300 blackout
- Thread starter kyle528
- Start date
So it should sufficiently stabilize both a
125 grain bullet for varmints and a 220 grain bullet in a sub load? The reason I'm asking is because my .308 barrel is a 1:10 and I just wasn't sure if the faster twist would be a problem for some bullets. Thanks for your answer
I had a black out.....even reloading I couldn't get descent ballistics past 150 yards for hunting. so I sold it for a LR-308. With as short as range as the black out has, a faster twist is designed for a heavier bullet to go subsonic. You might find an accuracy issue with the lightest 308 bullets and that twist rate.
Also keep in mind that the 300 blackout was designed to be shot suppressed out of an 8.5" barrel. I've seen decent accuracy out of barrels from 8.5" to 16". I personally have shot the 220's out of an AAC 16" with decent accuracty at 100 (1MOA ish). I dont plan on shooting any farther than 200 for pigs. If you are looking for .50"MOA accuracy you will be greatly disappointed.
The 300 BLK is capable of the same accuracy as anything else that can be fired out of an AR. My 9" likes 110 V-max's pushed to 2150 fps, and 208 A-max's pushed at 1000 fps. I don't use the subs for anything other than showing off to friends. I use the 110 Vmax load for night hunting pigs, and I shot 2 deer with it this year as well. The rifle consistently shoots 1.25 MOA 5 shot groups with mixed brass loaded in a progressive, and I can occasionally do better but I don't count on it. I would not shoot a deer at further than 100 yards due to the lack of knockdown power. I feel comfortable making hits out to 300 on pigs, etc. With proper shot placement, it will certainly do the job, but lacks the bang-flop knockdown of most hunting cartridges.
I had a 1 in 7 twist barrel before my current 1 in 8 and it didn't seem to make much difference. The individual barrel will tell you whether it can shoot subsonic loads or not. This 9" is the 4th barrel I've had and I'm finally satisfied with the holes being round enough to shoot through a suppressor and not have an issue. I spent hundreds of dollars and countless hours of my time figuring this out, but there really is no good explanation for why some barrels will stabilize subsonic loads and others will not. Just be sure and test subsonic rounds on paper before shooting through a suppressor. Supersonics are much more versatile anyways. Just my opinion.
I had a 1 in 7 twist barrel before my current 1 in 8 and it didn't seem to make much difference. The individual barrel will tell you whether it can shoot subsonic loads or not. This 9" is the 4th barrel I've had and I'm finally satisfied with the holes being round enough to shoot through a suppressor and not have an issue. I spent hundreds of dollars and countless hours of my time figuring this out, but there really is no good explanation for why some barrels will stabilize subsonic loads and others will not. Just be sure and test subsonic rounds on paper before shooting through a suppressor. Supersonics are much more versatile anyways. Just my opinion.
The question shouldn't be about stabilizing as the barrel will handle that out to a few hundred yards. The issue is knockdown power. What most non-reloaders don't pay attention to is bullet expansion. Most hunting bullets are designed to reliable expand above a certain velocity. The best expanding bullet I could find was the barnes TTSX which has good expansion DOWN too 1600 FPS. The hottest I could get a 300BO loaded to was around 2000 FPS. Gues what that means? anything much past 150 yards and the bullet slowed down so much that expansion and penetration was not reliable. That's what I found in MY research....and I did a lot of it.
For Pigs thick hides, no way would go past 150 yards even with hot hand loads. Not with a clean kill to the shoulder. Now if you don't mind a couple of shots or headshots at 200+..then fine. But taking into affect ballistics, bullet drop, velocity, expansion, etc, I never found a reliable way to do it past 150 yards. heck, even with a hot load the bullet would drop 9" from 200-300 yards. Too me, that's not good. I don't want to guess on a kill with a 200 yard shot.
For Pigs thick hides, no way would go past 150 yards even with hot hand loads. Not with a clean kill to the shoulder. Now if you don't mind a couple of shots or headshots at 200+..then fine. But taking into affect ballistics, bullet drop, velocity, expansion, etc, I never found a reliable way to do it past 150 yards. heck, even with a hot load the bullet would drop 9" from 200-300 yards. Too me, that's not good. I don't want to guess on a kill with a 200 yard shot.
The BDC reticle in the Burris TAC30 corresponds to my 110 Vmax @ 2150 fps at 100, 200, 250, 300, and 350 yards. The effects of wind on that low BC slow bullet are dramatic past 200 yards. As you stated, most bullets don't reliably expand below 1800 fps. This is how one should calculate their max range with any round, also factoring their own skill. The spike I recently shot (100 lbs) ran 100 yards with a pass through double lung shot at 50 yards. The 10 point ran 50 yards with heart shot at a range of 15 yards. The bullet stopped just under the far side skin. Previous to this, I shot 2 pigs running across a field with NV gear. They were ~200 lbs. Each pig soaked up a minimum of 6 rounds before deciding to die. None of the shots were great, and all were a bit too far back, but none of them were pass throughs. A 308, 6.5, 270, etc. would have dropped either of those pigs in one shot. Maybe not immediately because the shots weren't great, but it would have been much cleaner.
Speedster00 is pretty much spot on. The 300 BLK will do the job at close-intermediate ranges, but it is not ideal and there is very little room for error. The big plus to the 300 BLK is that it is a blast to shoot and is a handloaders dream. There will always be .223 brass and 308 bullets. You can shoot everything from the 90 grain XTP handgun bullets to the giant 240 SMK which is longer than the entire case.
I concur with DDAVIS. I think its a great gun for under 100 yards..maybe 125. Past that and I couldn't find any bullet capable of descent expansion and that didn't drop like a rock. The guy I sold my rifle too said all his shots were under 75 yards . So he could pick from nearly any round he wanted too. My understanding of the whisper/blackout is that it was originally designed by the govt for silent close quarters work. You cant slow down a 223 to be subsonic and totally quiet like the black out. If you get a truly subsonic load and suppressed blackout, all you hear is the bolt cycle. sounds like an air rifle.
300 blackout
i have the ability to hunt deer year round on a crop damage permit. the farthest shot i could be making would be 250 yards MAX. would there be a bullet powder combination capable of a headshot on a deer @ 200 yards 9 times out of 10? mathematically, a 110 grain bullet going 2100fps [MENTION=108299]The M[/MENTION]uzzle would have 541 ft/lbs at 250 yards. to me that seems like enough power to bring down a deer, but ive never really studied how much energy is needed so please enlighten me if i am wrong. however, i know that if i am going for a headshot, expansion of the bullet doesnt mean that much, a headshot is always a kill unless you dont penetrate the skull which im sure is not even an issue.
i have the ability to hunt deer year round on a crop damage permit. the farthest shot i could be making would be 250 yards MAX. would there be a bullet powder combination capable of a headshot on a deer @ 200 yards 9 times out of 10? mathematically, a 110 grain bullet going 2100fps [MENTION=108299]The M[/MENTION]uzzle would have 541 ft/lbs at 250 yards. to me that seems like enough power to bring down a deer, but ive never really studied how much energy is needed so please enlighten me if i am wrong. however, i know that if i am going for a headshot, expansion of the bullet doesnt mean that much, a headshot is always a kill unless you dont penetrate the skull which im sure is not even an issue.
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I think your looking at the wrong caliber personally. A blackout was not designed for that. A 6.8 would be a much flatter shooting and accurate round.
The best bullet I found was the Barnes ttsx andlil gun powder. It offered the best ballistics and expansion at slower speeds but still needed 1600 fps. At 250 yards it's closer to 1200 fps. And I couldn't get but 2000 out of the barrel loading it hot. A quick balistics calculator says with a 100 yard zero, you'll have a 10" drop at 200 and a 34" drop at 300. So if your really trying for those 150 plus yard head shots...you'll need a very accurate range card and range finder to hit heads at that distance.
The best bullet I found was the Barnes ttsx andlil gun powder. It offered the best ballistics and expansion at slower speeds but still needed 1600 fps. At 250 yards it's closer to 1200 fps. And I couldn't get but 2000 out of the barrel loading it hot. A quick balistics calculator says with a 100 yard zero, you'll have a 10" drop at 200 and a 34" drop at 300. So if your really trying for those 150 plus yard head shots...you'll need a very accurate range card and range finder to hit heads at that distance.
Do you reload? If you don't I wouldn't even bother with a "wildcat" cartridge. If you do reload then the next question is, do you/will run a silencer? If yes then 300blk, if no 6.8.
I have a 300blk because 208gr amaxs are just too much fun and 125gr SSTs will put a hurtin on anything within 300yds no problem. The blackout has quite a few bullets now and coming up that work well with the slower velocities of the cartridge. 110 vmaxs are a blast and cause massive soft tissue damage and are the perfect bullet for head shots, as are the 125gr SMKs. Accuracy with this round is not very good with shelf ammo but with handloads 1moa is easily attainable.
Personally I don't really see the point of 6.5 or 6.8, for what it costs to build a nice rifle in either caliber you can build a 308 or 6.5 creedmore in an AR10 for just a couple hundred more. Youll have a couple pound heavier rifle but with a lot more bite to its bark. For that reason, I own a 300blk and my next semi build will be off the mega maten mkm set with a 308 barrel. Mainly going with 308 so I can share components with my 308 bolt guns and my 300blk.
Theres a million ways to skin a cat and we live an awesome time where there are a ton of options.
I have a 300blk because 208gr amaxs are just too much fun and 125gr SSTs will put a hurtin on anything within 300yds no problem. The blackout has quite a few bullets now and coming up that work well with the slower velocities of the cartridge. 110 vmaxs are a blast and cause massive soft tissue damage and are the perfect bullet for head shots, as are the 125gr SMKs. Accuracy with this round is not very good with shelf ammo but with handloads 1moa is easily attainable.
Personally I don't really see the point of 6.5 or 6.8, for what it costs to build a nice rifle in either caliber you can build a 308 or 6.5 creedmore in an AR10 for just a couple hundred more. Youll have a couple pound heavier rifle but with a lot more bite to its bark. For that reason, I own a 300blk and my next semi build will be off the mega maten mkm set with a 308 barrel. Mainly going with 308 so I can share components with my 308 bolt guns and my 300blk.
Theres a million ways to skin a cat and we live an awesome time where there are a ton of options.
1slow makes some great points.
IF you reload, have/are getting a suppressor, and plan to sbr or run a pistol lower then by all means, the Blackout is badass. (I just got mine.) It's tons of fun in an 8-10", mine is a 1/8 twist and even stabilizes the 245 cast Missouri bullet company projectile at sub speeds.
If your want a pig/deer/precision gun that can go past 200-300 yards, look at something else. If you don't reload, it's going to be spendy to get ammo, that being said the Barnes 110 Tac-TX is showing up in loaded ammo and is the shit. It was designed to expand at extreme low velocities at farther ranges with the blackout.
Either way, good luck. Just make sure this is the right "club" you want to add to the bag, as each one has a specific purpose and not all guns/rounds cross over.
IF you reload, have/are getting a suppressor, and plan to sbr or run a pistol lower then by all means, the Blackout is badass. (I just got mine.) It's tons of fun in an 8-10", mine is a 1/8 twist and even stabilizes the 245 cast Missouri bullet company projectile at sub speeds.
If your want a pig/deer/precision gun that can go past 200-300 yards, look at something else. If you don't reload, it's going to be spendy to get ammo, that being said the Barnes 110 Tac-TX is showing up in loaded ammo and is the shit. It was designed to expand at extreme low velocities at farther ranges with the blackout.
Either way, good luck. Just make sure this is the right "club" you want to add to the bag, as each one has a specific purpose and not all guns/rounds cross over.
I have read on the 300 forum that it is capable further, but I did not build a 8.5 sbr for hunting fields.
Shooting pnw 125gr noslers I am seeing right at 1 moa or hair better if I am not in a hurry with a brand new barrel. Barrel has a total of 30 rounds down it. Majority of that was function testing with supers and subs before wasting my time sighting in my accupoint on it. Was making sure I did t have a 7 month wait and lots of $$$ in a gun best suited for a red dot.
Shooting pnw 125gr noslers I am seeing right at 1 moa or hair better if I am not in a hurry with a brand new barrel. Barrel has a total of 30 rounds down it. Majority of that was function testing with supers and subs before wasting my time sighting in my accupoint on it. Was making sure I did t have a 7 month wait and lots of $$$ in a gun best suited for a red dot.
Like has been said, at shorter ranges, the blackout is a great hunting cartridge. I took an aoudad that just fell where it stood. However, the velocity is too slow to be taking 200+ yard shots.
The subsonic is great for impressing people, but impact is 12" low at 100 compared to a 125 gr load. That makes it worthless for hunting in my book other than from an archery stand.
The subsonic is great for impressing people, but impact is 12" low at 100 compared to a 125 gr load. That makes it worthless for hunting in my book other than from an archery stand.
There is no cartridge that will do it all. The blkout is great for what it will do. Short range 0 to 200yrds its great like said above. If you dont reload the blkout isnt for you in my opinion. I love the 125gn bullets, Nosler BT and Sierra prohunters. Both very accurate and good preformance out to about 200, maybe 250yrds. Most of the time I can get groups at .50 or little better. Best iv shot was .2 at 100yrds. I zeroed few weeks ago for hunting 1" high at 100yrds. Holding dead on it still smacks 8" still at 200 and holding 1.5 mil at 300yrds. It works for me. I do shoot suppressed.
Thanks for the input so far. To answer a few questions, yes I do hand load and no I will probably not run a can, as they are illegal for hunting and that is my main purpose for the gun. I am also aware that the 300blk is not good ballistically past a few hundred yards for much of anything, and I rarely plan to take it past 150 yards. I know ballistically that at 150 yards with the right load I could take down a deer with even a well placed heart or lung shot. However, I plan on taking headshots so I am not worried about energy or expansion because I don't need that as much with a head shot. If I end up getting it, during load development I plan to run a light bullet and hot powder for highest velocities possible. I know there are other more accurate options on an ar platform like the .308 and 6,5 creedmoor. However, I lean more toward the 300blk because of the similarities in parts to the 556 upper (bcg & mags). And there will always be plenty .223 brass and .308 bullets. 6.5 components are harder to find and typically more expensive all around, and would have a shorter barrel life. So, for what I'm looking at, 150 yard max shots on deer and plinking around, I guess to me the 300 is the best option.
OP- One thing we haven't gone back to is the fact that you said you have a 223. IF your going for headshots at 250 yards, why not use that? Its more accurate and flatter shooting than a blackout. And there is plenty of hunting and varmint ammo in the 223 cartridge. You'll have a much better chance of hitting your target rather than doping your scope for 3 feet of drop at that distance with a black out.
But I know exactly where your coming from. Been there and done that this past year. And it just didn't give me what I want. Where I hunt, I have the opportunity for those 200+ yard shots and to me the ballistics just were not where I wanted them so I sold and went 308. But I totally understand where you're coming from. If you know your shot is 150, zero for that and it will be great. past 200, and you're guessing at your drop unless you have a rang card.
But I know exactly where your coming from. Been there and done that this past year. And it just didn't give me what I want. Where I hunt, I have the opportunity for those 200+ yard shots and to me the ballistics just were not where I wanted them so I sold and went 308. But I totally understand where you're coming from. If you know your shot is 150, zero for that and it will be great. past 200, and you're guessing at your drop unless you have a rang card.
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Where I will be hunting I will have the opportunity to get very precise drops to about 150-200. Keep in mind that very few shots would be taken at 150, most would be 40-75 range. I have taken deer with a .223 headshot and yes it works great, but there may be a time where a headshot may be out of the question such as with a buck (yes I know it is not legal to keep antlers on a crop damage permit) but during the open season. Also I would like to get into hog hunting, and I hear the 300blk is the cartridge of choice for a lot of guys, while some hate it. As popular as it is right now, I see it as if I don't like it or it's not what I want, it'd be a rather easy sell or trade. Whereas a 6.5 may not be as easy. I may also try it on smaller varmints such as groundhogs and coyotes. I like noslers varmaggeddon in .223 but hey it's worth a try. Found an upper for a pretty good price so why not?
I agree with you...go for it. Its a fun gun. Mine shot exactly like my 223 and I sold it in 1 day putting it up on a gun trader board. And one day if they pass suppressor hunting in your neck of the woods that's fun too.
For hogs Id recommend the 125gr SST, lots of guys having great results with it. Sounds like you've got your mind made up and this round will do what youre wanting. If it was me Id load up some 62gr barnes in the 223 and let her rip. I just don't see the benefit of the 300blk for what youre doing. If youre looking for an excuse for a new rifle then by all means get one. Cant have too many guns.
Hey speed, where are you getting that the blkout drops 3 feet at 200 yrds shooting supers? I can see that with subs, but not supers.
Im not negitive with the blkout. I have 2 and love them both. I want a Encore barrel as well in blkout. Kyle if your wanting it for hunting out to 200yrds go for it. I sold my 556 upper after having my blkout for a year. My 16" blkout will do what my 556 did for me and my needs. I have hit steel out to 450yrds with 125gn Nosler BT, and hit harder than a 556 with regular ball ammo.
I used Hornadys ballistic calculator. I used 2K FPS with the barnes 110 gr TTSx which has a BC of .289. Zeroed at 100 yards, the drop is estimated at 10 inches at 200 and 35.1 inches at 300 yards. That's why I said I personally don't think its viable for 200+ yard headshots with out a good range card and range finder. To much drop when you have to hit a max 6" deviation on a deer head. But that's just me personally. Pinging steel at that distance is not hard.
I was basing mine on 130gr. If you can get 2400, that's more like a 9" drop at 300.
Seems like people have enough time behind the 300 BLK now that we've got its abilities pretty well pinned down. I get what you are saying about taking headshots if possible, but taking a lung shot if necessary.
My reason for the 300 BLK is that it is very efficient in an 8-10" barrel and allows me to keep OAL short with a suppressor. Shooting supers through a 9" barrel without the suppressor is obnoxious and I don't plan on ever doing it again. It throws a 3' flame ball. If you are going with a 16"+ barrel, I'd do a 6.5 or 6.8. I don't have experience with either, but the ballistics don't lie. They are just much better suited for the job. There's nothing wrong with getting the 300 BLK for a fun gun that will give you some better knockdown than a 5.56, but for the most effective tool for the job in an AR15, its going to be 6.5/6.8. I'll be doing a 6.5 Grendel for my next hunting AR, because of the much improve ballistics, better knockdown power, and I already load for the 6.5 CM and Swede, so I've got commonality in bullets.
The 300 BLK will always have a place with me for night-time pig hunting where I may walk a couple miles through a field and burn through 30 rounds without worrying about where my brass ends up or wasting ammo. I'd hate to lose 30 pieces of Grendel brass.
My reason for the 300 BLK is that it is very efficient in an 8-10" barrel and allows me to keep OAL short with a suppressor. Shooting supers through a 9" barrel without the suppressor is obnoxious and I don't plan on ever doing it again. It throws a 3' flame ball. If you are going with a 16"+ barrel, I'd do a 6.5 or 6.8. I don't have experience with either, but the ballistics don't lie. They are just much better suited for the job. There's nothing wrong with getting the 300 BLK for a fun gun that will give you some better knockdown than a 5.56, but for the most effective tool for the job in an AR15, its going to be 6.5/6.8. I'll be doing a 6.5 Grendel for my next hunting AR, because of the much improve ballistics, better knockdown power, and I already load for the 6.5 CM and Swede, so I've got commonality in bullets.
The 300 BLK will always have a place with me for night-time pig hunting where I may walk a couple miles through a field and burn through 30 rounds without worrying about where my brass ends up or wasting ammo. I'd hate to lose 30 pieces of Grendel brass.
I love to quote this video because people everywhere claim the BO is a short range round.
They are shooting a 300 BO accurately to 700m.
They are shooting a 300 BO accurately to 700m.
When I burn up my pnw ammo I plan to try the 110gr black tips. The posted results on them have been very good as well.
That's great.....but Im no army sniper marksman. He even says at 450 yards hold over is 100"s. I don't care what you can ping at what distance, Im not going to work that hard and guess my ballistics on a lethal deer kill. Ill just use my 308 or 300 win mag with flatter trajectory to get the job done. As I mentioned above, Ive had a 300 BO, Lots of good things about it like he mentions in that video. Also as I mentioned, to have a 100 yard zero and still effectively make headshots at 250, you'll need a range card and range finder. If I had all day to dope the optics for that range it would be great, but deer/hog hunting you often have seconds, not minutes to guess.
Im not knocking the cartridge at all. DDAVIS and I are on the same page. Its a great round IMO for under 150 yrds. But there are much better options for farther.
Im not knocking the cartridge at all. DDAVIS and I are on the same page. Its a great round IMO for under 150 yrds. But there are much better options for farther.
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so after some research i have found that with a barnes ttsx bullet that guys are pushing at 2350fps, the drop would be about 8MOA at 300 yards, retaining 650 ft/lbs of energy and still supersonic. oddly enough, and i dont know why this is, my rem. 700 in .308 has the same dope at 300 yards. it has always acted weird with the drops, veering off from what other people have had with their .308. im running 175 smk's @2650 fps. but that is a subject for another place. the "recommended energy" to take down a deer is 1000 ft/lbs. however, there are many accounts of complete pass throughs with around 400 ft/lbs. so this pretty well clears up that an ethical kill shot (well placed) could be made on a whitetail out to 550 yards where the bullet would go subsonic. the video posted above shows that with a good load, shots out to 700m can be placed on target. while the shots in the video were by no means even close to MOA accuracy, and would have insane drop, probably more than 10 feet. however, i think this shows that the round is versatile enough to make a 100 yard headshot on a deer or even a lung shot that would produce a humane kill. now, i am not saying i am right, just my opinion.
Plenty of deer have been killed with pistols, 45acp has roughly 500ftlbs at the muzzle. 300blk has plenty of ass to kill something if you can hit it out to 500yds. For shits and grins Im going to take my 300blk to the 1000yd range when I test my 308 and 300wm loads.
Since you stated that will rarely shoot past 150 yards and are primarily going to be shooting for the head you will be fine with a blackout.
The 1:7's that I have experience with shoot the 100-125 supersonic bullets very accurately.
I also have a 1:8 that does not seem to fully stabilize the 200-220 grain subsonic bullets very well. The accuracy in that rifle is non-existent past about 50 yards. I would not think twice about going with the 1:7 for what you have listed. 125 yard zero ought to serve you well.
The 1:7's that I have experience with shoot the 100-125 supersonic bullets very accurately.
I also have a 1:8 that does not seem to fully stabilize the 200-220 grain subsonic bullets very well. The accuracy in that rifle is non-existent past about 50 yards. I would not think twice about going with the 1:7 for what you have listed. 125 yard zero ought to serve you well.
I own 2 5.56 ar and have been researching for two years on another caliber in an ar to hunt deer with where shots will never be beyond a 200 yards. I do not reload and wanted a lighter weight rifle than an ar-10. I chose the 6.8 spec ii route. I got the gun last week and only got to hunt deer a couple of days with it, did not get to kill anything with it. I thought about going the reloading route and looked at the 300blk because of the same reasons with the common parts between 5.56 and 300blk, brass, bolts, mags, etc. I have watched and noticed there are alot of factory loadings for 6.8 these days, both the regular loads and the hotter tactical loadings. The hog hunters in Texas love the 6.8 and there are alot of deer falling victim to the 6.8 everywhere. Word is there are lots of foreign military going the 6.8 route as well as some of our military and some federal law enforcement due to better ballistics over the 5.56. I would never hesitate to shoot a deer with a 5.56 using a head shot, dead. If you are not always given a head shot, the 6.8 will do the trick. I also thought about going the 308 ar route. It just came down to me that I did not want to wag around the extra weight of the 308 ar, that is the only reason on not going the 308 route. The 308 might be my favorite caliber, followed closely by the 5.56 All that being said, there is nothing wrong with getting another rifle/upper. Your choice. Good luck.
The bullets fully expand to close to 0.60 caliber even at 300 yards and even from a 9 inch barrel!
If you think guessing about 9 inches is hard (though not really a guess since we know it is 9 inches), you should try archery.
At 300 yards, 300 BLK it will make a 50 caliber hole 24 inches through the gel.
Barnes has hunted some large animals with it:
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300 BLK will shoot from 0 to 230 yards with only 3 inches of drop.
Saying that it is only great to 100-125 yards is ridiculous, unless you are shooting it from a 4 inch barrel - in which case I would agree.
There is no accuracy issue with that twist rate.
This is my 1/7 twist 9 inch upper. I shot it with the AAC suppressor and factory ammo at 100 yards using an Aimpoint Micro and no magnifier. This is not just my best group - it is my only group with this setup. I shot it once, and this was the group (the caliper is set to 1/2 inch):
I then put on an Eotech and tried again, and the group was about the same.
I never debated the knockdown power or accuracy. I know it's there...I had one. But I don't agree with your comment about distance and drop. I researched all of the ammo combinations for quite some time using ballistics calculators. And I'm not the only one here with the same results. Look at what we are trying to discuss in the thread.....head shot accuracy at up too 250 yards. I never said the gun wasn't capable or accurate. But you'll need to be comfortable with ranging targets and ballistics because the drop is certainly more than 3" between 100 and 230 yards as you mentioned.
There are always cases of "well I did this or that". The Internet is full of them. As an avid reloader and shooter, I'm not going to chase range cards and mildots to make that shot then wonder if I need to hit softer tissue rather than a shoulder. You shot a great group with your gun...congrats. And I'm sure some one had a close encounter or took a bear with a number of shots with a blackout. The anomalies are there with every gun. A coworker of mine pings steel at a mile relentlessly with a 308. Not a 50, or 338, or a winmag... A regular hand loaded 308 win. So yes, there are some out there have great success with certain callibers. But as I've already mentioned, if your gun is sighted at 100 and you don't range a 250 yard head shot, you'll miss. Because the drop is way more than 3".
There are always cases of "well I did this or that". The Internet is full of them. As an avid reloader and shooter, I'm not going to chase range cards and mildots to make that shot then wonder if I need to hit softer tissue rather than a shoulder. You shot a great group with your gun...congrats. And I'm sure some one had a close encounter or took a bear with a number of shots with a blackout. The anomalies are there with every gun. A coworker of mine pings steel at a mile relentlessly with a 308. Not a 50, or 338, or a winmag... A regular hand loaded 308 win. So yes, there are some out there have great success with certain callibers. But as I've already mentioned, if your gun is sighted at 100 and you don't range a 250 yard head shot, you'll miss. Because the drop is way more than 3".
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^^^^^^^^^
This right here.
This round is so over-hyped it isn't funny anymore. It is good for one thing, and that is a suppressed super heavy high BC bullet pushed to subsonic speeds, i.e. SLOW! Good for close range and nothing else. At 300 yds. the bullet drop is 7 1/2 feet! From 200 yds. to 300 yds. this thing is falling out of the sky at 10" per 20 yds. So, it's pretty hard to get a good zero past 200. Yet 300 blackout boifans talk like this will kill elk at 500 yds. It's simple this will get out to 200 yds, but not effectively beyond that.
Gun / Ammunition : 300 AAC Blackout
Bullet : .308, 110, Barnes Black Tip
Bullet weight : 110 grains or 7.13 Grams
Muzzle velocity : 2400 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.290@V>2800 fps;
C2=0.290@V>2000 fps;
C3=0.290@V>1350 fps;
C4=0.290@V>0 fps;
Optimum trajectory information :
Optimum sight-in range (X) = 205 Yds.
with max. ordinate above LOS at range (M)= 122 Yds.
and max. point blank range (P)= 236 Yds.
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Sight-in clicks, 1 click = 0.915 cm/100 yd. or 0.36 in/100 yd.
Height of sight above bore axis = 6.1 cm or 2.402 inch
Gun is zeroed-in at 205 yds,
by sighting-in at level firing
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Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 33 fps
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·Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds ·
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| 0 2400 0.0000 1407 -2.4 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
| 25 2327 0.0318 1323 -0.5 0.1 0.34 0.2 +5.1 +1.76 0.35
| 50 2256 0.0646 1243 +1.1 0.4 0.72 0.8 -6.0 -2.06 0.71
| 75 2186 0.0986 1167 +2.2 0.8 1.08 1.8 -8.1 -2.78 1.08
| 100 2117 0.1335 1095 +2.8 1.5 1.43 3.3 -7.9 -2.71 1.46
| 125 2050 0.1694 1026 +3.0 2.3 1.77 5.3 -6.7 -2.30 1.85
| 150 1984 0.2061 961 +2.7 3.3 2.08 7.7 -5.0 -1.72 2.25
| 175 1918 0.2440 898 +1.9 4.4 2.43 10.7 -2.9 -1.01 2.67
| 200 1854 0.2838 839 +0.4 6.0 2.84 14.3 -0.5 -0.18 3.10
| 225 1792 0.3254 784 -1.8 7.8 3.30 18.6 +2.2 +0.75 3.56
| 236 1765 0.3442 761 -2.9 8.7 3.50 20.7 +3.5 +1.19 3.76
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M = Peak vs. L.O.S, X = Set Zero, P = Max. Point Blank Range
Elevation above Angle of Site (0.0 deg.) = 0.1359
I showed how the Barnes bullet expands to more than 50 caliber and penetrates 20 inches at 300 yards from a 9 inch barrel. That seems like it would be effective. The drop at that range is not hard to account for - if you aim for the head you will hit the chest. Shooting at much farther ranges is difficult. I tried at 600 yards and made several hits on a man-sized target and one within the ~0.5 MOA (3 inch) bullseye - but could not do it every time.
As for the max effective range, it depends what you count as effective. The US Army rates the max effective range of the M4 as 500 meters.
That is an M855 bullet at 2900 fps - which is 100 inches of drop, 41 inches of drift in a 10 mph crosswind, and 291 fpe.
A 16 inch 300 BLK with Remington 125 grain Match ammo at 2220 fps has the same:
- 100 inches of drop at 440 meters.
- 41 inches of drift at 484 meters.
- 291 fpe at 700 meters.
While the 300 BLK has far more energy, the military goes by hit probability. If we consider that drift and drop is what effects hit probability and discount the energy advantage of 300 BLK, then we can average the others into 462 meters.
So using Army M4 standards, the max effective range of 300 BLK is 460 meters from a 16 inch barrel, or 440 meters from a 9 inch barrel.
Even so, I am more conservative and tend to talk about 300 BLK as a 300 meter round - the same range that the Army trains to.
And 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel and Remington 125 ammo has the same energy at the muzzle as an M4 with its 14.5 inch barrel and M855.
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Your argument is invalid. Your chart shows a 205 yard zero just so you coukd show a particular drop. WE ARENT TALKING ABOUT THE CARTRIDGES EFFECTIVE RANGE! How many times do we need to say it? Because multiple people already have.reread the thread.
I said "300 BLK will shoot from 0 to 230 yards with only 3 inches of drop. " and you replied "But I don't agree with your comment about distance and drop. "
I posted a chart showing that in fact you can shoot all the way from 0 to 230 yards and never go more than 3 inches high or low.
Now you complain that I didn't zero at your same range. So what? It turns out that for max point blank range you want to use a computer to pick the ideal zero.
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Speedster00 said:
It seems like you were saying it is not effective past 150 yards to me. Here are your past quotes:
Speedster00 said:
Speedster00 said:
Speedster00 said:
I suggest the Barnes Black Tip bullet which is launched at 2400 fps, and people report that it expands down to 1300 fps (it was designed for 300 BLK). Then use the load recipe from their website, and set impact to be 2.5 inches high at 100 yards.
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Whisper/blackout 700 yards?! lol. That is a marketing stunt and totally useless.
Simply do the math and then you can revisit your post.
I have no idea where you are getting your data. I've used balistic calculator s and looked at every bullet made. As I recall Barnes even says on their website that for best expansion keep velocity above 1600.it falls below that at 200 yards if I remember correctly. And the numbers I posted where from horndays calculator so I'm not sure how you're pulling those numbers. Maybe you have the magical cartridge and bullets with un heard of BC. We've been discussing drop and making head shots on deer out too 250. In fact, tac tv had an episode shooting the blackout vs an ak and both wer shooting 6" low or more at200 with a hundred yard zero . Like I said others chimed in as well, we have never seen the gun shoot as flat as you claim.. if yours does, great. I'm tired of talking about it
I am responsible for 300 BLK at AAC and Barnes created these bullets with my input. I don't have to look at their website because I was there for the development every step of the way, but if you want to, here is what their website says:
New TAC-TX | Barnes Bullets
Barnes took after shooting at their own 300 yard range - why do you keep on ignoring it?
I used a BC of 0.290 - which was plainly visible in my chart - and very realistic because it was measured from a 300 BLK rifle. It is not so high that you should find it hard to believe, as Sierra even lists the BC of their 125 match bullet at a much higher 0.338.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2121/308-dia-125-gr-HP-MatchKing
Seems like you were iterating what you saw Tac-TV with an episode that was famously blundered. Larry did not mention which BLK ammo was used, and had it sighted in several inches low at 25 yards. Out of all of the rifles he tested, they were not even zeroed to the same point.
Of course it shoots as flat as I claim - anyone can calculate it. Really you should not even say that without running the calculation yourself and trying to see if you are correct or not. I posted an actual ballistic chart that anyone can reproduce with their own software, such as JBM, with the BC plainly visible and with a velocity 15 fps lower than Barnes shows for the load data here:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/300-AAC-Blackout-110gr-TAC-TX.pdf
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A whisper/blackout at 700 yards. This is one of the funniest thing I ever heard. LOL There is a special ballistics model in the land of the unicorns where the 22LR is used to hunt cape buffalo 1 click away. LOL
The effective range of the 308 winchester is 800meters. Well trained shooters (ie military sniper team) will make it cash the check at 1 click transonic depending on Altitude and atmospherics
We need no tv shows to understand ballistics. The 7.62x39 has the capacity to launch a 125gr at same speed a blackout can
shoot a 110gr bullet out of a 16" barrel. A 125gr is 120fps faster on average from a russian round.
Also the Russian has the capacity to shoot a 150gr bullet at 2100fps.
look it up folks and stop dreaming fantasies.
Some folks might be smoking something very nice. I think I want to try it.
BTW I enjoy shooting the whisper in subsonic mode that is where it really shines. Otherwise one might well look into a 30+P carbine.
If I'm wrong ill be the first to admit it. I've never seen data like that showing the blackout that flat.
Let's go with this analogy. Looking up an M-110C - it launches a 175 grain M118-LR at 2495 fps.
Ballistic Coefficient Information:
.505 @ 2800 fps and above
.496 between 2800 and 1800 fps
.485 @ 1800 fps and below
If we set the same +- 3 inch setting for max point blank range, the optimal sight in distance is 229 yards, and it will have 3 inches of drop at 265 yards. So you only get 40 yards more max point blank range than 300 BLK.
Now let's change the zero to 300 meters, and at 800 meters, the 308 has 256 inches of drop, 355 inches of total drop, and 81 inches of crosswind deflection (10mph). Note that the trajectory will go 8.1 inches above the line of sight with the 300 meter zero.
At what range does 300 BLK have these same specs with the Barnes bullet?
First we have to find the equivalent zero range where the trajectory also goes 8.1 inches above the line of sight. That zero range is 265 meters.
300 BLK has 256 inches of drop at 670 meters.
It has the 355 inches of total drop at 675 meters.
It has the 81 inches of crosswind deflection at 600 meters.
Now let's average these, and that comes to 648.
Therefore, if M118-LR 308 is good to 800 meters for a sniper from an M110-C, 300 BLK is good to 650 meters with the Barnes Black Tip.
Now lets run it for the Remington Match ammo:
Muzzle velocity - 2220 fps.
Ballistic Coefficient Information:
2,650 FPS and Above: .349
Between 2,000-2,650 FPS: .338
Between 1,600-2,000 FPS: .330
1,600 FPS and Below: .310
First we have to find the equivalent zero range, where the trajectory also goes 8.1 inches above the line of sight. That zero range is 252 meters.
It has 256 inches of drop at 654 meters.
It has the 355 inches of total drop at 659 meters.
It has the 81 inches of crosswind deflection at 604 meters.
Now let's average these, and that comes to 639 meters.
Therefore, if M118-LR 308 is good to 800 meters for a sniper from an M110-C, 300 BLK is good to 640 meters with the Remington 125 Match ammo.
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