There sure is a lot of misinformation in this thread. If anyone is only getting 2000 FPS muzzle velocity in the 300 Blackout from 110-130 grain bullets either your chronograph is malfunctioning or your reloading process needs review. I have a 300 Blk with a 16 inch 5R barrel. I get 2500 FPS with 110 grain Barnes TTSX blue tips, 2400 FPS with Barnes 110 SBR(30834), 2340 FPS with 125 grn Sierra Pro Hunters, and 2300 with Hornady 130 SP's. Here are some ballistic tables using data that I recorded through my 300 Blackout within the last 30 days. The Barnes 110 grn Tac-X 30834 SBR bullet will expand down to 1500 FPS. That's not quite as good as the 110 gn Barnes Blacktip that was specifically designed for the Blackout but it should still expand out to 275 yards so lets put that 100-150 yard number to rest right now.
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300 blackout
- Thread starter kyle528
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A Sierra 175 MK loaded to 2.245 OAL in Remington brass and with a 7.5 primer with 20.0 grains of A1680 will do 1900 fps in a 16 inch test barrel, and that is at 55,000 psi pressure.
That is the same velocity that an M110-C will send the same bullet at 165 yards.
What whatever range you consider the M110-C, subtract 165 from that, and that is the range of the same bullet from 300 BLK.
800 meters was mentioned. 165 yards is 150 meters. 800 - 150 is 650.
Wow - the same 650 meter max range that I claimed in the previous post. Math works.
That is the same velocity that an M110-C will send the same bullet at 165 yards.
What whatever range you consider the M110-C, subtract 165 from that, and that is the range of the same bullet from 300 BLK.
800 meters was mentioned. 165 yards is 150 meters. 800 - 150 is 650.
Wow - the same 650 meter max range that I claimed in the previous post. Math works.
You picked the wrong rifle for your so called "comparative" where the effective range is drastically reduced.
The M118LR is optimized to run in 20"-22" auto loaders and 22"-25" bolt action so using this round in a
16" barrel is a total waste of powder and resources. Little carbines are not what give the full effective range to high power service rounds.
So don't comment on small sections of posts to then transverse them into some out of context type of analysis.
When the LMT L129A1 was deployed in Afganistan to the British troops it came with British 155gr sniper ammo.
For all intends and purposes the 155gr is the ballistic twin of a 155gr Sierra Match Palma bullet. Other than
an accurate M80 equivalent like those produced by the RUAG and DAG that is the best one is going to get
out of an otherwise inefficient 16" auto loader for a 308w.
This provides break speed past 900 yards as well as 9.5 mills of elevation.
The 16" 155gr is launched at similar speeds as the original 20" M110 launches a M118LR.
So lets try again...
Ballistics Results - 16" Whisper/Blackout 125gr SMK
Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.326 Velocity (ft/s) 2200 Weight (grains) 125
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT (IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2200 1343 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 1960 1066 3.8 -3.6 -1.1 1.5 1.4 0.4
200 1737 838 0 0 0 6.1 2.9 0.8
300 1535 654 -15.3 4.9 1.4 14.5 4.6 1.3
400 1356 511 -45.6 10.9 3.2 27.1 6.5 1.9
500 1208 405 -94.7 18.1 5.3 44.4 8.5 2.5
600 1097 334 -167.7 26.7 7.8 66.4 10.6 3.1
700 1017 287 -269.6 36.8 10.7 92.5 12.6 3.7
800 957 254 -405.2 48.4 14.1 122.1 14.6 4.2
900 909 229 -578.9 61.4 17.9 154.9 16.4 4.8
1000 867 209 -794.7 75.9 22.1 190.5 18.2 5.3
SUBSONIC PAST 500 YARDS
Ballistics Results - 16" 308W 155gr RG/RUAG (Sierra Palma Match)
Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.427 Velocity (ft/s) 2580 Weight (grains) 155
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT (IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2580 2291 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2378 1946 2.3 -2.2 -0.6 0.9 0.9 0.2
200 2185 1643 0 0 0 3.6 1.7 0.5
300 2002 1379 -9.6 3.1 0.9 8.4 2.7 0.8
400 1828 1149 -28 6.7 1.9 15.5 3.7 1.1
500 1664 953 -56.8 10.8 3.2 25.3 4.8 1.4
600 1514 789 -98.1 15.6 4.5 38.2 6.1 1.8
700 1377 653 -154.7 21.1 6.1 54.3 7.4 2.2
800 1258 545 -229.7 27.4 8 74 8.8 2.6
900 1159 462 -326.6 34.7 10.1 97.3 10.3 3
1000 1082 403 -449.6 42.9 12.5 124.1 11.9 3.4
SUBSONIC PAST 900 YARDS
6.1 MILS at 700 YARDS
10 MILS at 900 YARDS
Even if we just take a more fair comparative with the popular 80gr Amax from a 16" 5.56 upper that is more appropriate
for a small super light carbine.
Ballistics Results - 16" AR - 223Rem 80gr Amax (Double tap)
Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.453 Velocity (ft/s) 2625 Weight (grains) 80
Maximum Range (yds) 1000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT (IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2625 1224 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2432 1051 2.2 -2.1 -0.6 0.8 0.8 0.2
200 2248 898 0 0 0 3.3 1.6 0.5
300 2072 763 -9.1 2.9 0.8 7.6 2.4 0.7
400 1904 644 -26.3 6.3 1.8 14.1 3.4 1
500 1745 541 -53.1 10.1 3 23 4.4 1.3
600 1597 453 -91.4 14.5 4.2 34.5 5.5 1.6
700 1460 379 -143.4 19.6 5.7 49 6.7 1.9
800 1337 317 -211.7 25.3 7.3 66.7 8 2.3
900 1230 269 -299.5 31.8 9.2 87.8 9.3 2.7
1000 1141 231 -410.4 39.2 11.4 112.4 10.7 3.1
SUBSONIC PAST 900 YARDS
5.7 MILS at 700 YARDS
9.2 MILS at 900 YARDS
AT 700 YARDS...
Whisper/Blackout
700 1017 287 -269.6 36.8 10.7 92.5 12.6 3.7
233Rem
700 1460 379 -143.4 19.6 5.7 49 6.7 1.9
Almost twice times better on everything.
Comparing M1 +P+ 30 carbine like ballistics with high power rifles doesn't make any sense in an otherwise
pretty attractive platform for subsonic work.
You might think we are a bunch of fools here or air-soft kids who do not have a clue about applied ballistics.
People in the forums like to have objective analysis and comparatives and not threads equivalent of telemarketing
stunts shooting 700 yards with pistol like calibers and attributing super natural powers to cases with 21grs of powder.
There are many good applications for the whiser/blackout and people can have lots of fun with it but from there
to what I see in those stunt videos we are going to run into impossible walls.
If you are the same rsilvers that I see in other forums come clean and update your profile as the seller of the Blackout.
Then people will know where you are coming from. Simply be honest.
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So how are those 80's working out in your AR mags?
You guys take this stuff way too seriously. A blind man can tell you a .308 Win case holds more powder than a 300 BLK case... resulting in a faster projectile. Comparing the two is like comparing a Scion to a Corvette. The 300 BLK is the American version of the AK or the modern day M1 Carbine. Is there anything wrong with that? Not really. I'm sure there have been just as many lives lost from an AK-47 round as there have been from a M-16/M4.
The 300 BLK makes an effective self-defense, military, hunting, and plinking gun up to 200 yards. Would I want to punch paper in a competition with it at 600 yards? Not really. I'll take my AR or M1A for that. Do I enjoy shooting it as much as the rest of my rifles, certainly.
E, do us a favor. Run your results with a 62gr M855, 123gr 7.62x39, and 125gr SMK in 300 BLK and let us know what you get. BTW, use velocities from 16" barrels, not published numbers from a 22". If you need some help go here: Factory chrono data
The concept of loads being "optimized" for a certain barrel length is a myth and/or marking BS. For example, whatever powder will give the most velocity in a 26 inch barrel will also give the most velocity in a 16 inch barrel. That being said, some loads are better choices than others - and the 155 bullet was probably a better choice all along. If you object to the M118LR load being selected, then sure, we can go with the 155 grain bullet and repeat.
300 BLK with a 155 grain Sierra is 1990 fps 16 inch barrel with factory ammo. QuickLoad says that you can get 2075 fps at 55,000 psi, but we can stick to a conservative load so as to not over-hype what you can expect from factory ammo.
300 BLK Match 155gr BTHP (Box of 20) - 300 AAC Blackout - Rifle Ammunition
The 155 grain ammo you speak about has a velocity of 2475 fps from the LMT:
What do yall think about the Brit's choosing the LMT L129A1? - Page 4
"The RG 155 grn round is not sold commercially. We tested it and recorded muzzle velocity (16" barrel) at 2,475 fps."
Using Sierra's segmented BC data, that will drop to 300 BLK's 1990 fps at 238 meters.
So there you go with the load of your choosing - 308 has a 238 meter advantage over 300. If you consider the max range from the 308 to be 900 yards (822 meters), then 300 BLK would be good to 639 yards.
A 300 BLK has as much energy at 180 yards as an M1 Carbine load from a 16 inch barrel does at the muzzle. It is misleading to imply that 300 BLK is like a hot M1 Carbine load. In reality it is like 7.62z39mm.
You are a member for one month and now you represent the community? My ballistics were accurate and reproducible by anyone. I doubt people will take the time to re-run my calculations, but they can if they want to and see that they were accurate. I would not even post something non-demonstrably false let alone something that is demonstrably false.
Seriously - you joined this forum in October 2013 - like last month - and you are calling me out on who I am - a member for more than eight years? It is odd that you would think that I am trying to hide my identity when you post anonymously and I have been the same rsilvers for 27 years online using my real name.
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We may as well cover the full spectrum of bullet weights:
110 V-Max from a 16 inch 308 is 2857 fps.
Hornadyle.com - 110 gr. TAP URBAN®
300 Whisper is 2375 fps. In 300 BLK it can do over 2400 fps at 55,000 psi, but we can go with 2375 to be conservative.
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: 300 Whisper® :: 300 Whisper® 110 gr V-MAX®
Using a BC of 0.295, the 308 will drop to the 300 BLK velocity at 125 yards or 114 meters.
So there you go - depending on the load, 300 BLK loses between 114 and 238 meters in range compared to whatever you consider the range of 308 to be.
110 V-Max from a 16 inch 308 is 2857 fps.
Hornadyle.com - 110 gr. TAP URBAN®
300 Whisper is 2375 fps. In 300 BLK it can do over 2400 fps at 55,000 psi, but we can go with 2375 to be conservative.
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Rifle :: Choose by Caliber :: 300 Whisper® :: 300 Whisper® 110 gr V-MAX®
Using a BC of 0.295, the 308 will drop to the 300 BLK velocity at 125 yards or 114 meters.
So there you go - depending on the load, 300 BLK loses between 114 and 238 meters in range compared to whatever you consider the range of 308 to be.
When I say something about a round is not from reading online or watching youtuber stunts but from shooting with it.
Have tested most of the commercial ammo in the whisper/blackout and in many other commercial and wildcat calibers
for both the AR15 and larger 308w based portfolio.
I measure performance and shared with other folks and teams not excluding advisory personal and teams for those
who want to use them on jobs.
Everyone who has any decent experience with the 308w knows what a waste is to shoot the std 308w on a 16" portfolio.
Regarding 155gr sniper ammo optimized BS myth. Call radway green (now BAE) engineers and tell them they were wrong
and didn't had to reformulate the load and powders in their 155gr sniper rounds.
From early stages of deployment everyone knew neither the 168gr nor the 175gr grain rounds were going to be the ammo
and that is why the LMTs were shipped with 155gr British sniper rounds. We could smelled the "palma flavor" in the air.
Sharpshooter: The UK?s New L129A1 7.62x51mm Rifle
This forum seems to have some serious and good information for the most part. This thread is not the case.
If someone thinks the blackout is a good long reach option then, hey, have fun with it. Dreaming is free!!.
I am outta here!!!
Have tested most of the commercial ammo in the whisper/blackout and in many other commercial and wildcat calibers
for both the AR15 and larger 308w based portfolio.
I measure performance and shared with other folks and teams not excluding advisory personal and teams for those
who want to use them on jobs.
Everyone who has any decent experience with the 308w knows what a waste is to shoot the std 308w on a 16" portfolio.
Regarding 155gr sniper ammo optimized BS myth. Call radway green (now BAE) engineers and tell them they were wrong
and didn't had to reformulate the load and powders in their 155gr sniper rounds.
From early stages of deployment everyone knew neither the 168gr nor the 175gr grain rounds were going to be the ammo
and that is why the LMTs were shipped with 155gr British sniper rounds. We could smelled the "palma flavor" in the air.
Sharpshooter: The UK?s New L129A1 7.62x51mm Rifle
This forum seems to have some serious and good information for the most part. This thread is not the case.
If someone thinks the blackout is a good long reach option then, hey, have fun with it. Dreaming is free!!.
I am outta here!!!
I don't see this as 16 inch ammo vs 20 inch ammo but rather this RD ammo that would probably be better in the 20 inch also than M118LR. Which would you rather fire in a 20 inch?
They probably came up with a load optimal for the LMT gas system and tuned it to be accurate in that rifle - and maybe optimized flash suppressants.
What I was getting at is if you select a powder that gives the 155 bullet the most velocity from a 16 inch barrel, it will probably be the same powder that also gives the most velocity from a 20 inch barrel. You can't use a significantly faster powder for a shorter barrel because you are limited by the peak chamber pressure, which for 308 happens within the first 2 inches of bullet movement - and that is within the length of even the shortest barrel. Powder burn speed is something that you change for bullet mass rather than barrel length. I know people change it for barrel length also, but that is what I am generally calling a myth as to the benefit. It has some effect, but very small.
No one thinks that 300 BLK is a good long range option. You just did what was called the Strawman - a method sometimes employed when one is not doing well with the actual argument, so they make it seem like something else is being argued.
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That is using JBM ballistics. I use Strelok in the field on my Android phone and find them to be very close.
Im looking for powder. Just starting to reload this stuff and Im finding that the powder is unavailable. I read that Accurate 1680 was the best to use but can’t find it. Is there a suitable alternative?
Vhit N-110 works well and is very clean and temp stable.
H-110 also works but is dirty and not temp stable.
A1680 is mostly a subsonic powder. You can us it for supersonic, but it will only give the most velocity for bullets over 150 grains. For typical 110-150 grain bullets most people use H110 or W296. You can also use Lil'Gun but it is best to not use a max load for that as it spikes pressure at very cold temps.
Indeed.
I have taken the BLK out to 500 Yards on several occasions, but haven't tried any further. I don't think anyone has said its a long range round, but it does do well at surprising distances. Keep in mind .45-70 was used in 1000 yard competitions. Just because its not the best at a certain task, doesn't mean it wont work at all for said task.
The naysayers are the same crowd that say shorter barrels are not as accurate. However, Ive made a barrel or two in my day, and found that many times, if you buy a long blank and make one long barrel and one short barrel out of it, the shorter one wins out in the accuracy department because its more rigid.
Not everything is for everybody, but it doesn't mean we have to piss on people that like things we don't. Its freakin America. (not directed at you Robert, just the thread in general)
FWIW, Ive met Robert on several occasions and get the impression that he is an honest, easy going guy.
I have shot 110 to 240 grain bullets in both a 1:7 and 1:8 twist AR and got 1 inch groups with super and sub-sonic loads.
I've had a lot of fun finding what loads work with cast and jacketed bullets.
Getting cast bullets to shoot 1 inch at 100 was the hardest but 11.3 grains RE-7 under a Noe 247PB does it in my Rem BG with 1:7 twist.
Fun to shoot and very quiet with can.
The 300BLK is the most efficient and versatile short barrel round I've played with.
My AAC 16 inch upper with 1:7 twist shoots 1 inch with 208 A-max over 10.6 grains 1680 and is quiet.
A good quality 1:7 upper will shoot bullets 110 to 240 grains accurately if you put the time in finding what it likes.
It only uses 10 to 20 grains powder and shoots a wide range of 30 cal bullets.
I don't see what's not to like.
If you get one you might want another.
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So how are those 80's working out in your AR mags?
You guys take this stuff way too seriously. A blind man can tell you a .308 Win case holds more powder than a 300 BLK case... resulting in a faster projectile. Comparing the two is like comparing a Scion to a Corvette. The 300 BLK is the American version of the AK or the modern day M1 Carbine. Is there anything wrong with that? Not really. I'm sure there have been just as many lives lost from an AK-47 round as there have been from a M-16/M4.
The 300 BLK makes an effective self-defense, military, hunting, and plinking gun up to 200 yards. Would I want to punch paper in a competition with it at 600 yards? Not really. I'll take my AR or M1A for that. Do I enjoy shooting it as much as the rest of my rifles, certainly.
E, do us a favor. Run your results with a 62gr M855, 123gr 7.62x39, and 125gr SMK in 300 BLK and let us know what you get. BTW, use velocities from 16" barrels, not published numbers from a 22". If you need some help go here: Factory chrono data
This is the whole point of this discussion. We say how far it "REALISTICALLY" goes, and RSilvers says, "Oh no!" "It goes much farther than that!" "It can kick ass clear out to 700 yds. competitively." The guy in the video _E provided even said competitively out to 1k. Riiiiiggghhhht...
He has his search engine set for ".300 Blackout/BLK" etc. Anytime anybody disagrees with him about it being the "best", one of these 3-4 page 'throw the numbers out there' threads ensues.
Plain and simple for RSilvers: the .300 Blackout can kick anythings ass because it does everything better.
I agree Rsilvers spouts his 300 is the best all over the Web using skewed figures and logic.... Constructor at m4carbine regularly takes him to school and calls him on his crap. That being said 300 shines Suppressed but unless shooting Suppressed there are better choices for my needs.
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I'd like one too. Specifically for shooting suppressed. But, when it comes to long range and a caliber that fits in an -15 platform, I'm not going to compromise and get the .300 BLK.
Because under the given conditions, CQB, it was ideal. Exactly why I would want one. But for open area warfare, they don't get the job done. They sure don't use them for their snipers and longer range precision shooters.
I shoot a 1-8 twistnand have stabalized everything from 110-220. The real fun with this caliber is the 220 running subsonic with a can. Other than that it makes a good 150yd deer gun. My next hog hunt will be with my blackout. On subsonic ammo you will get more speed out of a shorter barrel but with hot loads the 16 will gain you a little spees.
This road sign was shot, one time, from 1000 yds with the 300blk.
Who would have imagined a round with so little capacity could cause devastation like this?
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Too funny... Ya gotta pull somebody's chain once in a while. Fortunately, I didn't step too badly into the trap, as I know they have used them.
Too funny... Ya gotta pull somebody's chain once in a while. Fortunately, I didn't step too badly into the trap, as I know they have used them.
There was probably a huge influx of sales last night since the bad boys officially use it!
Well....apparently I stepped knee deep in it with rsilver....I was just tired of arguing.
Maybe we should all go sell everything we have because the blackout is the end all be all!!
Maybe we should all go sell everything we have because the blackout is the end all be all!!
I should have thought better of it myself. Stepped knee deep in it with him as well a few times. I'll give it it's due. But, holy cow! The numbers and claims he comes up with....
Where can I find this information? Wikipedia may not be the best source, but I've found it to be fairly reliable.
"One of them, Amal Ahmed Abdul Fatah, screamed at the SEALs in Arabic and motioned as if she were about to charge. One of the SEALs shot her in the leg, then grabbed both women and shoved them aside. A second SEAL entered the room and two SEALs shot Bin Laden in the chest with a H&K 416 using Navy M855 5.56 mm rounds."
He was kidding. Jeez Delta, now you have started your very own internet urban legend!
I'm not at all disagreeing with you. I'm just interested in reading the article that goes in depth so much as to say what caliber Osama Bin Laden was shot with. The Wikipedia page was just the first thing I came across.
Im not a high speed SEAL, but my unit used a lot of more effective stuff, like TAP, and even an entire pallet of 55g Remington HP's. When it became necessary to stop a vehicle, you either shoot it with something larger than 5.56, or have a plethora of guys dumping rounds into the windshield.
This road sign was shot, one time, from 1000 yds with the 300blk.
Who would have imagined a round with so little capacity could cause devastation like this?
Yeah I did that. Not sure why you didn't tell everyone that I was shooting my 1" thick AR500 target and it blew through and grazed the sign though...........
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