Can my 5700 Elite calculate a firing solution for a rifle that is canted 90 degrees left or right?
Thanks,
Bang
Thanks,
Bang
Kestrel cant function?
- Thread starter BANG...ping
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No. But in that case the windage is now your drop stadia and the elevation becomes the windage. So in essence there is no cant if it is perfectly at 90 degrees.
AFAIK only CB accounts for cant. Two modes POI and Fire Solution. And for the record I've seen many pics of military snipers shooting sideways.
I've seen an offset red dot for point blank, but I've never seen a distance scope offset where you would need a solver...
in order for a solver to even get remotely close, you need the exact cant angle which you dont have.then you have to tell it left or right. and then it can try but i dont think anyone knows the exact value of the impact change to create a firing solution. best practice, dont cant the rifle. but like i said earlier, a 90 degree cant equals no cant. only change is your x axis is now drop and the y is elevation (same with turrets)
The reason I need a cant solver is because at a Guardian match at the Marksmanship Training Center in Michigan last summer there was a stage where shooters were required to cant the rifle 90 degrees (there is a video out there, google it). I got two of three hits but only because somebody else gave me their DOPE. Match directors Gary Larson and Tim Nolan go through great lengths to create stages that test skills and are fun. This was a good example. For those of you who do not know, canting the rifle 90 degrees to the left will cause your round to impact low and left, and canting 90 degrees right will cause an impact low and right - providing you did not dial anything. And thanks to the fellow competitor who gave me his DOPE. I was shooting really well and him giving me his DOPE probably did not help his standing ( he knew I was having a good day). I am kind of scratching my head that some think this is a stupid question. If you do not see the need for this skill you are probably not as good with a rifle as you think you are and should not provide a uninformed response.
Thanks to all,
Bang
Thanks to all,
Bang
If the shot is at a given 100 yards for example one can shoot to create dope solution.
AFAIK I haven't heard of a ballistic solver than can account for this shot.
R
At 100 yes, but precision rifle matches are usually farther. The stage I shot was in the 300 yard range ( cant remember exact distance). I am doing two more Guardian matches in the next two months and am trying to be prepared if they have a similar stage.
My range only goes to 200 yards. The closest range out to 1000 is 4 hours away and only open a few days a month. And that range is anti muzzle brake.
The DOPE is not the same. Yes, your windage knob becomes your elevation adjustment and you would dial it as you would normally dial your elevation DOPE for the distance ( if you cant 90 degrees). But because your bore and scope are not parallel, if you cant left your bullet will go left. Think about it. If you cant only 3 degrees is your DOPE the same?
Bang
Bang
That's true your aspect changes, but if your zero is at a hundred with a 2700-3100FPS cartridge it's going to be offset in the 1.5" range. I don't think he meant that it was exactly the same, but that the trajectory of the bullet would be unchanged by the cant. Hopefully you have a reticle that's got enough windage to hold over on that stage.
It is more than 1.5.” The farther you go, the more it will be because scope and bore are not parallel. I am trying to remember but I think I held 1.5 Mils right for a 90 degree left cant at ~ 300. If someone can chime in with some DOPE that would be great.
Bang
Bang
So assuming your zero was absolutely perfect and I mean perfect dead center of a target and you rotate 90degrees left. Your height over bore is zero and your scope offset is your height over bore right? In this example from AB Mobile I would have to to do 1 of 2 things. Either I create a new profile where I put sight height to zero and sight offset to 2.5 or when I rotate the rifle I dial out the 2.5 inches on my windage (which is the elevation turret) to bring that back to center. If my original zero was absolutely perfect I don’t need to do anything with the windage to make my elevation perfect again. After that your holds should be no different right? I just have to account for that extra 2.5 inches of offset whether it’s left or right. If your zero wasn’t absolutely perfect now you have to account for both. But yes the bore and reticle are absolutely parallel you just have to change which value is offset or dial it out and hold.
Make sense? Or am I completely nuts? Your compensating for sight offset instead of sight height is all.
Make sense? Or am I completely nuts? Your compensating for sight offset instead of sight height is all.
Try the Fire Solution mode in CB, as I understand your request, this is what you are looking for.
If you cant the rifle 90 degrees in either direction you cannot dial out the offset because the zero stop will not let you turn the elevation turret the way it needs to go wi
If you cant the rifle 90 degrees in either direction you cannot dial out the offset because the zero stop will prevent you from turning the elevation knob the way you need to. As a result, the bore and point of aim can never be parallel because of your 100 yard zero.
Tactical D,
If you cant the rifle 90 degrees in either direction the zero stop will prevent you from turning the elevation knob the way it needs to go if you want to dial out offset. The purpose of the zero stop is to preserve an angle between the bore and line of sight. As a result, with a 100 yard zero the bore and line of sight can never be parallel and the windage impact will always move the way you cant the rifle. This is why you need to use the reticle elevation subs above the center crosshair to hold for windage, but can still use the windage knob to dial elevation. If someone sees this differently please chime in.
Bang
If you cant the rifle 90 degrees in either direction the zero stop will prevent you from turning the elevation knob the way it needs to go if you want to dial out offset. The purpose of the zero stop is to preserve an angle between the bore and line of sight. As a result, with a 100 yard zero the bore and line of sight can never be parallel and the windage impact will always move the way you cant the rifle. This is why you need to use the reticle elevation subs above the center crosshair to hold for windage, but can still use the windage knob to dial elevation. If someone sees this differently please chime in.
Bang
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Ok. One more piece of info there. If you have a zero stop and again assuming the perfect zero, if you have 90 degree left can’t your zero would be off the equivalent of the offset (or what is normally your sight height) right? Can’t you just hold for wind when you have to hold right? If you held R the equivalent of that offset theoretically your zero should be good I think. Dial L and hold Right. But again, your dope is the same as long as you account for that wind offset when wind is right to left. You can build yourself a dope card with a ballistic calc. You actually have to build 2 dope cards. 1 for a right wind and one for left wind. Just change the sight to 0 and offset to your sight height and run the numbers. It will account for that offset for a right wind and for a left wind the offset is 0 because you can actually dial that out
Right, but he's saying (correctly) that if the angle of the height of the scope intersects the perfect zero POI @ 100yds that angle is going to increase with range so you have to know where on the parabolic trajectory that intersection actually is before you can calculate the shift.
To me that's overthinking it and demanding ridiculous precision for a single stage.
Take your solver and reduce the range increment to 5yds so you can visually see the parabola. With my 6x47L, scope height 1.35", running a 105gr @ 3100fps I am at +.01 from 75yds to 95 yds, zero @ 100yds, and then dropping about .01 every five yards beyond that to 130yds. So, for a 100 yd zero the flat spot (top of the parabola) is from 70 yds to 105 yds. That is so flat for a third of the 100yd trajectory (my zero is right at the end of the top of the parabola) it seems silly to try and calculate that tiny angle. Unless you're shooting beyond 600 yds @ 90 deg cant, you ought to be able to just assume scope height on either side and add a 1/10 mil for every hundred yards and be ABOUT there, because the angle is truly tiny, and if the bullet is dropping 90deg to that it may require a finer than 1/10 mil adjustment. Trying to plot that stage perfectly isn't going to be done with a solver, but with a mapping algorithmic program that will plot the cosine of the parabola of the bullet with respect to that tiny angle between the scope height and zero at 100 yds. That kind of think may interest Bryan Litz, but if you're just interested in a hit go to the range, shoot that way, and gather the dope for your rifle. I don't believe someone elses dope will be that valuable, because you're talking minute differences in the way the rifles are set up. I think the point of the stage is to think about it, eyeball it, and hold it over rather than to plot a solution and dial it, which in the end I don't think will be as valuable as training to shoot that stage, by shooting it, anyway.
To me that's overthinking it and demanding ridiculous precision for a single stage.
Take your solver and reduce the range increment to 5yds so you can visually see the parabola. With my 6x47L, scope height 1.35", running a 105gr @ 3100fps I am at +.01 from 75yds to 95 yds, zero @ 100yds, and then dropping about .01 every five yards beyond that to 130yds. So, for a 100 yd zero the flat spot (top of the parabola) is from 70 yds to 105 yds. That is so flat for a third of the 100yd trajectory (my zero is right at the end of the top of the parabola) it seems silly to try and calculate that tiny angle. Unless you're shooting beyond 600 yds @ 90 deg cant, you ought to be able to just assume scope height on either side and add a 1/10 mil for every hundred yards and be ABOUT there, because the angle is truly tiny, and if the bullet is dropping 90deg to that it may require a finer than 1/10 mil adjustment. Trying to plot that stage perfectly isn't going to be done with a solver, but with a mapping algorithmic program that will plot the cosine of the parabola of the bullet with respect to that tiny angle between the scope height and zero at 100 yds. That kind of think may interest Bryan Litz, but if you're just interested in a hit go to the range, shoot that way, and gather the dope for your rifle. I don't believe someone elses dope will be that valuable, because you're talking minute differences in the way the rifles are set up. I think the point of the stage is to think about it, eyeball it, and hold it over rather than to plot a solution and dial it, which in the end I don't think will be as valuable as training to shoot that stage, by shooting it, anyway.
Tac,
Of course you can hold for the offset and wind. That is what I did in my match and it worked well because someone gave me the hold. The point of this thread was to determine if my Kestrel or another app can determine the hold. As I stated earlier, I have no access to a range beyond 200 yards so I cannot gather long range DOPE. Try all your calculations the next time you go to the range and see if you can hit a 1 inch dot at 100 on your first shot. Keep in mind that even if your DOPE is dead on balls accurate, shooting a canted rifle is awkward, sight picture, fundamentals, recoil management all take on a new meaning. That was the purpose of the stage at the match- to make the shooter uncomfortable.
Bang
Of course you can hold for the offset and wind. That is what I did in my match and it worked well because someone gave me the hold. The point of this thread was to determine if my Kestrel or another app can determine the hold. As I stated earlier, I have no access to a range beyond 200 yards so I cannot gather long range DOPE. Try all your calculations the next time you go to the range and see if you can hit a 1 inch dot at 100 on your first shot. Keep in mind that even if your DOPE is dead on balls accurate, shooting a canted rifle is awkward, sight picture, fundamentals, recoil management all take on a new meaning. That was the purpose of the stage at the match- to make the shooter uncomfortable.
Bang
You Tube the video MAKE AN IMPACT GUARDIAN LONG RANGE. There is a quick clip of the cant stage. Great match. Great people.
Bang
Bang
