What degree tempilaq for annealing
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I have read on here 600 to 650 degrees I think 650 is the right answer and it is yellow in color.
From the article on 6mmbr.com
"The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds."
750 degree Tempilaq is what you want.
Joe
"The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds."
750 degree Tempilaq is what you want.
Joe
650. I place it on 3 different cases... time all three... then I write it down so I know how long to anneal all the others. For example, my 308 winchester takes 7-8 seconds, my 7.82 Warbird takes 11 seconds, my 6.5 Grendel with Lapua brass takes 6 seconds... one bottle will last a life time .
The exact temperature is difficult to pin down because available data generally refers to a one hour timeframe, and annealing isn't quite a black and white process (although it's close). Although there is much concern about over-annealing repeated around the internet, I think it's overblown. Once the dramatic part of the annealing is done, additional increases in temperature don't immediately ruin the brass. There is a dramatic drop in hardness followed by a slow decrease as you raise temperature, so temperature isn't as critical as a lot of people will say. For consistency's sake, I would try to control it, but it's not a matter of ruining the brass unless you go nuts.
The true annealing happens somewhere between 600 and 800 degrees. (The hotter it is, the faster it happens). More than that is not going to do much but make the brass a little softer and risk spreading too much heat to the case head. Less than that won't do anything at all. I haven't used the 650 tempilaq, but if people are getting results with that, then it's enough. It's simple enough to test the hardness by squashing a case neck before and after with some pliers. You should be able to tell the difference - the change you're looking for is dramatic. The strength of the brass before annealing will be about 85ksi, and after it should be closer to 20ksi. (these are very approximate numbers - the point is that there should be about a 75% drop in strength, which should be noticeable). One caveat is that if your'e annealing often, you may not see as big a drop because you aren't allowing the brass to fully harden.
The true annealing happens somewhere between 600 and 800 degrees. (The hotter it is, the faster it happens). More than that is not going to do much but make the brass a little softer and risk spreading too much heat to the case head. Less than that won't do anything at all. I haven't used the 650 tempilaq, but if people are getting results with that, then it's enough. It's simple enough to test the hardness by squashing a case neck before and after with some pliers. You should be able to tell the difference - the change you're looking for is dramatic. The strength of the brass before annealing will be about 85ksi, and after it should be closer to 20ksi. (these are very approximate numbers - the point is that there should be about a 75% drop in strength, which should be noticeable). One caveat is that if your'e annealing often, you may not see as big a drop because you aren't allowing the brass to fully harden.
I don't bother with Tempilac when I anneal. I prefer to use a Tempilstik heat crayon that melts at 750 degrees. Using a deep socket as a heat sink I put the turning case (using a cordless drill) into the flame and keep track of the time needed to cause the crayon to just start to melt when touching the case. The first few cases I heat, remove and quickly touch the crayon and then remove from the heat when I finally hit the "melt" temp.
Having been a music student in my college days I find it easy to just use the metronome in my head to get nice uniform "flame times" after I find the time needed to hit 750 degrees. Some have posted how they merely download a "Metronome App" for their smart phone and let it "tick-tock" in the background while they heat/dump/heat/dump.
I get nice and uniformly annealed cases that look just as good as the cases coming from a new box of Lapua Brass. Don't have any Tempilac to clean off after annealing either. Average time with my torch is about 4-5 seconds, depending on flame size. I only check the first two or three cases than it's just a case of "following a rhythm".
Having been a music student in my college days I find it easy to just use the metronome in my head to get nice uniform "flame times" after I find the time needed to hit 750 degrees. Some have posted how they merely download a "Metronome App" for their smart phone and let it "tick-tock" in the background while they heat/dump/heat/dump.
I get nice and uniformly annealed cases that look just as good as the cases coming from a new box of Lapua Brass. Don't have any Tempilac to clean off after annealing either. Average time with my torch is about 4-5 seconds, depending on flame size. I only check the first two or three cases than it's just a case of "following a rhythm".
Good info here. I thought timing a few cases was a better idea than using the Tempalik on all of them.
How many firings before you guys anneal? I know it's personal preference but I'm just trying to get a general idea.
How many firings before you guys anneal? I know it's personal preference but I'm just trying to get a general idea.
What degree tempilaq for annealing
Thanks Damon and Deadshot!! Good info!!
It's funny how some people who try to scare one away from annealing your own brass are usually brass retailers or guys who offer annealing services. Once you tried it for yourself, it's much easier than you thought.
One comment though. I get the whole touching the crayon thing after the case has been heated. That would work, and should give you a good idea of the temp at the neck.
But if you apply tempilaq or even tempilstick to a case beforehand, it changes the temperature you would need, because it can't be exposed to the flame. Or can it?
So if you are going for say 700 deg F at the neck, you might want to apply 450 deg F just below the shoulder. In theory it requires a calculation in thermodynamics, because the exact position of the 450deg F temp indicator will be a function of flame intensity. But thats overengineering. The question I'm trying to get to is can you hold tempilaq in the flame? If not, then it will influence your choice of temp rating.
I like Damon's pragmatic approach in determining the degree of annealing that took place. What tool/technique do you use to determine the case strength?
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Thanks Damon and Deadshot!! Good info!!
It's funny how some people who try to scare one away from annealing your own brass are usually brass retailers or guys who offer annealing services. Once you tried it for yourself, it's much easier than you thought.
One comment though. I get the whole touching the crayon thing after the case has been heated. That would work, and should give you a good idea of the temp at the neck.
But if you apply tempilaq or even tempilstick to a case beforehand, it changes the temperature you would need, because it can't be exposed to the flame. Or can it?
So if you are going for say 700 deg F at the neck, you might want to apply 450 deg F just below the shoulder. In theory it requires a calculation in thermodynamics, because the exact position of the 450deg F temp indicator will be a function of flame intensity. But thats overengineering. The question I'm trying to get to is can you hold tempilaq in the flame? If not, then it will influence your choice of temp rating.
I like Damon's pragmatic approach in determining the degree of annealing that took place. What tool/technique do you use to determine the case strength?
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As you said, it's a matter of personal preference. If I'm getting ready to "rotate out" some brass I'll just use it for fun shooting or for fouling shots. If I'm looking for drop dead, dependable, accuracy, I anneal after every shooting just for case neck consistency but only cases I intend to keep.
My AR's I anneal every time, not because I expect great accuracy but because I'm full length sizing every time so they get annealed every time as well for extended case life.
Also, when one anneals after every firing, they don't ever have to ask themselves "Let's see, does this batch have 3 firings or 4? Do I anneal before loading or do it next time?
Good info.
I use 750 inside the neck for about five cases or until I get the count down for the caliber/brass make... then roll on through the batch listening to my LOUD watch tick away suspended from a hat. Quite a sight judging from the look I got from my wife one evening, LOL.
You don't need that crap.
If you have any ability beyond changing lightbulbs, all you need is a torch, a drill, some sort of socket to hold the brass, and a semi darkened room. It is not rocket science.
If you have any ability beyond changing lightbulbs, all you need is a torch, a drill, some sort of socket to hold the brass, and a semi darkened room. It is not rocket science.
What degree tempilaq for annealing
So I guess if one only needs a darkened room I'm covered then?
Would you care to enlighten us on how you judge the correct amount of annealing? What color does the brass have to be before you stop?
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So I guess if one only needs a darkened room I'm covered then?
Would you care to enlighten us on how you judge the correct amount of annealing? What color does the brass have to be before you stop?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If you are in a darkened room, the second you see dull red at the mouth of the neck, while applying the blue cone inner flame to the neck shoulder junction, you are there STOP. This same tutorial is all over the internet. You can find it almost anywhere. The reason I have never made a video is the fact there is already so much identical information out there already. Here: The Art and Science of Annealing
There is no reason to hold the brass in your hand and play it in the flame. Use a socket and a drill. I watched a video recently where the guy played em in the flames by hand, I won't say who it was but it was not a very good example of how to consistently anneal brass.
Maybe I will make a video.
There is no reason to hold the brass in your hand and play it in the flame. Use a socket and a drill. I watched a video recently where the guy played em in the flames by hand, I won't say who it was but it was not a very good example of how to consistently anneal brass.
Maybe I will make a video.
So I guess if one only needs a darkened room I'm covered then?
Would you care to enlighten us on how you judge the correct amount of annealing? What color does the brass have to be before you stop?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Annealing process, timing, etc is subject to much debate. My personal opinion is this (again, this works for me, perhaps others have better/alternative ways). I strive for ultimate consistency when annealing, which results in consistent neck tension. I also anneal after every firing. I anneal by chucking up a piece of brass in a Lee case holder (comes with their case trim kits...perfect for annealing on the cheap) in my drill. I then set the drill at a specific height next to my torch, and I set it up to where I can move the drill to the same spot every time next to the flame, and the drill is fully supported so no human-induced wobble is there. That being said, back on topic, I anneal 260rem and 308 brass for exactly 7 seconds (8 is safe if you're quick, 10 is too hot) I also use a metronome so the brass is in the flame for the same exact time, every time. I used 400 degree tempilaq on the bottom 1.5 inches of the case, and 750 inside the neck, which is not subject to direct flame contact. Do this on 3-5 cases to get an idea of timing, then put away the tempilaq and you'll never use it again for that cartridge type. Now I can rest 100% assured that the base is never going above 400 degrees, and the case is perfectly annealed. I will also note, the color you get on the brass after it is annealed is not a good way to judge the annealing job. If I tried to make my brass look like Lapua factory brass, it would be toasted. Also...grab 1-2 cases and intentionally screw it up...see what happens when you leave it in the flame a bit too long. That way you know your thresholds and what the case will look like if you screw up. Again, do what works for you, but this method has produced amazing results for me and I didn't have to spend $400+ on an annealing machine.
TLDR: You can anneal brass without tempilaq just fine. I recommend tempilaq if $$ is not an issue and/or you want peace of mind. I use it for peace of mind. Use a metronome app on your smartphone.
What degree tempilaq for annealing
Thanks!
This is what my procedure looks like now with 482 deg F tempilstic. I'm still practicing on old brass. What you said about the lapua brass is very true. You'll ruin the case. And I also find that not all types of cases produce the same color.
http://youtu.be/uDwMSCaHWHw
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Thanks!
This is what my procedure looks like now with 482 deg F tempilstic. I'm still practicing on old brass. What you said about the lapua brass is very true. You'll ruin the case. And I also find that not all types of cases produce the same color.
http://youtu.be/uDwMSCaHWHw
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I don't even have to hang a watch from my hat to get weird looks from my wife. They just seem to go with years of marriage.
Enterprise Services has Video on You tube were they use a double troch set up. they also recommend the 650 degrees. they are out of Ft. Smith AR 479-629-5566 go check them out good info.
His system is around 100.00
His system is around 100.00
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Not me. I can set up my cordless drill with socket, a stainless steel bowl to catch the hot cases, and anneal up to 300 hundred pieces per hour. Best part is that I still have the $500 or so the machine's cost left in my wallet.
Not as fancy as having a machine but the results have proven to be more than adequate.
Whoever believes that Tempilaq will "last for a lifetime" is NOT CORRECT. According to the tech support guys at the company that makes the stuff, and I QUOTE: "Tempilaq and Tempilaq Advanced have a shelf life of 1 year from the date of shipment. " So, the "liefetime" thing MAY be true if your own life expectancy is very, very short! SO---They also told me this, as I kinda wondered about how the older stuff and the "ADVANCED" stuff compared: " Tempilaq has recently been discontinued and replaced by Tempilaq Advanced. Tempilaq may still be in stock at some of our distributors, but it is no longer being produced. The two products work in the same way. The main difference is that Tempilaq Advanced uses a different thinner than the original Tempilaq.
The only thing I wonder about in reference to that statement is "shipment date". That stuff COULD sit on the shelf in a distributor's warehouse or a retailers shelves/warehouse for who knows how long. Heck, I guess it is possible that it could be out of date when you receive it!! The bottle I have in my hand has NO PRODUCTION DATE on it, but does have a lot number if you care to pursue the date by calling or emailing the producer.
The only thing I wonder about in reference to that statement is "shipment date". That stuff COULD sit on the shelf in a distributor's warehouse or a retailers shelves/warehouse for who knows how long. Heck, I guess it is possible that it could be out of date when you receive it!! The bottle I have in my hand has NO PRODUCTION DATE on it, but does have a lot number if you care to pursue the date by calling or emailing the producer.
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I spoke to tempilaq support about this and it is very subjective. For example where you purchase from, can mean greatly varying times that it has sat on the shelf. I bought some that had been on the shelf for months.
Storage is also critical. I store mine upside down ( trick I learned from my woodworking days. Purported to make it harder for vapor leakage in or out) inside two ziplocks, inside a sealed glass (clean) peanut butter jar in a refrigerator. This greatly extends lifespan.
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