Rifle Scopes Steiner Military 4-16x50 or Vortex Razor 5-20x50?

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Nutro

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May 15, 2011
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#1
Curiosity got the best of me.

All things considered: The Steiner is roughly $200 more

Vortex Razor - 5-20x50 Illuminated EBR-1 Reticle

Steiner Military 4-16x50 Illuminated G2 Mildot Reticle

Which one would you select?
 
#2
I have never shot a Razor, but I have been shooting a Steiner 4-16x50 for three years now. I received one of the first three in the country. It has been bombproof and I have never wanted more shooting MOA-sized targets up to 1,400 yards (so far). Holds zero, knobs are great, zero stop is simple, parallax is great, and the illumination is fantastic. Excellent warranty and customer support. I think for 308-family cartridges, the 4-16 Steiner is a best buy at $2,300 MAP. Feel free to PM with any specific questions.
 
#3
Steiner.

Been super impressed with the quality of the Steiners. Right up there with the S&Bs and Premiers.

Plus that Razor reticle is MOA vs the Steiner in MILs. I was a MOA guy until trying MILs, and MILs is a better system overall for me. Math so much easier (not that I can't do the math w/ MOA, it is just that MIL math is so much faster).
 
#4
I had the exact same choice to make and I went Steiner. The glass is phenomenal, tracking is spot on, great depth of field. I wasn't sure if I would be ok going back to a mil-dot reticle, but being that it's a mildot 2nd gen reticle, I really enjoy using it now. Very different experience from a standard mil dot. The only con that I found was the sheer size of the scope. It's BIG.
 
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#6
hk dave said:
I had the exact same choice to make and I went Steiner. The glass is phenomenal, tracking is spot on, great depth of field. I wasn't sure if I would be ok going back to a mil-dot reticle, but being that it's a mildot 2nd gen reticle, I really enjoy using it now. Very different experience from a standard mil dot. The only con that I found was the sheer size of the scope. It's BIG.
Click to expand...

One thing I always read in any Razor review is how big that scope is, too.

Joe

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
 
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#7
scudzuki said:
One thing I always read in any Razor review is how big that scope is, too.

Joe

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

Yah the Razor is beastly as well. The turret knobs are so tall its kind of funny.

I think the Razor is an awesome scope though. The only two things that turn me off to it is the 35mm tube... I think it's pointless and just makes life a PITA. The other thing is the reticle with numbers where the holdovers are supposed to be... I know the discontinued reticle doesn't do that but it was too fine. If they did that reticle with the bolder dots that exist in the current reticle, it would be a complete win.

Having said all that, pretty sure I'd still go for the Steiner. Crisper glass allows me to stay at lower magnification and have better situational awareness. It's also more fun when I can see the vapor trail. :D
 
#9
How is Steiner for customer support?

If they are anything like what I've had to deal with, with a pair of binos I bought several years ago, I wouldn't recommend them at all.

I bought a pair of Bighorn (15x, 60mm) spotter bino's. The eye cups were cheap plastic and they broke and fell off at some point. Ordinarily, that is a problem you can overcome. But these were their "patented, 'Auto-Focus'". Where each eyepiece is adjusted to the users eye. The problem is it still has to be adjusted for long and short range viewing. This is extremely hard to do without the eye-cups because they have to be held a certain distance away from the eye. It's damn near impossible to get it done correctly.

My problem is I keep getting told they don't make that model any more and there are no eye-cups. Not the kind of response I want to hear after I pay several hundred dollars for a pair of binos.
 
#10
sandwarrior said:
How is Steiner for customer support?

If they are anything like what I've had to deal with, with a pair of binos I bought several years ago, I wouldn't recommend them at all.

I bought a pair of Bighorn (15x, 60mm) spotter bino's. The eye cups were cheap plastic and they broke and fell off at some point. Ordinarily, that is a problem you can overcome. But these were their "patented, 'Auto-Focus'". Where each eyepiece is adjusted to the users eye. The problem is it still has to be adjusted for long and short range viewing. This is extremely hard to do without the eye-cups because they have to be held a certain distance away from the eye. It's damn near impossible to get it done correctly.

My problem is I keep getting told they don't make that model any more and there are no eye-cups. Not the kind of response I want to hear after I pay several hundred dollars for a pair of binos.
Click to expand...

Have no clue with regards to binos... but the one time I had a concern about my 4-16 Military, I PMed Steiner Optics here on the hide and got a response in minutes.

The response was honest, helpful, and they tried to go above and beyond.
 
#12
After opening my big mouth I see, after years of trying to get them, that they are available. D'oH!


Added:

The changes you describe in customer service is a good thing. I like their products a lot. I've just been pissed at not getting the eyecups.
 
#17
Nutro said:
My main question is; is the lifetime warranty transferrable? If I buy a used scope, will it be covered? That is what I love about the Vortex.
Click to expand...

Yes it is transferable. We warranty the scope not the user so if you want to sell it then it's good to go regardless of who originally purchased it. We view the purchase of a Steiner product as a true investment that can be handed down from generation to generation.
 
#18
sandwarrior said:
After opening my big mouth I see, after years of trying to get them, that they are available. D'oH!


Added:

The changes you describe in customer service is a good thing. I like their products a lot. I've just been pissed at not getting the eyecups.
Click to expand...

SW, sorry that you had so many bad dealings in the past. We are completely revamping our CS approach and you will start seeing more about that in 2014. If you still run into issues with your bighorns either call our CS department or get in touch with me here. We'll get you squared away.
 
#20
Had a Steiner 4-16 before I upgraded to the 5-25. The 4-16 rocks on every level with the exception that it's long. Schmidt level glass, as others have said its bombproof built and tracks perfect. Their gen2 mildot is awesome just wish it was a touch slimmer and you can't beat its illumination, not to mention the eyebox on the Steiner will spoil you. As for Steiner CS, I have nothing but the best to say about them, very friendly and extremely fast.

BTW for new and a good price look here (think $1799.99).
Steiner 4-16x50mm Military Scope
 
#21
I have a Razor with the EBR-2B reticle. I also have a 3-12x56 Steiner with a G2 Mildot. Both Scopes are great scopes. The Steiner has better glass at comparable magnification. I like the feel of the Razor turrets better than the Steiner, however I like them both. They both have great Zero Stops, but the Razor feels like a bank vault closing when you hit zero. Also the Steiner zero allows you to go .5 mils past zero (might be useful if you needed to dial a dope lower than you zero point) The Steiner has a much better illumination system. The Razor has 3.9' eye relief and the Steiner is 3.5" eye relief. The razor has greater elevation adjustment. I have the Razor on a 338 that kicks like a Missouri Mule. The Steiner is on My 22-250 AI varmint rifle. Overall I like the Steiner better, but I still wouldn't put it on my 338. The Razor is a great scope, and I appreciate the extra eye relief and elevation adjustment. I think you will be happy with either scope.

JDM
 
#22
Steiner Optics said:
SW, sorry that you had so many bad dealings in the past. We are completely revamping our CS approach and you will start seeing more about that in 2014. If you still run into issues with your bighorns either call our CS department or get in touch with me here. We'll get you squared away.
Click to expand...


Thank you! On Friday, when my next play money comes in (actually Tuesday, because I get home after work on Monday about 10 P.M. PDT) to order some new eyecups.
 
#23
Nutro said:
Curiosity got the best of me.

All things considered: The Steiner is roughly $200 more

Vortex Razor - 5-20x50 Illuminated EBR-1 Reticle

Steiner Military 4-16x50 Illuminated G2 Mildot Reticle

Which one would you select?
Click to expand...

I see your problem. The Razor has higher magnification and nice glass, but it's a beast of a scope, larger than even the SnB 25x. As well the Razor has a great reticle. I have looked through the Razor and it's nice.

That said you can't go wrong with the Steiner.

I own the 25x with MSR and it's a great optic, turrets track very nice though a little mushy. I hear that the 16X glass is even nicer, if thats even possible.

It's a hard one so once you figure it out let us know, muhahahahaaaa...
 
#24
2G5MK said:
I have a Razor with the EBR-2B reticle. I also have a 3-12x56 Steiner with a G2 Mildot. Both Scopes are great scopes. The Steiner has better glass at comparable magnification. I like the feel of the Razor turrets better than the Steiner, however I like them both. They both have great Zero Stops, but the Razor feels like a bank vault closing when you hit zero. Also the Steiner zero allows you to go .5 mils past zero (might be useful if you needed to dial a dope lower than you zero point) The Steiner has a much better illumination system. The Razor has 3.9' eye relief and the Steiner is 3.5" eye relief. The razor has greater elevation adjustment.....I think you will be happy with either scope.

JDM
Click to expand...
This.

I have 3 Razors. Two with the EBR-2B and one with the EBR3. All mil/mil. I had 2 Razors and a 3-12 Steiner Military two weeks ago, but I traded a guy straight up for a NIB Razor. I thought the glass on the Steiner was the best feature, but I don't know that it's hands down better than the Razor. I'd say it's so close, that its really going to boil down to the individual as to which one they think is "better". The zero stop on the Steiner is hands down better than the Razor. It's simpler to use, and it allows you to go .5 mils past the zero. Great feature! The eye relief on the Steiner bothered me a little, having been used to the Razor. However, I had it on a 300 BLK SBR with 9" barrel, and I didn't have the most ideal mount for that rifle, which put the scope a little closer to my eye than I would've preferred. That could be influencing my opinion on the lack of eye relief. I ended up doing the trade because I'm a magnification whore, and I wanted more than 3-12. I like to shoot somewhere between 15 and 18, and I don't like to go all the way to the highest setting on any scope. So a 5-20 works out well. One other drawback to the Steiner is the length. It's 1/3" longer than the Razor, yet has less magnification range (or maybe I'm looking at that wrong since they're both 4x). And it weighs over 2 lbs. The 35mm tube on the Razor doesn't bother me.

I'm now looking at a Steiner 4-16 though, because I did like the glass and zero stop so much. The biggest question mark in my head was the warranty, and how did it compare to Vortex. The Steiner guys appear to be Johnny-on-the-spot in this thread and have answered that question for me!

Another question for Steiner: How much does it cost to change out the reticle, and how long would it take?

And not to hijack the thread, but I'm looking at Steiner 4-16 vs Leupold Mk6 3-18. Supposedly has much better glass than any previous model, all the features you'd find on scopes in today's market (mil/mil and ffp namely), and it weighs 23 oz.
 
#26
bluto77 said:
I'm now looking at a Steiner 4-16 though, because I did like the glass and zero stop so much. The biggest question mark in my head was the warranty, and how did it compare to Vortex. The Steiner guys appear to be Johnny-on-the-spot in this thread and have answered that question for me!

Another question for Steiner: How much does it cost to change out the reticle, and how long would it take?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I don't have any other reticles to change it out with. That scope only comes in the G2 Mil-dot reticle. Sorry. Wish I had a better answer.
 
#30
I have a 5-25MSR and a Razor 5-20HD both purchased two months ago. Ive shot them side by side several times. Ill be damned if I can tell the difference between the two. I like my Nightforce better to tell the truth. For the money Id buy the Vortex and use the saving towards other gear. Today I was shooting in cloudy weather and wasn't impressed in either. Id like to bring out my Zeiss 6-24 next time to get a good comparison.
 
#31
bhoges said:
I have a 5-25MSR and a Razor 5-20HD both purchased two months ago. Ive shot them side by side several times. Ill be damned if I can tell the difference between the two. I like my Nightforce better to tell the truth. For the money Id buy the Vortex and use the saving towards other gear. Today I was shooting in cloudy weather and wasn't impressed in either. Id like to bring out my Zeiss 6-24 next time to get a good comparison.
Click to expand...

I envy you if you truly cannot tell the difference between your Razor 5-20HD and your Steiner 5-25. Would save me a bunch of money, but from the testing I have done there is such a night and day difference between the two in glass quality it isn't even funny. I actually liked me Razors turrets better and build quality seemed on point but glass quality? Not even close.

And when you say you like your Nightforce better I assume your talking about the new 5-25?
 
#32
Im surprised that the Steiner wasn't any better myself. Granted Ive never used them in low light. As a matter of fact the first Steiner I got had flakes inside the glass from the antireflection coating in the tube. I was taken back by that. I felt the imagine wasn't any shaper or the light transmission as no difference as well. I plan Im getting out with a resolution chart and compare the two. Kinda wish I went for a S&B at this point.
 
#33
bhoges said:
Im surprised that the Steiner wasn't any better myself. Granted Ive never used them in low light. As a matter of fact the first Steiner I got had flakes inside the glass from the antireflection coating in the tube. I was taken back by that. I felt the imagine wasn't any shaper or the light transmission as no difference as well. I plan Im getting out with a resolution chart and compare the two. Kinda wish I went for a S&B at this point.
Click to expand...

You are the first to report that experience.
My Steiner 5-25 is every bit the optical equal of the SnB 5-25 I had.

Joe
 
#34
Maybe I got a lemon? I have Swarovski, Nightforce and Zeiss. I think I can tell good glass. Its weird I know. I have them out now side by side looking into power lines and they look the same to me. I have them focused on bolts and both are set at 20x. The Razor has a much better parallax ill say that. Now that its getting dark the Steiner is brighter Ill give it that. But is it worth the extra cost? I don't see a huge difference.
 
#35
Steiner is well made, no question. I'm not wild about the tube diameter but often you only buy one mount so if you can get one of high quality at that diameter this problem becomes moot.

I was thinking lately it would be nice to have light transmission spectragrams (might have the wrong term as I do mostly audio) for each scope as many times the resolution is the same but one scope might have different transmission characteristics (e.g. more yellow or blue). I prefer wide band opposed to some that like the yellower glass. I've found Zeiss and SnB to be yellower than Bushnell elite (more blue) and remember Steiner being more neutral or white.
 
#39
Today I had a chance to shoot my Nesika 260Rem with the Steiner 5-25 MSR at 625yards. I compared to my buddies NF 5-22. We both agree the NF was slightly brighter. His is a new NSX. I love the turrets and reticle but just don't think the optics are that great. When even he had the same feeling I knew it wasn't just me. I can't believe Im the only one who has experienced this?
 
#40
bhoges said:
Today I had a chance to shoot my Nesika 260Rem with the Steiner 5-25 MSR at 625yards. I compared to my buddies NF 5-22. We both agree the NF was slightly brighter. His is a new NSX. I love the turrets and reticle but just don't think the optics are that great. When even he had the same feeling I knew it wasn't just me. I can't believe Im the only one who has experienced this?
Click to expand...

Did your buddy's NSX have the 56mm objective?
 
#41
It's interesting to read these comments. I had a look through a Steiner 5-25 with MSR last weekend and when looking through the Steiner compared to a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22 and a Bushnell 4.5-30, it was no comparison, the Steiner was noticeably brighter and clearer to my eyes and overall build quality just seemed to be more precise, with the Bushnell looking surprisingly murky and the NF in between them both.
 
#43
This might be a little late but Mile High Shooting Accessories was running a special when you buy a Vortex 5-20x you get a free Spuhr mount. If I didnt already buy my Leupold I would surely have jumped on that deal. That is over a $430+ savings!

Just some food for thought.
 
#45
Cartman said:
That's why you were the one who saw the Vortex as brighter. The larger objective lens lets in more light. An apples to oranges comparison.
Click to expand...


I have a Steiner 5-25x56 thats what I was comparing to the NSX. I also have a Razor 5-20x50. I just don't feel in my opinion the Steiner is any better. I feel they are overpriced. Like I said Id like to line up all three and compare.
 
#46
bhoges said:
I have a Steiner 5-25x56 thats what I was comparing to the NSX. I also have a Razor 5-20x50. I just don't feel in my opinion the Steiner is any better. I feel they are overpriced. Like I said Id like to line up all three and compare.
Click to expand...

Totally my bad mate -- I had in my head the Steiner was a 50mm objective! I probably had the 4-16 in my head. Please disregard above posts.
 
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#48
Cncjerry said:
Steiner is well made, no question. I'm not wild about the tube diameter but often you only buy one mount so if you can get one of high quality at that diameter this problem becomes moot.

I was thinking lately it would be nice to have light transmission spectragrams (might have the wrong term as I do mostly audio) for each scope as many times the resolution is the same but one scope might have different transmission characteristics (e.g. more yellow or blue). I prefer wide band opposed to some that like the yellower glass. I've found Zeiss and SnB to be yellower than Bushnell elite (more blue) and remember Steiner being more neutral or white.
Click to expand...

Radiospectrometer. I have a Photo Research PR-670 at my disposal and will take advantage of it, when my 4-16 arrives. With that, I can measure light loss as well as shifts in color temperature.

As a general comment, I wish we'd start seeing of more this data being quantified (as it's all doable) in the reviews. It's one thing to hear someone say that X looks brighter than Y. But if you really want to know, take a spot meter, point it through and take a reading. One scope being warmer while another is cooler or neutral is also measurable. Resolution charts will point to the scope's ability to resolve detail. Contrast is trickier to measure. But doing so would reveal a lot about the lens coating. A tabletop setup with a DSLR and image analysis software would light that path.
 
#49
It's kinda like which shoes are comfortable. You really don't know until you put them on and take a stroll. Try to find one of each and take a look. It's really the only way to know.

The 4x-16x has been going cheap lately because it is being discontinued so do some looking around.
 
#50
Steiner Optics said:
It's kinda like which shoes are comfortable. You really don't know until you put them on and take a stroll. Try to find one of each and take a look. It's really the only way to know.

The 4x-16x has been going cheap lately because it is being discontinued so do some looking around.
Click to expand...

Picked up the last one at Amazon for $1499. Took them so long to ship it that I thought their inventory wasn't correct. It's en route. So I suppose that's good.

I understand the subjective aspects to it. And I'd never knock someone's opinion of anything, especially when that person has more experience than I. But it's the raw data that I think would help in making these purchase choices. Right now, regarding scopes, we get the basic specifications. As for the rest, we rely on opinion. And there's all sorts of grey area in opinion. "I think Scope X is brighter". (But I also work for X. Or I'm partial to and heavily invested in X's line. Or my pupil dilated a little more in between looking at the two.) Noted above, there are two completely differing opinions about your glass being definitely sharper than the Razor as well as roughly equal. Who's right? Which samples did they get? What are your tolerances vs. the other guy's?

Yes, it adds more to your product sheet. And yes, it runs the risk of starting a new pissing match:rolleyes: with your competitors. But I think people are also savvy enough to get it. To equate it to engine terms, most people here are probably aware that, depending on the application, it's not enough to know that an engine makes 500lb/ft of torque. They need to know where, in the power band, that torque is made. And as Apple has shown time again, educating the consumer can lead to massive benefits. Most people were unaware of screen resolution, until Apple explained the concept with their 'Retina Display'. Now they all want a 4K display in their 13" laptops!

Thanks for the response.
 
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