Anyone with experience with these have any input? I'm familiar with the Nightforce zerostop and controls but the March is tempting and about the same price.
Rifle Scopes Torn between the Atacr 7-35 and the March 5-40
- Thread starter Mclovinguns
- Start date
I've shot through many different scopes - March, Kahles, S&B, NF, TT, USO, and others. I ended up with an F1 ATACR 5-25 (2 now) and could not be more pleased. I would never say it's better but it certainly is one of the best and I've never found myself disappointed with the scope or it lacking anything. The 7-35 is a great scope too and the NF warranty is tops but I've never needed it. So, I guess I'm a NF fan now if your looking for an opinion but I don't think you'd ever have a regret with a NF.
I don't have the ATACR 7-35, but I do have the ATACR 5-25 great scope
Nightforce Warrenty= Lifetime
March Warrenty =5yrs
I don't need to a calculator to figure out the one I would go for.......lol
Nightforce Warrenty= Lifetime
March Warrenty =5yrs
I don't need to a calculator to figure out the one I would go for.......lol
Yeah that makes up my mind for me, thanks. How dies the Nightforce warranty work? I have seen a few new Atacr 7-35's new on ebay for for 2900 to 3000. I guess what Im asking is am I better off just buying from a dealer for the warranty to be valid?
The warranty on the Nightforce is transferable, but I would maybe consider waiting until the MIL-C reticle becomes available on the ATACR 7-35 or get the ATACR 5-25 with the MIL-C.
Ahhh the good old warranty debate. I have sent my various Nightforce scopes back on several occasions to be fixed. I have never needed to for any of my March scopes and they get used a lot harder. So warranty is less of an issue. Optical resolution is more important as is weight.
Have to agree with Hairy , after beating the hell out of several March scopes I'm impressed
with their durability . Being able to see impacts on steel at well over 2000 is impressive too !
with their durability . Being able to see impacts on steel at well over 2000 is impressive too !
I can't comment on the 5-25 & the 7-35 NF (though I do have a NF 4-16 and the March has slightly better glass compared to that) but the March 5-40 is a seriously great optic. Get behind one if you can - I never really got the point of high mag optics until I saw first hand what the March could do. Load development at 500m and easily spotting .22cal holes is special - the thing basically doubles as a spotting scope. I love the weight savings and the ultra intuitive zero stop. Really the only thing I'd like to see March do is offer a dedicated PRS style Reticle (thought the FML is totally serviceable) - there is nothing else I would change about the scope.
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Not trying to resuscitate the old warranty debate, but it is something to consider when buying high doller optics or anything for that matter.
OK.
From personal experience.
March makes warranty service and post-warranty service without problems, quickly, efficiently, reliably.
Nightforce Optics' ATACR 7-35x56 F1 - Mil-R in stock! Call 916.670.1103 for hide pricing.
https://www.cstactical.com/p/5524-Nightforce-ATACR-7-35x56-F1-Mil-R.aspx
https://www.cstactical.com/p/5524-Nightforce-ATACR-7-35x56-F1-Mil-R.aspx
Hold on I thought you didn't need warranty service with March scopes because they are bullet proof.....lol Well it's good to know if you do need it within the 5 year window that you will be well taken care of!
Isn't that the statement you wanted to hear? Despite better optics, lighter weight, and a rugged and ergonomic design that is qualitatively better than another product, your only argument is "told you so"?
What about seeing holes on paper at 1000 yards, watching better trace from 400 yards back, clear target definition in fog and high mirage?
Going back to the OP's questions...
Zero stop on the March is controlled by three gun screws that, when loosened, allow the elevation and windage knob to rotate freely - but not come off (i.e. you cannot lose these parts and three screws offer redundancy). The stop itself requires a flat balled screw driver or even a coin to turn an internal screw up or down until it hits your zero point. With this adjustment zero is both repeatable and solid.
The focus ring benefits from the extra diameter wheel to help with fine adjust. Also the added diameter helps in the prone position with less arm movement required.
The focus ring can also be adjusted to read mirage conditions between the shooter and the target, removing the need for an extra spotting scope.
Zero stop on the March is controlled by three gun screws that, when loosened, allow the elevation and windage knob to rotate freely - but not come off (i.e. you cannot lose these parts and three screws offer redundancy). The stop itself requires a flat balled screw driver or even a coin to turn an internal screw up or down until it hits your zero point. With this adjustment zero is both repeatable and solid.
The focus ring benefits from the extra diameter wheel to help with fine adjust. Also the added diameter helps in the prone position with less arm movement required.
The focus ring can also be adjusted to read mirage conditions between the shooter and the target, removing the need for an extra spotting scope.
It can cut through fog and mirage and see holes on paper at 1000yds..........Wow that is a pretty bold statement definitely worth the price of admission if it can to all that. I stand down OP roll the dice and go for it.......Good Luck!
Frank, interested in your thoughts on the March 5-40, especially now that you've run the S&B 5-45. No doubt the NF is a very good scope, but what is it specifically that you prefer about a NF 7-35 vs a March 5-40? Cheers, BP
I really like the NF 7-35 so far. Once the Mil-C reticle becomes available it will have even more appeal, more reticle options can only be a good thing right?
I'm not very familiar with the 5-40 March, What is the reticle thickness the 5-40? How much elevation adjustment does it have? and does it have 0.05mrad adjustments or 0.1?
I'm not very familiar with the 5-40 March, What is the reticle thickness the 5-40? How much elevation adjustment does it have? and does it have 0.05mrad adjustments or 0.1?
http://marchscopes.com/tactical-5-40-x-56-ffp.html
- 24 Mil Radian elevation adjustment. 12 Mil Radian of windage adjustment.
- Two versions of turret systems. One turn is 5 mil-rad with .05 mil-rad clicks. Other version is 10 mil-rad per turn and .1mil clicks
- Reticle thickness is 0.2 MIL with 0.05 MIL aim point (look on the web site)
I've owned a March 5-40 and regret selling it, it was a beautiful scope. Had a look through an NF ATACR 7-35 but haven't had it on top of a rifle. I preferred the mechanics of the March, and weight. Is weight a concern to you? Is illumination? I'm sure both will do what you want, try and find people in your local area who may have them on rifles and have a bo-peep.
The March 5-40 is a superior scope imho. Noticeably better glass and I prefer the rect, weight, size, and knobs/clicks. 10 yd parallax focus also is epic for air rifle shooting and practicing indoors. 10 mil knobs are perfect with 0.1 clicks.
The 5 yr warranty is a moot pt as its a "state law" in Japan that's max warranty they can officially offer. I have heard of only a handful of March's (3-24's coincidentally) going down and never heard of March not fixing them (at least one was over the 5yr mark) no matter how old, and there are a TON out there in the BR world.
I personally would try to look through both and I would prob pick the scope with the rect I liked better. But that glass in the March is literally on a different level.
Good luck,
DT
The 5 yr warranty is a moot pt as its a "state law" in Japan that's max warranty they can officially offer. I have heard of only a handful of March's (3-24's coincidentally) going down and never heard of March not fixing them (at least one was over the 5yr mark) no matter how old, and there are a TON out there in the BR world.
I personally would try to look through both and I would prob pick the scope with the rect I liked better. But that glass in the March is literally on a different level.
Good luck,
DT
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't warranty repairs have to be sent back to Japan for March? Yes you prefer not to use it but I think NF would be a quicker turn around.
Better to have it and not need it, than to not have it and say oh shit.....
Better to have it and not need it, than to not have it and say oh shit.....
I am curious as to the technology with March scopes that will let you see through "high mirage" and "fog" as one poster put it can anyone please enlighten me?
March is big in the F Class / Benchrest world but they are more of a compromise when it comes to their tactical offerings.
I don't think they addressed the fact they are using the wrong mils, 6400 instead of 6283. While it's minor, it's important when shooting at distance if you do not properly adjust for it. The reticles are a bit thicker because of the magnification range.
I get it people like the size as they are smaller, but what cracks me up is the raving about the glass. It's from the same place everyone else gets their glass. Other than NF moving to a bit more color pop, it's from Japan just like the majority of scopes out there. How people can complain about one and crow about the other is a bit odd.
I was more a fan of the guys at Kelby vs March themselves and even with a sweet heart deal, I returned my demo March Scopes as I saw no need to keep them. Even the one I paid for and kept is not being used and is more of a loaner scope than one I would actually use.
The idea they beat Mirage and Fog is awesome, I would like more information on that technology as I am sure their competition would be interested in how they pull this off too
I don't think they addressed the fact they are using the wrong mils, 6400 instead of 6283. While it's minor, it's important when shooting at distance if you do not properly adjust for it. The reticles are a bit thicker because of the magnification range.
I get it people like the size as they are smaller, but what cracks me up is the raving about the glass. It's from the same place everyone else gets their glass. Other than NF moving to a bit more color pop, it's from Japan just like the majority of scopes out there. How people can complain about one and crow about the other is a bit odd.
I was more a fan of the guys at Kelby vs March themselves and even with a sweet heart deal, I returned my demo March Scopes as I saw no need to keep them. Even the one I paid for and kept is not being used and is more of a loaner scope than one I would actually use.
The idea they beat Mirage and Fog is awesome, I would like more information on that technology as I am sure their competition would be interested in how they pull this off too
This. The Mil-C reticle is freaking awesome. I am just waiting for NF to start putting it in the 4-16 and I will get one.
Thanks for the overview. I do know that the newer (may be a year or more now) scopes are corrected to the industry standard 6283 mils, at least my 5-40 is. As to the glass there's no doubt that once you get to the NF ATACR/March level there's nothing optically that's going to make a practical difference to what one is able to see. That said I know nothing about where the glass comes from but I do know my March 5-40 has better glass than any NF I've ever seen, so something is 'different' there.
Get out on the firing line when the conditions change. I have and that is why I use March scopes. I gave up on Nightforce the day I shot the winning core at 700m on a 40 deg C day using 50 power. I could see the target (even at 60 power) and the NF guys were struggling at 20 power. Then shooting at 300m with a 40x FFP a sea fog rolled in - fantastic test to determine when the optics gave up on the line. I could still see the target clearly when everyone had tapped out. Must be voodoo? Or maybe engineering?
The 40x FFP is a great scope. Sounds like Frank had one of the first before they standardised to 6283 mils following Cal Zant's strange reviews. No doubt there will be a better scope from someone else into the future but for the while I'm sticking with my March. I think Frank needs to try another one in light of the passage of time.
The owner of Deon Optical set up March Scopes to make better quality products than those on
offer from Light Optic Works . Fumio Shimizu is a legend in the optical design world , having
actually designed many of the Nightforce scopes over the last 20 years . Obviously these
designs are covered by Non Disclosure Agreements , so not public knowledge - until now .
So all you Nightforce fans , you should be thanking Deon Optical / March !
There are are many glass suppliers in Japan , especially in the Nagano area . Some supply
lenses to satellite manufacturers , and March Scopes . Others supply generic glass to
LOW , and camera manufacturers : there is quite a significant difference in quality .
Comparing March to Nightforce is like comparing McLaren Cars to Chevrolet in terms of
production quantity . Furthermore , the internal designs , especially the eyepiece are totally
different designs l It is MUCH easier to design an optic that holds POI with a rotating
eyepiece ( ie: Nightforce ) , versus a rotating collar design as per March .
Some designers innovate , some just copy . As we speak , I suspect some opposition
optical design companies are pulling apart March's latest ' High Master ' design
to copy it .....
offer from Light Optic Works . Fumio Shimizu is a legend in the optical design world , having
actually designed many of the Nightforce scopes over the last 20 years . Obviously these
designs are covered by Non Disclosure Agreements , so not public knowledge - until now .
So all you Nightforce fans , you should be thanking Deon Optical / March !
There are are many glass suppliers in Japan , especially in the Nagano area . Some supply
lenses to satellite manufacturers , and March Scopes . Others supply generic glass to
LOW , and camera manufacturers : there is quite a significant difference in quality .
Comparing March to Nightforce is like comparing McLaren Cars to Chevrolet in terms of
production quantity . Furthermore , the internal designs , especially the eyepiece are totally
different designs l It is MUCH easier to design an optic that holds POI with a rotating
eyepiece ( ie: Nightforce ) , versus a rotating collar design as per March .
Some designers innovate , some just copy . As we speak , I suspect some opposition
optical design companies are pulling apart March's latest ' High Master ' design
to copy it .....
Here's three in a row from a 6.5 x 47 ( initials MT on 12 x 12 steel ) at 1500 . I had a March 5 -40
on the rifle for this shoot , and its staying with me ! Very easy to see impacts in detail at this distance
with the 5-40 March . The other guys with me on the day ( 338 Lap and 300 Win ) had less success ...
EDIT : not going to mention the brand of optic the other guys were using .....
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Just for the record.
I've checked with the distributor and he has confirmed to me that ALL 5-40 scopes have ALWAYS been 6283 MIL.
Additionally, ALL the 3-24x52 scopes have always been 6283 MIL.
The only scopes in 6400 were the first year of production of the 3-24 x 42mm model back in 2012. This one was the subject of the strange Zant results which have caused a lot of Internet BS to fly around.
I think it is time for Frank to reach out to Shiraz and ask for another test with the equipment we are talking about.
I've checked with the distributor and he has confirmed to me that ALL 5-40 scopes have ALWAYS been 6283 MIL.
Additionally, ALL the 3-24x52 scopes have always been 6283 MIL.
The only scopes in 6400 were the first year of production of the 3-24 x 42mm model back in 2012. This one was the subject of the strange Zant results which have caused a lot of Internet BS to fly around.
I think it is time for Frank to reach out to Shiraz and ask for another test with the equipment we are talking about.
March definitely. 3 mils less elevation travel and no "on paper" lifetime warranty. But March are so overwhelmingly proud of their quality and durability, they'll look after you. I know that seems like a hollow promise, but they will.
Its better in almost every conceivable way.
Its better in almost every conceivable way.
The eye box on March is picky, it's very tight because of the high magnification ratio. Which is why it works better with F Class and Benchrest, they don't move positions.
The design is not better than NF and the rotating ocular is actually there to make a course (gross) adjustment vs a fine adjustment. You can move it with gloves, in the cold, etc much easier than finding a ring. Reach up, grab the back and turn, you don't have to find it. That is a choice as NF has military contracts.
LOW Is LOW, sure you can spec better quality parts, but everyone is spec'ing better glass today. The fact Vortex, NF, March, and others use them doesn't make one coming out the same door substantially better. Why do you think Vortex replaces the internals here in the USA because LOW shares the designs. Plus NF changed their glass, just like March changed the mils adjustment. Older NF had a very bland look, they upgraded that.
March fanboys are funny though...
I would double check the 6283 number, seems odd that only "One" was that way, I believe they changed it "after" it was found out they were using the wrong value. I seem to recall talking to the Kelby;s about that.
No thanks on reviewing a March anymore, Shiraz and I have an issue, he can peddle that stuff elsewhere, he ranks up there with Scout/CBS in my book. Which is another strike against the brand in my opinion
The design is not better than NF and the rotating ocular is actually there to make a course (gross) adjustment vs a fine adjustment. You can move it with gloves, in the cold, etc much easier than finding a ring. Reach up, grab the back and turn, you don't have to find it. That is a choice as NF has military contracts.
LOW Is LOW, sure you can spec better quality parts, but everyone is spec'ing better glass today. The fact Vortex, NF, March, and others use them doesn't make one coming out the same door substantially better. Why do you think Vortex replaces the internals here in the USA because LOW shares the designs. Plus NF changed their glass, just like March changed the mils adjustment. Older NF had a very bland look, they upgraded that.
March fanboys are funny though...
I would double check the 6283 number, seems odd that only "One" was that way, I believe they changed it "after" it was found out they were using the wrong value. I seem to recall talking to the Kelby;s about that.
No thanks on reviewing a March anymore, Shiraz and I have an issue, he can peddle that stuff elsewhere, he ranks up there with Scout/CBS in my book. Which is another strike against the brand in my opinion
LL have you actually run a 5-40 , or just the old 3-24 ? The eye box on the 5-40 is very easy up to 30x ,
although obviously requires good fundamentals / position on 40x . The new Schmidt has a 9x zoom : no
issues for me with ' eye box ' on that scope either , how about you ? March 5-40 is 8x zoom .
NF are designed to be easier to assemble on a production line than some designs : this from the guy that
actually designed the scope . If you like I can introduce you to the designer at next years Shot Show .
Its a shame we didn't have time to talk more after the ELR meetings at Shot this year , where we met
briefly . Regarding operating with gloves on , there are these things called throw or zoom levers ...
Military contracts ? I doubt that March is remotely interested in chasing bulk orders , they are a small
high end company . SF over here however , are happy to be using them on their 50 cals . I appreciate
this is an American site , but there are very good operators all over the world . The Leupold Mk 4 is a
Mil contract scope and you couldn't give me one ..... Steiner , Premier ?
I will attempt to discover for you who makes March lenses , not LOW . There are many other glass
makers in Japan , making product we never see or hear about in the public domain .
Im an enthusiastic fan of designers , not brands . For example , Gordon Murray and Adrian Newey
of Formula One . No matter what ' brand ' name was on their race car , their designs were / are
often at the sharp end . As I said before , the head designer of March engineered most of the
Nightforce designs over the last 20 years .... I used to use Nightforce a lot , March is a step up
in quality so it's an upgrade for me . I also run Schmidt and Hensoldt optics .
The 5-40 I got loaned ( and don't want to give back ! ) box tested and tracks perfectly , likewise
tall target . No idea about Kelbly's , I'm in Australia . The distributor over here is a multiple world
champion , and excellent field shooter who I've seen drill targets over 2000 with casuall ease .
Just got heads up a few weeks ago that March have new reticles coming , designed by our SF guys
not target guys so that will be a welcome change . A new design or two as well it seems , possibly
with electrooptic interface and maybe even more mag for better target ID at big ELR distances .
Maybe down the track I will hook you up with a prototype direct from Deon in Japan .
We are seeing remarkable development in ELR at the moment , I just saw today that Bryan Litz
and Emil Praslick got a first round hit at 3613 yards during a DOPE check ! We are going to need
these new generation higher mag scopes to keep up,with the range of the new 375' s . Regardless
of the manufacturer of your optics , it's a great time to be shooting .
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You can buy March's in 1/6283 or 1/6400...or at least you could a couple years ago. The majority of scopes they sell are 1/6283. Early on from what I understand the 3-24x42 came 1/6400 but that changed soon after introduction. All of mine are 1/6283 which I would prefer but all of us shoot with ballistic programs and they all easily output data in either spec. The mil spec is an interesting study.....NATO, US Marine, artillery, Russian values vary a good bit 1/6283, 1/6400, 1/6000 etc. I have had very good experiences with the March's i own and I am tough on them. I would not hesitate to buy another but NF is also excellent. Just have to decide the best thing about either and choose your needs.
I don't think NF ever denied that Mr. Shizumi assisted in the design of the 8-32 and 12-42 power range NXS scopes. I've seen that on forums before over the years. I can tell you that he was not involved in the ATACR line, per one of their engineers present at SHOT. Those designs were done in house.
You are correct, Mr Shizumi is a talented optical engineer. March scopes accomplish some rather unique feats for their size and weight. They are impressive in many ways. I've shot behind many of them. I still prefer the Nightforce. I've been a long time user of them for work and personal use. They have my vote of confidence. I have a friend whom is a high ranking F-Class shooter. He ran March but now runs Nightforce. With that said, there are as many guys changing to March. Its all about preference and confidence in your equipment. They are obviously good scopes...I do not deny that.
I certainly prefer Nightforce. I enjoy my 4-16's and my 7-35. All of my previous NF's have never failed me whether stamped Made in Japan or Made in the USA.
So 2CDO and SASR are running March 5-40's on their 50's? Like purchased and as a program of record or T&E? Last time I talked to a few of their SOF guys, they were transitioning to Nightforce BEAST's and 4-16's with Tremor 3 reticles and were ecstatic with them.
You are correct, Mr Shizumi is a talented optical engineer. March scopes accomplish some rather unique feats for their size and weight. They are impressive in many ways. I've shot behind many of them. I still prefer the Nightforce. I've been a long time user of them for work and personal use. They have my vote of confidence. I have a friend whom is a high ranking F-Class shooter. He ran March but now runs Nightforce. With that said, there are as many guys changing to March. Its all about preference and confidence in your equipment. They are obviously good scopes...I do not deny that.
I certainly prefer Nightforce. I enjoy my 4-16's and my 7-35. All of my previous NF's have never failed me whether stamped Made in Japan or Made in the USA.
So 2CDO and SASR are running March 5-40's on their 50's? Like purchased and as a program of record or T&E? Last time I talked to a few of their SOF guys, they were transitioning to Nightforce BEAST's and 4-16's with Tremor 3 reticles and were ecstatic with them.
I had a 8-80 March, NF Comp, and Vortex Golden Eagle at the range. The March was clearer and brighter on 80x than the other 2 on their max powers of 52 and 60. I could still shoot the 800 yard target with the march at 8pm which was 30 minutes after I put the other 2 up because they were so dark. All 3 scopes are made by LOW.
I have a question to the overall ruggedness of March vs NF. Honest question here because I know the glass in March is great, but I also know the NF reputation for durability. It's one thing to put your scope through abuse on a range or competition, but NF scopes are constantly being put through their paces in military and LE environments. I mean I'm sure most of us have seen the picture of the NF with a bullet hole through it. Not saying NF is the end all be all of durability, but I've never really seen March's durability touted the way NF is.
What we have here is the classic perception versus reality statements repeated so often on the Internet that they become "fact". Well they are not fact and the growing number of March owners out there are now quite prepared to stand up and call BS on the this stuff.
Eyebox, that invention of Leupold created to excuse their failings in the 1990s, is not an issue if you set up your scope correctly. If you are a Bubba with four thumbs and a hammer go to another brand.
Ruggedness, congratulations on failing to observe another marketing exercise. Of course that scope continued to operate because the bullet went through space and did not hit anything important. I have seen a March scope that survived being cooked in a house fire. The owner tried to clean the lenses instead of letting the factory do it, it works perfectly otherwise.
March has been deployed to theatres of war as private purchase. NF wins because it has a massive marketing arm that can over power any opposition. March is not the same kind of company and lacks the advertising budget. But once again, advertising is designed to change your opinion to support a brand.
The MIL mass-debate. Firstly, it doesn't matter which type of MIL you use as long as you know. However, NO MARCH SCOPE has used 6400 since 2012. This is 2017 according to my calendar - time to move on guys!
And Frank, the is more than a squabble with Shiraz. This is about accuracy - both in product performance and target shooting. You guys shoot for MOA but the rest of the world is chasing X rings and V bulls. The internet is a global audience.
And finally, March owners are fan boys and justifiably proud.
Eyebox, that invention of Leupold created to excuse their failings in the 1990s, is not an issue if you set up your scope correctly. If you are a Bubba with four thumbs and a hammer go to another brand.
Ruggedness, congratulations on failing to observe another marketing exercise. Of course that scope continued to operate because the bullet went through space and did not hit anything important. I have seen a March scope that survived being cooked in a house fire. The owner tried to clean the lenses instead of letting the factory do it, it works perfectly otherwise.
March has been deployed to theatres of war as private purchase. NF wins because it has a massive marketing arm that can over power any opposition. March is not the same kind of company and lacks the advertising budget. But once again, advertising is designed to change your opinion to support a brand.
The MIL mass-debate. Firstly, it doesn't matter which type of MIL you use as long as you know. However, NO MARCH SCOPE has used 6400 since 2012. This is 2017 according to my calendar - time to move on guys!
And Frank, the is more than a squabble with Shiraz. This is about accuracy - both in product performance and target shooting. You guys shoot for MOA but the rest of the world is chasing X rings and V bulls. The internet is a global audience.
And finally, March owners are fan boys and justifiably proud.
Here's an 8-80 on a rifle with five barrels under its belt . Hard to see from
the photo ( site will not allow a hi res upload ) , but there is damage on the
turrets from several drops and falls . Zero has remained perfect after many
misadventures .
March scopes are built by Deon optical , not Light Optic Works ....
the photo ( site will not allow a hi res upload ) , but there is damage on the
turrets from several drops and falls . Zero has remained perfect after many
misadventures .
March scopes are built by Deon optical , not Light Optic Works ....
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Most March scopes have a minimum of 4 mm scope tube walls , instead of 2 or 3 mm like
many other manufacturers . Short of throwing one off a cliff or driving over one with your
truck on a hard surface , you are unlikely to hurt them .
That NF with the round through the tube , was actually designed by March's lead designer :
that should tell you all you need to know about their durability ....
