will occur.

One final important aspect of brass life is how hard you run it. If you take it up to its upper boundary for pressure every firing, then its not going to last very long. With $1.75 to $2.50 brass each, that is up to the wallet of the shooter. IN my case I can afford it, but choose not to burn it out voluntarily by running it at the upper edge of a platform... UNTIL I have decided to abandon that cartridge. When that happens the brass life AND Barrel life goes to hell, as I have already decided to drop it into the recycle bin.

Lapua brass (6x47L and 338LM) takes me much further down the amortization / use curve. I do wish I could have gotten RWS brass for my 7WSM, that brass is every bit as good as Lapua for the 7WSM.

On the good side, I have never purchased new 45 ACP brass, just gathered what I shot from loaded ammo, and have been reloading them ever since. Some cases have at least 35-40 firing on them. reloading 45 ACP will save you a fortune (at least compared with buying it from a store).
laugh.gif


Jeffvn
 
#14
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

Your methodology is flawed, and the graphs are suspect because of it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: b_4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is the same chart out to 20 firings:
reloadingreturnonbrassc.jpg


At 5 shots the cost per round for brass is: $0.10
At 10 shots the cost per round for brass is $0.05
at 20 shots the cost per round for brass is $0.025

So going from 1 to 5 shots per piece of brass saves $0.40 per shot
Going from 5 to 20 shots per piece of brass saves $0.075 per shot

The point of my op remains that after 5 reloads, the savings is much lower compared to the increased risk, especially for the novice reloader. I am not trying to argue with the very experienced reloaders just making a point on risk vs. savings.

</div></div>

Denys has it right:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What B_4 overlooks is the cumulative cost of handloading. If I have to shoot a cartridge 15 times, using his method of discarding after 5, it will take 3 new cases and the next shot will be a fourth new case. Using my method, it will take a maximum of two cases and I am still using the second one at the end of the test. Do the math from there.</div></div>

This graph does nothing to suggest when your cases will fail, which is the real metric for which you should decide when to retire brass. For every reloading you can delay tossing brass your "cumulative" reloading cost per round will decrease exponentially. Carry your calculations out to 10,000 rounds using your 5 and toss method and compare it to something more realistic like 15-20 reloadings (for 308) and see how much your costs change.
 
#15
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emorse4487</div><div class="ubbcode-body">compare it to something more realistic like 15-20 reloadings (for 308)</div></div>

Not necessarily true, I'm getting ~6-8 reloads from my competition .308's (both Winchester and Lapua cases). Case life will depend wildly on how you use them. My main mode of failure is primer pockets loosening, not surprising given the pressures and velocities that I need for 1000+ yards.

As far as brass logistics goes, keeping your eyes peeled as you process your brass is the best indicator for brass health. Equally important is keeping your brass segregated by lot# and firing, so that if you find serious problem (incipient case head separation), you can throw the entire "batch" away.
 
#16
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

Darrell gives the best information and advice. I shoot mostly a 6MM Competiton Match. I have over 16 firings on Win. brass. I keep an eye on it at all times. My die is FL sizing and bumping the shoulder back just under .002. I have not blown a primer in any of this brass. I'm putting together an FTR rifle for 1000 yards in .308 and am sure that I'm going to have to run it on the upper end to compete. My practices will be the same and when a case is questionable it will get tossed. I doubt it will be after 5 firings.
 
#17
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

The point is that if you discard your cases after 5 loads simply because "you're not saving any money any more," you are wasting a lot of case life. It is better to base your decision on case life so as to match your loading practices and observations, rather than just pure cost savings.
 
#18
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

I appreciate all of the replies. I have not had an issue with my brass yet, but I read the post in the reloading forum and the shooter was one shot away from a head separation (after 8 firings) and my thought was what is the benefit of pushing your brass so far?

I understand the technical challenge involved in refining your reloading practices to extend brass life, but the financial benefit is minimal.

Great discussion and thanks for all of the replies.
 
#19
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: b_4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read the post in the reloading forum and the shooter was one shot away from a head separation (after 8 firings)
</div></div>

With all of my brass, I have a set of mechanics picks. I can run one of these inside a handful of randomly selected cases from a particular batch after each firing. The sharp end of the pick will give you good indication that there's a problem at the case head junction. If you get the slightest indicator that there's an issue there, throw the entire batch away. More good reasons for good record keeping! I always keep my "batches" of brass (same lot #, same firing, same rifle) segregated in their own labelled boxes. This makes it easy to track down all cases that have had the same treatment (firing, load, pressures, whatever).

The "pick" process might take 1-2 minutes tops to do 10-12 cases out of a batch of 300-400.

Hope this helps

Darrell
 
#21
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

Brass unless it is loaded at very high pressures usually lasts a long time and the primer pockets are the failure except in cases where the shoulders are pushed back too far. Beginning reloaders often push the shoulder back too far simply by following the instructions included with the die sets. "raise the ram all the way up screw the die until contact is made with the ram, lower the ram and screw the die 1/8 of a turn in more" or something to that effect. Most of us learn quickly that you can actually measure the headspace with a gauge and resize you brass so that it works well with your chamber.
 
#23
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

That math is wrong. After the first firing they did what they were supposed to do. Anything after that is pure cost savings. If you want to buy new brass hot rod your loads. My 338LM costs me $0.989 per shot. That is bullets, powder and primers.

If you want to divide out your cost per shot you have to include barrel life, average of cost of rest of rifle system per shots total, $0.555 per mile driven for your car, range fees, clothing allotment, targets, paint, spotters & paisters, safety equipment.
 
#24
Re: Case Life and Reloading Costs

For 1000 yard matches, I load some pretty hot 185 Bergers. After only three or four loads, I can damn near push the primers in with my finger. I don't want to take a chance of having blown primers so I pitch them and move on. But, for practice, I down load and fire 175 SMKs to save on cash and brass. The lighter loaded 175s obviously lasts much longer.

It all depends on how hot your running your loads. I really haven't calculated how much I'm really paying per round. It would probably scare me too much.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Frank Green
The cost of shooting just in components. Thought for the day!
Replies
55
Views
2K
Gogga
G
B
338 Lapua Hornady brass failing after 2 reloads
Replies
23
Views
2K
sritz05
S
J
Pushed shoulder back to far advice
Replies
7
Views
997
FredHammer
FredHammer
gbrh
Firearms WTS: HOT DEAL: AXSR Folding Rifle Dark Earth - NEW UNFIRED
Replies
11
Views
2K
gbrh
gbrh
M
Trim length and consistency
Replies
20
Views
1K
Frank Green
Frank Green
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts