Gotta come in with a price below the Minox with the Mr4 reticle or what's the point in offering it.
Rifle Scopes Z Comp Optics, heard of them? SHOT Booth N451!
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I've been planning an AMG, Kahles, or S&B this summer for my competition rifle. If that 4-20 is somehow at 2000-2500$ though i'm jumping on it.
Been watching this. Would love to know prices and if they offer an Mil/LE/First Responder program.
I agree with you in regard to the ZC527 5-27x56 vs the Minox ZP5 5-25x56; however, this is not the case with the ZC420, that is a class of scope (ultra short design) that Minox has no viable option for.
Why would they offer it at a lower price? People are already paying $3000+ on similar scopes. I think "zero compromise" means they are not too worried about price point. They would be smart to charge the same, or just a touch more. That's how the economy of retail works. I am excited to see them, and will withhold judgement on them until they are being used and abused in matches. They look promising.
Ultimately they will cost what the cost. If they are good, people will pay for it.
Ultimately they will cost what the cost. If they are good, people will pay for it.
Obviously they will cost what they cost; however, if they are good, it does not mean people will pay for it for a number of factors, first of which they are a brand new unproven company. Tangent Theta is good and some people do pay for it, but at $4400 for their 5-25 there are many people who have chosen to pay for another brand not wanting (or able to afford) the high cost of entry for TT. It comes down to the law of diminishing returns I would think. Let's say out of every 10 people only 1 can afford $5,000, but all ten of them would be willing to pay $2,500. You build a premium scope and the cost to the shelf is $2,000, so if you sell 1,000 scopes at $5,000 a piece, or sell 10,000 scopes at $2,500 a piece then which is the better return for the company? At the $5,000 premium the company earns $3,000,000 off sales; however, at $2,500 the company earns $5,000,000, obviously there is risk in not knowing how many you will sell at any given price, but by and large more people will purchase at the lower price point. The margins of the $5,000 price are much better than the $2,500 price; however, who cares about margins if you can't sell your product because you've priced it largely out the range of the target audience. Tangent Theta has shown an unwillingness (or inability) to create a new reticle for their scopes, if ZCO can match TT in IQ and mechanical reliability along with the refined turret feel then they probably can sell at TT prices, but they are not going to turn the market until they can prove they are just as good as TT; however, if they can match TT and they offer their scopes for less than TT and more along the lines of Schmidt & Bender then they very well could turn a lot of heads. I am certain that the folks at ZCO have done their homework and know exactly how their scopes stack up to the competition and if they can undercut the competition while still maintaining profitable margins for the company then they are going to get a lot of sales; however, if they overprice their scopes and you can get better for less from established manufacturers then why would people switch? Good sales and marketing only get you so far, but sooner or later people will realize what the product really is, and if the product has issues social media and forums like this will bring that to light.
I absolutely want to give ZCO the benefit of the doubt and hope their scopes are second to none but I also hope they are able to sell at a price that is within reason. The sweet spot for the alpha class 5-25's and Ultra Shorts seem to be in the $2,000 - $3,000 range, if ZCO can be at the low end of this range and offer better IQ and mechanics than most then they could rock the industry like Vortex and others have in recent years.
Agreed with @wjm308. For me, ABSOLUTE tops would be $3000, and that's about $750-1000 more than I really would like to be spending right now. If their claims all stack up, I'd be willing to wait a bit longer and sacrifice in other areas to accrue the necessary funds for a be-all, end-all precision rifle optic.
But I'll admit that I have absolutely no interest in TT optics, or any others in their price range. I'm sure they're earth shattering in many ways, but $4,500 is nice used car territory, and I can't justify that when for half of that cost (or less) I can swing something like an AMG, used S&B, or Razor GII, all proven optics that will more than get the job done for years to come.
I'm exceptionally interested. But if they're more than $2,500 street, it'll be a tough call for me. More than $3,000 and I'm very likely to pass for now, possibly considering them down the road for another build when I've built my skills and can justify funds on gear rather than ammo and training.
But I'll admit that I have absolutely no interest in TT optics, or any others in their price range. I'm sure they're earth shattering in many ways, but $4,500 is nice used car territory, and I can't justify that when for half of that cost (or less) I can swing something like an AMG, used S&B, or Razor GII, all proven optics that will more than get the job done for years to come.
I'm exceptionally interested. But if they're more than $2,500 street, it'll be a tough call for me. More than $3,000 and I'm very likely to pass for now, possibly considering them down the road for another build when I've built my skills and can justify funds on gear rather than ammo and training.
Can I have your job Mike? I'd love to sell good scopes for a living, or even half a livingExtremely interested with meeting up with them
Margins are everything, and they are very tight in this business.
Lets all take a breath and wait for the product, the price and the performance to be determined.
My appologies for taking so long to get back to you guys. Spent some family time Sunday and have been traveling all day today down here to Vegas. Regarding timeline, we are currently anticipating early second quarter of this year to ship out to dealers. We are very close to final design, but a couple minor adjustments we want to make yet. This is also a part of whay we are not yet releasing a price. If there needs to be a significant change to meet our specs, that would affect pricing one way or another.
We are really looking forward to SHOT this year. We've been working tirelessly this entire year on these two designs, making sure we have all the features members of this board want in a full featured scope. We are here to compete with the best optics in the world, and I think you guys will be extremely pleased with the end product.
I really hate to keep saying this, but please be patient. We won't rush this to market. It'll be as perfect as can be when we roll into production model scopes. We are confident enough in our pre-production models that we can now finally show them at SHOT, there are only a couple very minor details we are still adjusting to get it right. SHOT attendees will tell their tale here I'm sure, and I hope they do.
We are really looking forward to SHOT this year. We've been working tirelessly this entire year on these two designs, making sure we have all the features members of this board want in a full featured scope. We are here to compete with the best optics in the world, and I think you guys will be extremely pleased with the end product.
I really hate to keep saying this, but please be patient. We won't rush this to market. It'll be as perfect as can be when we roll into production model scopes. We are confident enough in our pre-production models that we can now finally show them at SHOT, there are only a couple very minor details we are still adjusting to get it right. SHOT attendees will tell their tale here I'm sure, and I hope they do.
I’m with you, but what kind of nice used car costs $4500? My last one was nearly a two digit factor more than that. That’s not a brag, I splurged and made a very long term purchase that has precluded me from accomplishing other things, sadly.
Well, when you've driven $2000 beaters, or older motorcycles (my newest is an '03 FZ1, still carbureted) your whole life, a $4500 car seems like a pretty big jump up the ladder, haha.
Yep. I could have had nicer vehicles for sure, but I've avoided payments and been able to dabble in other stuff as a result.
The wife's car is nice, but a decade old this year. And with a recent career change, a car is a better/safer option than a bike, so I'll need to plan for a reliable car purchase soon. Hence my limit on optics. These ZCO scopes tick all the right boxes, but others do almost as well. Tough call. Gotta juggle all the baskets and still make it all work out!
Are you anticipating shipping this scope internationally? Only reason I ask is that I'm in Australia and it can be a pain to buy some products here, and ITAR laws screw the US retailers from shipping internationally on so many things.
I'd be interested to see where you are finding alpha class ultra shorts for under $3000. The answer is that you are not and its just wishful thinking so that it fits into your budget. TT, despite all their "issues" sold for $4000 plus out of the chute and it was a new company
What issues did/does TT have? Not trying to pick a fight, genuinely wondering what you're referring to.
Lol! Bad wording on my part, though in my defense, I did use quotations around the word. I was referring to the regular references that people in this thread and others have made regarding TT and their impression that TT isn't listening to shooters and offering a different (better?) reticle. I am not attempting to start any rumors here. I was posting from my phone and probably should have taken the time to be clearer.
My post was really an attempt to bring some sense into this whole guess the price game and the attempts to try and reference less than "alpha" level optics when doing so. On one hand, they are excited that this optic appears to be ready to offer everything that a S&B US offers and more, with arguably a better reticle. On the other hand, they think that it should be priced like a legacy S&B 5-25 or a Vortex GII. Inside I'm laughing. Outside, I am trying to be respectful.
My post was really an attempt to bring some sense into this whole guess the price game and the attempts to try and reference less than "alpha" level optics when doing so. On one hand, they are excited that this optic appears to be ready to offer everything that a S&B US offers and more, with arguably a better reticle. On the other hand, they think that it should be priced like a legacy S&B 5-25 or a Vortex GII. Inside I'm laughing. Outside, I am trying to be respectful.
Fair enough. But a man can dream, no?
As mentioned, the price will be what it is, and if they live up to the hype, I'm sure they'll be worth it. It'll just be another optic I won't get my hands on until it's old and worn. I won't cry about it, I'll just have to work with what I can afford now and start saving my pennies if I really want one.But hey, still an exciting time to be involved in the precision game, no? Optics companies listening and directly applying feedback to their products, custom actions packed with features that are coming down in price, etc. We're in the golden years of precision shooting!
Based on the discounts offered, this is patently false. The margins are HUGE. Especially the high end.
Of course! I'm right there dreaming with you and the options available to the precision shooter these days are incredible. Even when compared to just five years ago.Fair enough. But a man can dream, no?
But hey, still an exciting time to be involved in the precision game, no? Optics companies listening and directly applying feedback to their products, custom actions packed with features that are coming down in price, etc. We're in the golden years of precision shooting!
Hey lash, I am guessing it was my post you're referring to where I wrote "The sweet spot for the alpha class 5-25's and Ultra Shorts seem to be in the $2,000 - $3,000 range, if ZCO can be at the low end of this range and offer better IQ and mechanics than most then they could rock the industry like Vortex and others have in recent years."
I should have been more clear with my statement. When I say "sweet spot" I am talking about a price range that is within reason and something that a lot of shooters are opting for when they move out of the lower class scopes. I wasn't necessarily saying that is the actual cost of these scopes, but I realize I did not make that clear. I also don't classify "alpha" as a specific price or range, I think of alpha as a scope that represents best in class performance compared to other scopes of similar design. I fully understand that on forums we can argue til the cows come home about the merits of each different scope and the nuances of it's design, and many times decisions come down to brand loyalty or personal preference more than hard facts.
That being said, allow me to present some interesting information about what I consider alpha class 5-25's:
- Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.5-27x56 (under $2500)
- Nightforce ATACR F1 5-25x56 (under $3000)
- Kahles K624i 6-24x56 (under $3000)
- Schmidt & Bender 5-25x56 (under $3000)
- Minox ZP5 5-25x56 (under $3000)
- Vortex AMG 6-24x50 (under $2500)
I remember when Premier went under, but then Tangent Theta came onto the scene picking up where Premier left off and everybody was excited; however, when TT announced their prices it was a bit of a shock for most. If memory serves the Premier 5-25x56 was listed at just over $3000, but when TT announced their repackaged version of the Premier 5-25 it came in at a cool $1000 more than the Premier. It is my understanding that TT did not change the optical formula or maybe slightly for parallax , they changed tube design a bit and most likely changed multi-coatings and definitely changed the turrets, but using the same optical formula and same reticle designs as the Premier. Did the multicoatings and turrets justify a $1000 price premium? Some said yes and others said no. Then Minox hired the Optronika group to run their ZP5 scopes and once again we have a Premier clone, using the same optical formula with different multicoatings, newer reticles and different turrets; however, the Minox ZP5 is $1500 less than the TT.
In 2016 Vortex introduced the AMG, completely custom built from the ground up in the USA using all USA sourced materials, granted it is a 4x design but many thought Vortex would charge a lot more, when new you could pick up an AMG from a reputable dealer for about $2500 and now they are going for less.
Then we get into the Ultra Shorts, this one is a little harder because there are so few scopes with this design. Definitely S&B represents "alpha" but I would also classify March as well. The Leupold Mark 6 3-18x44 is a strange one and has some documented issues and then the newcomer last year was Sig Tango 6 with their two ultra short designs the 3-18 and 4-24 which might just sneak in at the lower end of alpha class.
- Schmidt & Bender Ultra Short 5-20 ($3650)
- Schmidt & Bender Ultra Short 3-20 ($3850)
- March 3-24x52 ($3124)
- Sig Tango 6 3-18x44 ($2100)
- Sig Tango 6 4-24x50 ($2300)
Apparently I write way too much as the site would not let me post my full response so I have to split it in two, please see my next post for the continuation of my response...
Now, finally back to the subject of ZCO. Similar to Tangent Theta a few years ago, they are a newcomer to the high end rifle scope market; however, Tangent Theta took over for a very established alpha class scope maker (Premier) and already had that going for them, ZCO does not have that, these are brand new scopes with brand new designs. Sure, Jeff Huber is known in our community and certainly brings credibility to ZCO, but I'd venture to say that if you asked most Nightforce and probably even Kahles owners they wouldn't recognize his name. As a newcomer I would think it would be pretty hard to enter such a competitive market, and not only that but Kahles, EOTech and Leupold have all introduced new ultra short designs this year offering up even more competition from established names within the industry. At this point we really know nothing about how "good" ZCO scopes are... are they Tangent Theta good, are they Schmidt good are they Kahles good? Regardless of whether its right or wrong, the simple fact is that we judge scopes based on our experience with other scopes. So if I own and use a S&B and then I decide to purchase and use a Vortex Razor Gen II and my experience is that the Vortex glass is close enough to Schmidt, the reticles are better and the mechanics are at least on par then I'm going to post a review and say that the Vortex is a better scope than Schmidt, but that is only my opinion based on my experience; however, if a number of other shooters post a similar experience you begin to pick up a pattern and like it or not these reviews and opinions have influence over other shooters who might be in the market for purchasing a new scope. Here's the thing, I have never owned a Vortex Razor Gen II because I prefer lighter weight scopes on my rigs; however, it has been clear that the Vortex has supplanted the S&B 5-25 on many shooters rifles. Is it because the Vortex is better optically or that they offer better reticles or better turrets, etc. not necessarily; however, there is one glaring difference between the two and that is the fact that the Vortex was able to do all they did and sell this scope at a much lower price point than the S&B, and I think a lot of people take that into consideration. This is the challenge that ZCO faces, they may very well make a scope that exceeds S&B in every way, but if priced at TT levels how many will actually buy them?
Taking a look at the two scopes ZCO is offering, the ZC527 is interesting but not "exciting" for me and here's why, in regard to mag range it most closely matches the Razor Gen II 4.5-27x56 which can be had for a little over $2000, but let's say that ZCO does have as good of glass and mechanics as TT so they price it at the TT level, how many shooters will still choose the Vortex, I assume quite a bit more based on "affordability" alone. But take the same TT level scope and price it at the Schmidt, Minox ZP5, Kahles and Nightforce level ($3000 with a street price a few hundred less), now how many will purchase it and possibly even consider paying a few hundred more than the Vortex? I think quite a few would make that decision. Spec wise the ZC527 is not much different than all the above scopes and with a 36mm tube it makes it harder for someone who is considering swapping out an existing scope with the much more common 34mm tube. Maybe ZCO will start out by including ARC 36mm rings when they first start selling their scopes, that might be a nice incentive as well.
The ZCO ZC420 is much more interesting for me as this is, in fact, an Ultra Short design; this is a niche market and hasn't had much competition (except for the past year and even more so in 2018). I love the 4-20 range especially with the wide FOV they were able to achieve with their design, in fact, the ZC420 is able to get a better FOV at 4x than the new Kahles K318i does at 3.5x while also offering a higher top magnification, but lets say the ZC420 has an MSRP/MAP of $4000 and the Kahles at $3200 and the S&B US 3-20 is at $3850, personally I think that is too much competition as the Schmidt has better specs, the Kahles has close enough specs and they both cost less, but if ZCO comes in at a price point of $3000 with street a few hundred less, that changes everything because now they are cheaper than the Schmidt a bit less than Kahles while offering an amazing/potentially better scope.
Obviously this is all entirely speculation and I'm assuming the folks at ZCO are much more knowledgeable than I within the industry and have done better homework, but I think my simple analysis above is valid. A few years ago it appeared the industry was just going to keep going up with astronomical prices for the top tier scopes and I think that is why TT felt justified in their pricing, but I have also seen much more competition enter the market over the past few years and with Schmidt dropping all their prices, I believe that supports a trend that shooters aren't willing to continue to pay more and more for premier optics, thus why I say that I think the "sweet spot" for alpha class scopes is $2000 - $3000.
Taking a look at the two scopes ZCO is offering, the ZC527 is interesting but not "exciting" for me and here's why, in regard to mag range it most closely matches the Razor Gen II 4.5-27x56 which can be had for a little over $2000, but let's say that ZCO does have as good of glass and mechanics as TT so they price it at the TT level, how many shooters will still choose the Vortex, I assume quite a bit more based on "affordability" alone. But take the same TT level scope and price it at the Schmidt, Minox ZP5, Kahles and Nightforce level ($3000 with a street price a few hundred less), now how many will purchase it and possibly even consider paying a few hundred more than the Vortex? I think quite a few would make that decision. Spec wise the ZC527 is not much different than all the above scopes and with a 36mm tube it makes it harder for someone who is considering swapping out an existing scope with the much more common 34mm tube. Maybe ZCO will start out by including ARC 36mm rings when they first start selling their scopes, that might be a nice incentive as well.
The ZCO ZC420 is much more interesting for me as this is, in fact, an Ultra Short design; this is a niche market and hasn't had much competition (except for the past year and even more so in 2018). I love the 4-20 range especially with the wide FOV they were able to achieve with their design, in fact, the ZC420 is able to get a better FOV at 4x than the new Kahles K318i does at 3.5x while also offering a higher top magnification, but lets say the ZC420 has an MSRP/MAP of $4000 and the Kahles at $3200 and the S&B US 3-20 is at $3850, personally I think that is too much competition as the Schmidt has better specs, the Kahles has close enough specs and they both cost less, but if ZCO comes in at a price point of $3000 with street a few hundred less, that changes everything because now they are cheaper than the Schmidt a bit less than Kahles while offering an amazing/potentially better scope.
Obviously this is all entirely speculation and I'm assuming the folks at ZCO are much more knowledgeable than I within the industry and have done better homework, but I think my simple analysis above is valid. A few years ago it appeared the industry was just going to keep going up with astronomical prices for the top tier scopes and I think that is why TT felt justified in their pricing, but I have also seen much more competition enter the market over the past few years and with Schmidt dropping all their prices, I believe that supports a trend that shooters aren't willing to continue to pay more and more for premier optics, thus why I say that I think the "sweet spot" for alpha class scopes is $2000 - $3000.
Thank you Frank. What's the pic of Michael at FIMS Manufacturing have to do with ZCO, is that a through the scope image? Dang! Hard to tell on the showroom floor I'm sure, but curious what you think. Also love the last bullet-point in their chart "Well proportioned and good looking rifle scope built for extreme duty!" that is quite a subjective statement as beauty (and proportions) are in the eye of the beholder
Not sure if this will work for those who don't do facetoobs.
I have to say, I'm pretty happy with my scopes, 2 Optronika/Minox 5-25s and an Athlon Cronus 4.5-29 I picked up on closeout for $1060 shipped, I don't have any need for another high power variable, but these ZCO optics are causing a stirring in my loins.
Not sure what facetoobs is but assuming it has something to do with facebook and considering I'm not a social media guy yes, this worked for me, I was able to watch. Locking turrets just like my AMG and Schmidt, pull up to spin and push down to lock, love it! Best of all Nick mentions "Ballpark price, we are NOT going to be in the 4000 mark, we're going to be in the less than 4000, most likely quite a bit less than 4000" of course we are all hoping for the latter, but either way they are basically confirming they will not be at Tangent Theta pricing, sounds like more in line with Schmidt pricing which I think will make them pretty competitive. Nick goes on to say that they just can't make that scope at the $2000 price point and given the specs I completely get that, the use of precision engineering from Austria, Schott glass from Germany and hand assembled in the USA means these can't be sold at the same price as Steiner T5Xi's or Vortex Gen II's, but it does sound like pricing may be close to the Minox ZP5, Nightforce ATACR F1, Kahles K624i and S&B 5-25 which is where I expected these to come in at, so this is great news.
Nightvision and daytime bright setting... check. Automated Illumination Management (AIM) turns off illumination with different degrees (up, down or 45 degrees to the left or right) will turn it off, after three minutes of no movement it turns off but will wake once it senses movement, after 2 hours it shuts off completely? not sure what he meant by will wake again as that is already covered by the 3 minute turn off... big check!
Sorry, just referring to the gamut of social media. Anyhow, as I understood after 2 hours it will not sense movement to turn back on. Rather it will take a turn of the illumination knob to again activate illumination functions.
My thought too Taz, that after 2 hours it will shut off completely is what he meant. Nice set of features and if glass and mechanics can match Schmidt these will definitely turn some heads. Like Scudzuki said above, I already have a Minox ZP5 and an AMG on my two main rigs and I don't see the ZC527 supplanting those; however, I am hoping to build a new large frame AR and the ZC420 would be a beautiful addition to that rig...
Dangit, Frank! After seeing the video above, I thought I'd made up my mind to go for an AMG short-term and save for a ZCO for down the road, but now you have me second guessing myself! My bank account is starting to look for places to hide...
The three most important words. Back in 2014 you interviewed Andrew Weber and felt similar to what Tangent Theta had introduced, do you get the same sense with ZCO you got with TT 4 years ago?
Out of curiosity Basher, which ZCO are you most interested in? You mention wanting the AMG and one of the biggest advantages of the AMG is its weight savings vs. other 5-25 alpha class scopes. I have an AMG and a Minox ZP5 5-25x56 on my main rifles but don't think I would swap out the AMG as it sits on my lightweight SAC 6.5CM build and remains my goto rifle for long treks in the wilderness. I am so impressed with the Minox ZP5 that it would be very difficult for me to part with that scope; however, I am very curious how the ZC527 will stack up side by side. I am also very curious about the ZC420 and may consider that a replacement for the Minox as well, but would rather purchase for another rifle build as the Minox is the most amazing scope I've used so far and reigns as the low light gathering king among the plethora of scopes I've used over the past few years.
I asked Jeff Huber about estimated cost and he's estimating that the 4-20x will probably come in around $3200 and the 5-25x will come in around $3500. Initial impressions are good. The optics is about what you'd expect at this level. Controls are clean and easy to see and access. Turrets have nice feel. Solid and distinct. No mushiness. Jeff believes that they'll make some more changes to the controls for the illumination, parallax and diopter lock. I'm looking forward to seeing these when they hit production. The samples at SHOT are prototypes so there will be changes.
