So here is a new idea on shooting groups...

[Twisted]

I know everyone like to post their top notch made with unicorn tears groups to show that their rifle can do, I get it, I've done it. What I'd like to see are some same day same session multiple group sheets. What I'd love to see is 5 groups of 5 rounds each at 300 yards or greater. Not the best 5 groups of the day but go to the range, shoot 5 groups, and post them. I think it would give folks a better "average" of what a good shooter with a good rifle can expect to realistically accomplish.

I've just seen myself and many others spend way too much time chasing groups trying to compete with the single ragged hole pics often posted when I just don't think it is realistic for most people to expect that often, or ever really.

For example, I know my rifle has shot 1/2 moa groups at various distances, I shot one tonight at 300 yards with 5 rounds, but as an overall expected every day average at distance I'm getting about an MOA or slightly under. I could post that one group, which is 4 touching holes and a 5th just off, and it would appear that everything is dialed tits on but want to show that not everyone should be expecting that often as the average for the night was actually just over an MOA.

Rifle is a Rem700 in .260, trued action, Krieger 24" barrel, Premier Heritage 3-15, Atlas bipod and rear bag. I'm shooting 142 SML's at 2820fps with H4350 in Nosler brass with CCI primer.

300 yards, various seating depths as I was testing a bit, 2-4 mph winds changing directions, gusts up to 5mph.

 

[Myanmar Shave]

Or you can take the AR15.com "1 MOA ALL DAY LONG CHALLANGE"! Complete with callouts, but only goes out to 100 yards.

THE ARFCOM 1 MOA ALL DAY LONG CHALLENGE - AR15.COM

 

[JGorski]

Just happen to have 5 sets of 5 ready to shoot at 300yds, just have to wait til sat or sunday when the range opens to shoot them, one of them is a primer change(210M) with 41.6grs H4350, the other one is a primer change(210M) and 41.8grs RE17, that load that gave me a SD of 6 over a month ago, gotta try that one again but this time it's with a different ogive on the 105AMPs.

Twisted, what were you shooting on this target?

 

[TDizle]

i have a question, with further distances, wind is going to play more of a factor. Would you start to look at just the elevation grouping? granted 2-5mph isnt bad, but if it were a gusty day and the groups were horizontal...gust of wind mid/down range...what is your guys take on that?

 

[RugerSlinger]

TDizle, It really depends on if you are shooting to find accuracy nodes and tune loads or you are just shooting for groups with loads already developed. If just shooting for groups then the group is the group, if shooting to develop a load then look for vertical grouping. I dont know if that makes sense but just my though.

Twisted, someone had a thread challenging everyone to do 6- 5 shot groups at 300. I didn't look for it but you could probably find it easily

 

[Lowlight]

That AR15 1 MOA challenge is simply a copy our what we tried several years ago and everyone complained.

We tried outlawing any posting of a 3 shot group on this site and said 5 shots was the minimum. As well if you look in the site information section there is a 5x5 target to confirm any boasts of better than 1MOA shooting.

The rule also said that you could substitute the 5x5 target for a 10 shot group at 300 yards or beyond so this is hardly a new idea. We just tried to make it mandatory which didn't work.

3 Shot groups are a waste of time in most cases. Especially given what people to demonstrate with them. At times I use them for video only because of time but really they say very little.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../84873-snipers-hide-targets-downloadable.html

also we used the 21 dot drill as groups are a different skill set than shooting the dot drill we have.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...l-tactical-practice-avoiding-group-shots.html

They just copied us from several years ago.

 

[pawprint2]

It seems like some of you are calling into question the .5 or better, All Day Long-everyday-as long as I do my part, posts! Come on guys, do you really think all those posts are "inflated"? I find it hard to believe that as many posters that are shooting rifles (along with their skills) posting 1/2 MOA or better groups, many along with photos, are "stretching it". I hope I'm wrong-I'd hate to think so many guys are, what we used to call "pencil whipping" a little bit.

 

[jephthai]

Not at 300 yards, but here's how I keep track of my performance. I am trying to collect statistical data on a per-shot basis, so I create an amalgam target from the whole day's shooting. Here's a "30 shot group", which is an overlay of 10 3-shot groups. The 3-shot groups averaged 0.624 MOA, with a minimum around 0.3 and a max at 0.9. The whole thing together came in around 1.4 or 1.5 MOA (can't get to my spreadsheet right now). I consider it to be a "typically 0.7 MOA rifle when I shoot it."

I'm trying to build a mathematical model of how to predict group sizes based on other group sizes. E.g., is there a consistent statistical relationship between 3-shot groups and N-shot groups. I've tested now with several rifles of different inherent precision capability, and I've been finding some interesting things. It's fun to treat this like science.

<a href="http://imgur.com/e2AMWVW"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/e2AMWVW.jpg" title="Hosted by imgur.com"/></a>

 

[308sniper147]

I like that "30 shit group" haha! Seems to be a very accurate rifle and a good method

 

[gstaylorg]

I'm rather shocked to hear that some might question the validity of a rifle that will shoot "under a minute all day long" (LOL). Of course you can see these kind of posts on many shooting forums. Like everything else, some are probably true, some not, I usually don't think too much about it. Since the issue has been raised though, here is one that does and Logan definitely built a winner:

GAP Crusader in .223, 25" Bartlein 5R 7-twist barrel, NF 8-32x56 NP-R1, LRA bipod, metalwork done by GAP's Logan Schmit:

First range trip - NCSA Pala range, San Diego, 2x5 shots @ 100 yd off a rolled-up blanket (no bipod), Southwest Run-N-Gun 77s @ 2923 fps (top targets), FGMM 77s @ 2739 fps (bottom targets)

Precision (MOA, clockwise from top left, calculated using "On Target" software): 0.876, 0.740, 0.367, 0.475



2nd Range trip - South Bay Rod and Gun Club, San Diego, 4 x 5 shots @ 100 yd, bipod + rear bag, FGMM 77s

Precision (MOA, clockwise from top left, calculated using "On Target" software): 0.261, 0.503, 0.744, 0.367; 4-group avg = 0.47 MOA



Last weekend - South Bay Rod and Gun Club, San Diego, 4 x 5 shots @ 100 yd, bipod + rear bag, Copper Creek 77s @ 2875 fps

Precision (MOA, clockwise from top left, calculated using "On Target" software): 0.437, 0.534, 0.548, 0.400; 4-group avg = 0.48 MOA





Last but not least - South Bay Rod and Gun Club, San Diego, 2 x 15 shots, 1 x 17 shots @ 300 yd, bipod + rear bag, FGMM 77s

Precision: outer yellow ring - 1.8 MOA, middle ring - 0.9 MOA, inner ring 0.45 MOA (300 yd Reduced Palma target scoring rings)
I had two rounds left in the box, so I shot 17 shots instead of 15 on Target 3, believe it or not, those last two round were the only two out of the 10-ring on the left; wind picked up and I missed the call)

This rifle is sickeningly accurate/precise and requires almost no effort to shoot decent groups. Even inexpensive factory loads shoot under a minute out of this rifle. Obviously, wind can definitely be a factor, even at 100 yd, with the light 77s as can be seen by the horizontal stringing of some of the groups. At 600 yd, this rifle put 5 shots of the FGMM 77s into 2.93" under calm conditions. However, as soon as the wind came up, it became GAP's 1st precision shotgun (LOL). Those light projectiles get blown around a lot at 600 yd.

In any event, my point is this: with a well-made rifle, shooting small groups at 100 yd really shouldn't require any effort; it's not any great feat to do it. Why shooting little groups at 100 yd, or even 300 yd, seems to be such a big deal on shooting forums, I'll never understand. Shooting 20 shots under a minute at 600 yd and beyond, or making a first round cold bore hit on a small target at long range, now those are real challenges.

 

[pawprint2]

I was just reading the MO State Championship F class match results:
Missouri F-Class State Championship 4-21-12
Match 1 Match 2 Match 3 Match 4 Aggregate
FO Brian Suhr 197-7 195-6 200-11 199-3 791-37 F-Open Winner
FO Brad Plant 199-9 194-10 194-8 196-8 783-35 F-Open 2nd
FT Ryan Cokerham 196-6 197-6 193-7 196-3 782-22 F-T/R Winner
FO Mike Jakubczak 191-4 200-8 191-9 199-10 781-31 F-Open 3rd
FT Kenneth Schilling 194-7 192-2 192-5 197-10 775-24 F-T/R 2nd
FT Sierra Scott 195-5 195-4 191-5 193-5 774-19 Top Woman/ F-T/R 3rd
FO Sam Jakubczak 194-3 194-8 190-3 196-4 774-18 Top Junior
FT Don Rabun 194-6 189-4 197-9 192-4 772-23 F-T/R Senior
FT Steve Siracusa 194-6 190-2 193-4 193-6 770-18
FT Paul Siracusa 191-4 190-3 194-7 193-7 768-21
FO John Perkins 196-7 196-7 186-1 190-3 768-18 F-Open Senior
FO Adam Bell 190-3 188-1 192-4 194-6 764-14
FT Brett Stark 191-3 190-6 192-2 190-0 763-11
FT Paul Scott 191-4 189-0 190-4 192-8 762-16
FT Scott McRee 191-3 189-1 192-8 187-5 759-17
FO Lenny Bagden 198-5 186-0 186-1 180-1 750-7
FT Dwight Kraai 182-5 190-3 189-4 187-4 748-16
FT Don Martin 179-0 191-3 188-2 190-1 748-6
FT Steven Finnell 191-6 181-5 171-0 187-4 730-15
FT Corey Siebert 180-2 181-1 194-2 174-1 729-6
FT John Ross 167-0 191-4 184-0 186-3 728-7
FT Chet Boisen 179-2 186-2 168-0 187-7 720-11
FT Jason Miller 184-3 174-0 181-2 179-2 718-7
FT Daniel Muller 180-2 178-3 179-1 176-3 713-9
FO Steve Ward 176-2 174-0 179-2 183-1 712-5
FT Kathleen Burdett-Mcree 173-1 184-2 163-0 177-1 697-4
FT Brett Mitchell 184-2 179-3 172-1 158-0 693-6
FT Bobbie Mitchell 171-0 162-1 182-2 165-3 680-6
FO Brett VanDyke 188-5 186-1 182-0 0-0 556-6


Unless I'm wrong the x ring on these 600 yard targets is 3 inches, or 1/2 MOA, it seems even the championship F class shooters are in need of a 1/2MOA gun all day long! A 1/2MOA at 100 gun does not mean it will shoot 1/2 MOA, at 600 to a 1000, there might be some other factors, such as bullet type, velocity etc., but nonetheless, we have a bunch of guys that could have easily gone up to MO and won their State Championship-and many others for that matter, just saying.......

 

[tylerw02]

I was just reading the MO State Championship F class match results:
Missouri F-Class State Championship 4-21-12
Match 1 Match 2 Match 3 Match 4 Aggregate
FO Brian Suhr 197-7 195-6 200-11 199-3 791-37 F-Open Winner
FO Brad Plant 199-9 194-10 194-8 196-8 783-35 F-Open 2nd
FT Ryan Cokerham 196-6 197-6 193-7 196-3 782-22 F-T/R Winner
FO Mike Jakubczak 191-4 200-8 191-9 199-10 781-31 F-Open 3rd
FT Kenneth Schilling 194-7 192-2 192-5 197-10 775-24 F-T/R 2nd
FT Sierra Scott 195-5 195-4 191-5 193-5 774-19 Top Woman/ F-T/R 3rd
FO Sam Jakubczak 194-3 194-8 190-3 196-4 774-18 Top Junior
FT Don Rabun 194-6 189-4 197-9 192-4 772-23 F-T/R Senior
FT Steve Siracusa 194-6 190-2 193-4 193-6 770-18
FT Paul Siracusa 191-4 190-3 194-7 193-7 768-21
FO John Perkins 196-7 196-7 186-1 190-3 768-18 F-Open Senior
FO Adam Bell 190-3 188-1 192-4 194-6 764-14
FT Brett Stark 191-3 190-6 192-2 190-0 763-11
FT Paul Scott 191-4 189-0 190-4 192-8 762-16
FT Scott McRee 191-3 189-1 192-8 187-5 759-17
FO Lenny Bagden 198-5 186-0 186-1 180-1 750-7
FT Dwight Kraai 182-5 190-3 189-4 187-4 748-16
FT Don Martin 179-0 191-3 188-2 190-1 748-6
FT Steven Finnell 191-6 181-5 171-0 187-4 730-15
FT Corey Siebert 180-2 181-1 194-2 174-1 729-6
FT John Ross 167-0 191-4 184-0 186-3 728-7
FT Chet Boisen 179-2 186-2 168-0 187-7 720-11
FT Jason Miller 184-3 174-0 181-2 179-2 718-7
FT Daniel Muller 180-2 178-3 179-1 176-3 713-9
FO Steve Ward 176-2 174-0 179-2 183-1 712-5
FT Kathleen Burdett-Mcree 173-1 184-2 163-0 177-1 697-4
FT Brett Mitchell 184-2 179-3 172-1 158-0 693-6
FT Bobbie Mitchell 171-0 162-1 182-2 165-3 680-6
FO Brett VanDyke 188-5 186-1 182-0 0-0 556-6


Unless I'm wrong the x ring on these 600 yard targets is 3 inches, or 1/2 MOA, it seems even the championship F class shooters are in need of a 1/2MOA gun all day long! A 1/2MOA at 100 gun does not mean it will shoot 1/2 MOA, at 600 to a 1000, there might be some other factors, such as bullet type, velocity etc., but nonetheless, we have a bunch of guys that could have easily gone up to MO and won their State Championship-and many others for that matter, just saying.......

I personally know a few guys on that list and they will tell you their custom-action, high-end guns with tailored loads won't shoot 1/2 MOA every time. Funny, all the other guns on the internet do but they don't show up at matches. When my buddy was suffering from anxiety about going to his first match, he didn't want to go because his rifle only shot an honest .75-1.0 MOA average. He didn't think he'd stand a chance because everybody here on the Hide and other forums had guns that shot 1/4 MOA all day long (if they did their part). I told him if he holds MOA all day, he'll probably finish toward the top. He thought I was bullshitting him until the match was over and the scoring was done. He shot about 1.5 MOA and finished in the upper third of the pack.

 

[Twisted]

Twisted, what were you shooting on this target?

Oops, should have put that in the original post. Will edit it right now.

 

[elfster1234]

Something like this? Kinda old thread. Was running it for a little bit and stopped for some reason.


http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ard-bolt-action-6groups-30round-shootout.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ard-bolt-action-6groups-30round-shootout.html

 

[mark5pt56]

Found this, maybe it will help?

Mark

Group Size Analysis

Not at 300 yards, but here's how I keep track of my performance. I am trying to collect statistical data on a per-shot basis, so I create an amalgam target from the whole day's shooting. Here's a "30 shot group", which is an overlay of 10 3-shot groups. The 3-shot groups averaged 0.624 MOA, with a minimum around 0.3 and a max at 0.9. The whole thing together came in around 1.4 or 1.5 MOA (can't get to my spreadsheet right now). I consider it to be a "typically 0.7 MOA rifle when I shoot it."

I'm trying to build a mathematical model of how to predict group sizes based on other group sizes. E.g., is there a consistent statistical relationship between 3-shot groups and N-shot groups. I've tested now with several rifles of different inherent precision capability, and I've been finding some interesting things. It's fun to treat this like science.

<a href="http://imgur.com/e2AMWVW"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/e2AMWVW.jpg" title="Hosted by imgur.com"/></a>

 

[jephthai]

Found this, maybe it will help?

Mark

Group Size Analysis

I corresponded with Chris Long recently, as a matter of fact. He argues that shots are normally distributed as random polar coordinates in a shot group. I have been collecting data to validate that assumption. So far, my testing indicates that groups are Rayleigh distributed -- normal separately in the horizontal and vertical. This makes a slight difference in the numbers, and with my real-world group testing so far choosing the Rayleigh distribution method makes a more accurate prediction.

 

[leadbullet]

i haven't seen chris Long in a few years, hell of a nice guy and knows way too much about ballistics.
I am all for more than 3 shot groups and more than one group too.

 

[mcfred]

I think that the short-range paper groups are a little funny on a site dedicated to long range marksmanship. I shoot a 'barrel burner' at the local matches and I think I've shot paper three times since I installed the new barrel last year. Once to sight it in, then to work up a load over a chrony, and once for grins all at 200yds.

After that I shoot at steel between ~100 and 1275 yards. I'm not going to burn 30+ rounds at 100yd paper to satisfy the armchair warriors on the 'net. That's 3% of my barrel's life and hard-to-get components I'd rather use at the matches! The gun and load's more accurate than I am so I don't worry about it. I'm more concerned with technique and reading wind/conditons, not threading needles.

You do not need a .05 MOA $10,000 rifle to shoot steel to 1000. Just get out, shoot and have fun!

 

[jephthai]

I think that the short-range paper groups are a little funny on a site dedicated to long range marksmanship. . . . You do not need a .05 MOA $10,000 rifle to shoot steel to 1000. Just get out, shoot and have fun!

Granted, "shoot steel to 1000" is not a comprehensive description of all Snipers Hide denizens. Long range marksmanship does not "equal" steel targets.

 

[mcfred]

So multiple 100-300yd paper 5-shot groups does? What's the objective again? Is it a test of equipment or of the shooter? Both?

Maybe I'm different? I shoot for fun and I don't see how short range paper really relates to hitting targets a long way away when a gentle shifting crosswind will carry bullets out of that precious sub MOA threshold. Am I wrongfully assuming that people on this site are generally concerned with ranges exceeding 200yards?

I'm not citicising or trying to be a jerk. To me it seems that the 100 yard accuracy fanaticism is well-covered by the benchrest sports and seems redundant to replicate here.

Just my 2¢. That said, I'll shut up, fall back in line and post my 200 yard groups:

Sorry it's only 10 rounds. I got bored after that and started shooting 500-950 steel instead.

 

[Lowlight]

The average range in the US is 200 yards or less, not everyone has access to further distances.

As well, most zero and check initial accuracy at 100 yards as modern optics are best used when zeroed at 100 yards, so it helps on several levels.

The objective is generally to test everything, from scopes, to shooter, to rifles, to loads. So starting at 100 yards provides a good foundation.

Nobody is claiming it is the end all by any means, which is why we ask for a greater sampling that 3 shots. 5 is generally considered the minimum and 5 x 5 is considered a greater representation at 100 yards. Out further, 10 to 20 shots is a better way to represent these goals as it also mirrors a lot of competition shooting, (F Class, High Power, etc ) From here you can then work to fine tune your loads, your dope, etc.

 

[bluto51]

Twisted,

First off, I've seen Greg shoot, including some of those posted targets and he ain't exaggerating.

I like the idea of a new 300 yard challenge with bolt guns. Sure, it isn't 600 yards on paper or steel at 900.
Some of us just don't have easy access to ranges farther than 300. 300 yards just too easy for you? O.K. Good on ya'.
But five, or better yet, six groups at 300 yards (because we already have two benchmark challenges going with those parameters) is definitely a fun challenge.
At 300 yards you're being pushed around by wind. And multiple groups require repeatability (fundamentals)
over luck. Please stipulate that they all have to be on one piece of paper shot on the same day. Check out Elfster's old bolt action 300 yd. challenge
posted above. That will fill the bill nicely. Maybe Elfster can start a new one. I'd gladly participate. The new 100 and 300 yard semi-auto challenges are going strong the second time around. Shooters appear to be posting "what they got" honestly whether it's good or bad. The info seems credible, informative and the participants seem to be enjoying themselves. It would be a great challenge for the rest of us mortals who enjoy a little informal competition while they improve their skills.

After participating in both the 100 and 300 yard semi-auto challenges (and posting even my less-than-stellar results) I can say that six 5-shot groups is definitely a tough assignment for many of us. It's also been a fun learning experience.

Maybe we'll see some half MOA "all-day-long" sticks on there.

 

[mcfred]

The average range in the US is 200 yards or less, not everyone has access to further distances.

As well, most zero and check initial accuracy at 100 yards as modern optics are best used when zeroed at 100 yards, so it helps on several levels.

The objective is generally to test everything, from scopes, to shooter, to rifles, to loads. So starting at 100 yards provides a good foundation.
...

Ok, I get the zero and baseline testing. But once you can get your nice clover leaf reliably, to shoot paper at the same known distances over and over without trying something new sounds crazy to me. I also find it weird that if average ranges do not exceed 200yds that you would need any high-end scope, 30mm+ tube, 65MOA+ elevation range, turrets with accurate/repeatable graduatations for ±2 MOA worth drop and windage usually found inside 200 yards. Seems like holdover on a robust, fixed scope with graded reticle would suffice.

I guess that's a case for having it and not needing it vs. needing it and not having it then? All that high velocity, high BC cartridges and expensive kit makes more sense at extended ranges where the environment really affects trajectories.

Oh well, people certainly do what they want. More power to them.

 

[jephthai]

Ok, I get the zero and baseline testing. But once you can get your nice clover leaf reliably, to shoot paper at the same known distances over and over without trying something new sounds crazy to me.

That's not a fair argument. Shooting paper at known distances may be the goal. For example, High Power and F-Class shooting is at paper at known distances.

Consider also someone who may have access to a 100- or 200-yard range for frequent use, but must travel for matches at longer ranges. How else would they practice, but to shoot what they can where they can? Lots of people are in this situation, and get plenty of practice out of shorter range shooting.

Shooting groups at shorter ranges is also useful to eliminate variables. In load development, it seems to be quite valuable.

 

[gstaylorg]

Shooting groups for training purposes can have some benefits, particularly for shooters with less experience. Knowing you can reproducibly shoot small groups at close range can be a useful exercise to give confidence that both equipment and technique are sound. However, shooting tiny groups strictly for the purpose of bragging rights on a shooting forum is a waste of good ammo. If access to a longer range is lacking, a lot of good training can be had even at 200 yd or less. It will obviously be harder to learn wind reading at shorter distance, but good shooting fundamentals can still be reinforced. IMO, the main point of this thread has to do with the statistics/reliability of groups posted on shooting forums. No one is saying there is no benefit to shooting groups at 100, 200, or even 300 yd. There obviously can be a lot of benefit. However, once you reach a certain point in equipment and experience, it's really not too difficult to shoot very small groups at close range. At that point it can be more beneficial to stretch things out so that you're always challenging yourself to become better. Shooting tiny groups at short range may look good on the internet, but after a certain point, it's going to be of limited help toward improving long range shooting skills.

 

[Twisted]

This thread has provided more feedback than I expected.

For starters, my intended shooting is not at paper but at steel out to distance. That being said, I like to use paper simply to build confidence in the rifle. To me if you can shoot small groups on paper it is a great confidence builder when stretching out.

I don't like 100 yards for groups because it doesn't seem to tell much. 200 is a good range for groups because it tends to give a good idea of what the rounds are really doing without much wind effect. I often shoot 300 simply to push it some.

I should clarify that I don't think everyone who says their rifle will shoot 1/2 MOA is a liar but I don't want to believe it until I see groups that prove such like a 5x5 or something more than a single group. The gentleman with the GAP .223 in this thread, you've got one hell of a rifle/ammo/shooter combo going there. Impressive. But my point in the whole start of this thread was that many people, including myself, get so used to seeing one or two hand picked groups that are beautiful and get the mentality that we should always expect that. I've been fighting my rifle for weeks, tweaking ammo, triple checking torques, etc. etc. simply because it was averaging .75-1ish MOA on several range trips with multiple groups. I could always pick out one group that was impressive but that wasn't good enough for me in my mind. I think this thread has helped me open up to the idea that my rifle is setup plenty good and I need to quit trying to achieve benchrest level groups. Just load it up and shoot steel.

I didn't mean for this to turn in to an argument about groups and why the should be a certain way or should not be a certain way.

 

[woojos]

I corresponded with Chris Long recently, as a matter of fact. He argues that shots are normally distributed as random polar coordinates in a shot group. I have been collecting data to validate that assumption. So far, my testing indicates that groups are Rayleigh distributed -- normal separately in the horizontal and vertical. This makes a slight difference in the numbers, and with my real-world group testing so far choosing the Rayleigh distribution method makes a more accurate prediction.

A bit of a bump to this thread. But I'm reviewing a book on Probability and Random Processes and the author mentions the "radial distribution of misses around the bull's-eye at a rifle range" is indeed Rayleigh distributed, however it is not sourced. Not surprised a google search brought me back here.

If you see this thread, can you comment on how many samples you have taken to empirically make the distinction between Rayleigh and Normal and method used to test the Hypothesis?

 

[diego-ted]

I'm rather shocked to hear that some might question the validity of a rifle that will shoot "under a minute all day long" (LOL). Of course you can see these kind of posts on many shooting forums. Like everything else, some are probably true, some not, I usually don't think too much about it. Since the issue has been raised though, here is one that does and Logan definitely built a winner:

GAP Crusader in .223, 25" Bartlein 5R 7-twist barrel, NF 8-32x56 NP-R1, LRA bipod, metalwork done by GAP's Logan Schmit:

First range trip - NCSA Pala range, San Diego, 2x5 shots @ 100 yd off a rolled-up blanket (no bipod), Southwest Run-N-Gun 77s @ 2923 fps (top targets), FGMM 77s @ 2739 fps (bottom targets)

Precision (MOA, clockwise from top left, calculated using "On Target" software): 0.876, 0.740, 0.367, 0.475



2nd Range trip - South Bay Rod and Gun Club, San Diego, 4 x 5 shots @ 100 yd, bipod + rear bag, FGMM 77s

Precision (MOA, clockwise from top left, calculated using "On Target" software): 0.261, 0.503, 0.744, 0.367; 4-group avg = 0.47 MOA



Last weekend - South Bay Rod and Gun Club, San Diego, 4 x 5 shots @ 100 yd, bipod + rear bag, Copper Creek 77s @ 2875 fps

Precision (MOA, clockwise from top left, calculated using "On Target" software): 0.437, 0.534, 0.548, 0.400; 4-group avg = 0.48 MOA





Last but not least - South Bay Rod and Gun Club, San Diego, 2 x 15 shots, 1 x 17 shots @ 300 yd, bipod + rear bag, FGMM 77s

Precision: outer yellow ring - 1.8 MOA, middle ring - 0.9 MOA, inner ring 0.45 MOA (300 yd Reduced Palma target scoring rings)
I had two rounds left in the box, so I shot 17 shots instead of 15 on Target 3, believe it or not, those last two round were the only two out of the 10-ring on the left; wind picked up and I missed the call)

This rifle is sickeningly accurate/precise and requires almost no effort to shoot decent groups. Even inexpensive factory loads shoot under a minute out of this rifle. Obviously, wind can definitely be a factor, even at 100 yd, with the light 77s as can be seen by the horizontal stringing of some of the groups. At 600 yd, this rifle put 5 shots of the FGMM 77s into 2.93" under calm conditions. However, as soon as the wind came up, it became GAP's 1st precision shotgun (LOL). Those light projectiles get blown around a lot at 600 yd.

In any event, my point is this: with a well-made rifle, shooting small groups at 100 yd really shouldn't require any effort; it's not any great feat to do it. Why shooting little groups at 100 yd, or even 300 yd, seems to be such a big deal on shooting forums, I'll never understand. Shooting 20 shots under a minute at 600 yd and beyond, or making a first round cold bore hit on a small target at long range, now those are real challenges.

I have seen this rifle shoot and with factory ammo to boot, it's just sickening! LOL although it's big brother posted th8s 10 shot group in moderate wind last weekend.

Ted

 

[diego-ted]

I would like to add, for me small groups at short distance is either about equipment testing or load development. If rifle or components won't perform at 100, there is little chance of them performing at 1k.

Diego

 

[andydrose72]

So does it count as 1/2 Moa all day if I am working on cold bore information and it takes me all day long to shoot a five shot group that happens to be 1/2 Moa? On a side not I had the privlage of shooting with Brian Suhr at my first fclass match on august 3rd. He is mentioned in a post above as the MO open state champ. He let me shoot his savage 6brx in the team event which we won. I think he shot a 598 36x. Amazing score but still nowhere near 1/2 moa all day long. Pretty close to 1 moa though.

 

[jbell]

It may have been mentioned here but when you are shooting score matches like F Class you are dealing with precision and accuracy (a little more precision than accuracy). What this thread is talking about is accuracy "MOA of group size". Precision is center hits on a given target. They are both very necessary but both different. That is why some very accurate rifles may not score well at a given score match. So what is more important to you one or the other or both? Just something to think about...