Budget Savage pattern barrels?
- Thread starter m6z
- Start date
I just had John @keystoneaccuracy spin me up a shouldered TL3 barrel. I called him yesterday at 2ish, and I got the notification the barrel shipped this morning. The blank was in stock, and he got right on it. Can't beat that turn around time.
Did he need your action for head space measurements? Also what caliber did you get?
NSS Has 26 inch 6.5's in stock (threaded and non threaded) from two manufacturers. ER Shaw sells their savage caliber conversions for around $200 with headspace gauges and a wrench. eBay has take offs galore.
Do I think there will be more companies selling savage Prefits? Probably. Bolt guns are the new AR-15 as far as DIY goes. Do I think there will be barrels to meet everyone's different contour/caliber/chamber/length etc requirements sitting on the shelf ready to go for $200-$250? No.
Do I think there will be more companies selling savage Prefits? Probably. Bolt guns are the new AR-15 as far as DIY goes. Do I think there will be barrels to meet everyone's different contour/caliber/chamber/length etc requirements sitting on the shelf ready to go for $200-$250? No.
I thought the attraction of a prefix savage style barrel was that a smith doesn't need headspace measurements. You use gauges during installation and lock the headspace down with the barrel nut. Off the shelf pre fit barrels don't work if you still need a smith to headspace them...
He did not need my action as I got it shouldered for a TL3. The idea with TL3s are that they hold a tight enough tolerance, less than .002", that any gunsmith can shoulder a barrel without the action and without jeapordizing headspace.
I got a 6.5x47L
They are discussing shouldered barrels there, not nut set ups. Part of the availability permutation of this thread vs the original affordability discussion
I wanted John at Keystone accuracy to spin me up a shouldered barrel for a bighorn origin. He said he would need the action. He does not trust the blueprint on the origin which I completely understand since they aren't even out yet. But the tl3 he must have enough hands on experience with to trust the dimensions.
I have the information on the Origin, we did the proof test barrels for the prototypes about 8 months back.
After all the noise I made about the TL3's in 2016/2017 telling everyone how repeatable they are it's a wonder that more gunsmiths aren't selling prefit TL3 barrels.
Depending what you want depends on lead time, common stuff we don't have on the shelf but our lead time is coming down. I've been cutting Origin barrels for our order sheets going on 2 months now.
I want the lower price and I'm not saying a low price option has to have lots of options, just do the popular stuff, probably .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor to start.
Maybe they could try a pre-order model where they do batches in other calibers after they get enough orders to make a batch.
There is just a fairly large hole in the market and no reason why it shouldn't be filled.
People that want wildcats or unpopular chamberings would get left out but nothing is perfect.
Maybe they could try a pre-order model where they do batches in other calibers after they get enough orders to make a batch.
There is just a fairly large hole in the market and no reason why it shouldn't be filled.
People that want wildcats or unpopular chamberings would get left out but nothing is perfect.
If there truly were such a hole in the market, some enterprising barrel maker would have stepped in to capitalize and fill it. That's how the market works. I think this hole is only in your imagination.
https://www.shawcustombarrels.com/barrels/price-list-for-barrels-and-services/164
$190 for a savage drop in barrel. Have your smith thread the muzzle for $60 and you're off.
But with Criterion and others sitting just a touch higher its easy to justify saving an extra month to get it.
Dude, I hear you, I really do. I'd love for exactly what I want to be sitting on the shelf for $250 and shoot great. I really would. But as has been said, if it was that easy everybody would do it.
Will more custom actions using savage small shank barrels bring more barrel makers into the prefit game? Probably.
Will it drive down prices that far? I don't think so. Any big name barrel company is established enough that they don't have to compete that heavily on price. Just because you can get a barrel from Criterion for less doesn't drive Bartlein to match their prices, etc.
Will economy of scale drive prices down somewhat? Maybe. But at the end of the day ER Shaw is already hitting your feature list and price point. Doesn't come with an MOA guarantee, but the reviews on Midway don't look half bad. Give it a go and report back with your findings. Your unicorn might already be out there waiting for you.
Or start a barrel company. Kind of seems like those are the only two options at this point in the thread.
$190 for a savage drop in barrel. Have your smith thread the muzzle for $60 and you're off.
But with Criterion and others sitting just a touch higher its easy to justify saving an extra month to get it.
Dude, I hear you, I really do. I'd love for exactly what I want to be sitting on the shelf for $250 and shoot great. I really would. But as has been said, if it was that easy everybody would do it.
Will more custom actions using savage small shank barrels bring more barrel makers into the prefit game? Probably.
Will it drive down prices that far? I don't think so. Any big name barrel company is established enough that they don't have to compete that heavily on price. Just because you can get a barrel from Criterion for less doesn't drive Bartlein to match their prices, etc.
Will economy of scale drive prices down somewhat? Maybe. But at the end of the day ER Shaw is already hitting your feature list and price point. Doesn't come with an MOA guarantee, but the reviews on Midway don't look half bad. Give it a go and report back with your findings. Your unicorn might already be out there waiting for you.
Or start a barrel company. Kind of seems like those are the only two options at this point in the thread.
I heard about those and went looking for them a while back. I remember looking on Brownells and they seemed to be discontinued or Brownells stopped carrying them. I think I remember some poor reviews although I can't find them now.
Any way, if you go to the ER Shaw web page and spec out the barrel I want, it's $360 for a .308 with a threaded muzzle and blued finish.
That's almost Criterion money.
The $190 starting price on those barrels has no muzzle threads, no breach end threads and no finish on the metal either.
I don't see that as filling the budget hole.
Any way, if you go to the ER Shaw web page and spec out the barrel I want, it's $360 for a .308 with a threaded muzzle and blued finish.
That's almost Criterion money.
The $190 starting price on those barrels has no muzzle threads, no breach end threads and no finish on the metal either.
I don't see that as filling the budget hole.
"Drop-in replacement barrels chambered, crowned, and threaded for small and large shank Savage® 10/110 series actions.
4140 ........................ $190"
Sounds like it's chambered, contoured, and has breach ends threads. As I said, have a local Smith do the muzzle. I'm sure someone local can beat their $120 price. Or pick one up from Midway for around $210 with a coupon and you get the gauges and wrench too.
At this price this is what you get. Start adding options and you're right, it's criterion money (and custom), which is what we have all been saying.
4140 ........................ $190"
Sounds like it's chambered, contoured, and has breach ends threads. As I said, have a local Smith do the muzzle. I'm sure someone local can beat their $120 price. Or pick one up from Midway for around $210 with a coupon and you get the gauges and wrench too.
At this price this is what you get. Start adding options and you're right, it's criterion money (and custom), which is what we have all been saying.
This is exactly what I was saying. I backed it up with estimated numbers to try and show why it was something that's currently only a fantasy, but he doesn't want to listen
There are plenty of smart companies out there. They've looked at the market and seen exactly what I've been saying: there's not enough people who want a cheap barrel for their Savage to justify the expense of creating that particular product.
If someone is already out shopping for a replacement barrel or a pre-fit barrel they're likely someone who wants something more accurate than just MOA, because they either shoot a lot (if they're replacing a burned out barrel) or they are looking for something better than what the Savage factory cranks out (which is generally about MOA or a bit better accuracy).
It would definitely be nice, but there just isn't a large enough market to create a sustainable business out of it when you factor in all of the operating costs, the low margins, and the low volumes. To offset the operating costs and margins you can do something like the AR15 barrel manufacturers, where they sell in high volumes. To offset high costs and low volumes you can increase the margins. When all 3 of them aren't great though, you end up with a sinking ship.
I don't need an explanation and no one needs to build a sustainable business because any of the many AR barrel manufacturers could cut Savage pre-fit barrels on the same tooling they use for AR barrels.
It's product diversification, not starting a new business. Fill a third shift, pay off your machinery faster, big boss goes home with more money at the end of the day.
Criterion does both but their Savage pre-fit barrels are more expensive than their AR barrels. It's not because it's more expensive to make (it isn't), it's because there is no competition creating price pressure.
For some reason you don't want a company to go in to that market space, why?
Are you a Remington 700 owner that doesn't want people to buy a Cabellas special Savage and screw on a budget friendly barrel that shoots?
Is that your motivation?
It's product diversification, not starting a new business. Fill a third shift, pay off your machinery faster, big boss goes home with more money at the end of the day.
Criterion does both but their Savage pre-fit barrels are more expensive than their AR barrels. It's not because it's more expensive to make (it isn't), it's because there is no competition creating price pressure.
For some reason you don't want a company to go in to that market space, why?
Are you a Remington 700 owner that doesn't want people to buy a Cabellas special Savage and screw on a budget friendly barrel that shoots?
Is that your motivation?
And that is precisely why you misunderstand this so much.
There is no incentive for a current company to offer this. They can make a larger profit by keeping their current tooling arrangement (there's a fairly significant time investment in creating new toolpaths that you seem to be ignoring) because they know the items will sell and they make profits.
They will need to use different barrel blanks for a Savage pre-fit than an AR-15 barrel blank. You will need to find a new method of fixturing since mass manufacturing doesn't generally use standard chuck jaws on their lathes because they have automatic stock feed capabilities. You will have to train workers to run the machines for the different barrels. You will have to find new suppliers for your barrel blanks, but you will not receive the same volume discount. You will need to pay to market the new product so people hear about it.
I say this all as someone who only owns rifle builds with Savage-style barrels. I have a Cabella's special Savage (12FV) and a Nucleus on the way. I would buy a cheap barrel like that to give it a shot, I'm just trying to help you see why it's impractical currently for companies to offer this product because so few people want it and it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
Criterion's pre-fit Savage barrels are more expensive than the AR barrels because they need to maintain a higher standard of accuracy and because they sell FAR more of them than they do of their Savage barrels. When you sell more, costs per barrel go down because you get bulk discounts and you can build greater efficiency into the process (you don't have to worry about whether or not you'll recoup the cost as much, because you sell a lot).
AR barrels also require significantly less quality control and precision than a barrel for a bolt gun. If the bolt gun barrel shoots 1 MOA people will be disappointed that's all it can do. If an AR barrel shoot 1 MOA people will be quite happy with it.
Again, I've been over these issues but you seem to be ignoring literally everything I have taken the time to try and explain to you. You're free to believe there's a market for it if you'd like and contact the companies yourself, but I don't think you'll get the response you're looking for.
When was the last time you stepped in to a CNC machine shop and when was the last time you pressed a button?
A premium Savage pre-fit like a PVA is made one at a time. The magic in a budget AR barrel is when a barrel maker figures out how to gang up a bunch of barrel blanks, cut them in batches and do it well enough that they shoot well, all with a machine operator that probably makes $25 an hour and doesn't care.
Also, unless you make your own blanks like Criterion, chances are you would use the same blank for LR308/AR10 and Savage pre-fit. The Savage blank needs to be large enough to cut 1.0625"-20 threads, the AR blank needs to be big enough for 1"-20 threads. It's not a big difference and if you ever shopped for barrel blanks, you would know the granularity of the O.D. choices is pretty coarse.
I doubt Criterion would make an LR308 barrel from a blank too small to cut for a Savage small shank. I'm well aware of stock feeders for lathes but they don't use a stock feeder to put a rifled blank in their turning center for profiling. They would just use it for gun drilling and cutting blanks off of their bar stock. I'm pretty sure that O.D. granularity is because they don't want to stock more than 3-4 diameters of bar stock. And they don't mind taking an extra cut or two in the profiling process (it is CNC after all).
There is no legitimate reason why it can't be done with about the same cost as an AR barrel of similar quality and there are some damn good $250 AR barrels (I own a few).
A premium Savage pre-fit like a PVA is made one at a time. The magic in a budget AR barrel is when a barrel maker figures out how to gang up a bunch of barrel blanks, cut them in batches and do it well enough that they shoot well, all with a machine operator that probably makes $25 an hour and doesn't care.
Also, unless you make your own blanks like Criterion, chances are you would use the same blank for LR308/AR10 and Savage pre-fit. The Savage blank needs to be large enough to cut 1.0625"-20 threads, the AR blank needs to be big enough for 1"-20 threads. It's not a big difference and if you ever shopped for barrel blanks, you would know the granularity of the O.D. choices is pretty coarse.
I doubt Criterion would make an LR308 barrel from a blank too small to cut for a Savage small shank. I'm well aware of stock feeders for lathes but they don't use a stock feeder to put a rifled blank in their turning center for profiling. They would just use it for gun drilling and cutting blanks off of their bar stock. I'm pretty sure that O.D. granularity is because they don't want to stock more than 3-4 diameters of bar stock. And they don't mind taking an extra cut or two in the profiling process (it is CNC after all).
There is no legitimate reason why it can't be done with about the same cost as an AR barrel of similar quality and there are some damn good $250 AR barrels (I own a few).
At this point I have to assume you just aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer. We would all love $250, .5MOA, muzzle threaded Savage barrels. But for many really rational reasons, which have been described to you as nauseum, this isn't the case. Yet you think you know the market better than all of the barrel makers in this space who are actively jockeying with each other to capitalize on actionable opportunities.
So have at it. Put your money where your mouth is and fill the gap.
The legitimate reason is that it doesn’t make economic sense to tie up money, machines, employees, and inventory in a project without an established market when all of that can be effectively used to produce barrels that sell. Machines and employees making barrels with little marketability can’t make barrels that sell. Money and inventory invested in barrels with limited appeal cannot be invested in barrels that move. The sad fact is that your special snowflake is not special to everyone. The market you see likely does not exist. Just because you want a savage unicorn does not mean anyone else does. Go to a match and ask 20 competitors to name 2 rifle manufactures off the top of their heads. I bet savage is near the bottom of those mentioned.
It was last month, actually, to manufacture prototype parts for a project I was working on and to learn more about manufacturing feasibility of said project. I'd be willing to bet that is more recent than you, considering you don't seem to understand the amount of effort that goes into changing a production line from one mass produced item to a different item that is similar on the surface but can't be mass produced without creating huge amounts of overstock due to low demand.
If you think the mass manufacturers aren't making their own blanks from bar stock, you're deluding yourself. It is by far cheaper to do that than purchase rifled barrel blanks, unless of course you can't sell tens of thousands of barrels a year (such as if you were to sell a niche product, like a $250 Savage pre-fit that's supposed to just be able to shoot MOA or a bit better).
For me it was April also. I had to put away some of the $100,000 project I worked on last year. I won't mention what it was but I was a fabrication lead.
I used to be professional but I've gone amateur because I can make a lot more money doing other things. I still like to get my hands dirty.
Good luck with your project. It's probably going to be another year or two before I get in to anything big because it's hard to fund raise $100,000 to support a hobby.
Oh, one thing about that project last year, it had over 100 similar but unique CNC cut pieces each using a different CNC program but all cut in the same tooling. How about that?
I used to be professional but I've gone amateur because I can make a lot more money doing other things. I still like to get my hands dirty.
Good luck with your project. It's probably going to be another year or two before I get in to anything big because it's hard to fund raise $100,000 to support a hobby.
Oh, one thing about that project last year, it had over 100 similar but unique CNC cut pieces each using a different CNC program but all cut in the same tooling. How about that?
Cool, sounds like the guys who set up your toolpaths and fixtures did a good job and spent a lot of time optimizing to make sure that this could happen.
Man hours aren't free, and that's the point I'm trying to make here. Every time you take a machine off the production line that could be producing AR barrels to try and optimize the new pattern for the Savage barrels you're both losing revenue (barrels you could have made) and spending money (to pay the machinist/s who are working on it). For something with a small market a large investment like that doesn't make much sense, which is why you currently see higher priced barrels because the market isn't large enough to support a heavily optimized process that cranks out barrels in large volumes at low prices.
“Nobody who dropped the cash on a Nucleus action is going to be interested in a low budget barrel for their expensive action” - the pretzel. “I say this all as someone who only owns rifle builds with Savage-style barrels. I have a Cabella's special Savage (12FV) and a Nucleus on the way.” -the pretzel”. ??
I was just looking through the Memorial day sales and cheap barrels.
KAK makes one of the cheapest LR308 type barrels, a 16" .308 Value Line. It's a Green Mountain blank, melonite coated and has 5/8-24 muzzle threads. All for $125. I found a Memorial day coupon code, 15% off so it was actually $106.25.
I've been thinking about a spare .308 barrel for my LR308s and I had a $125 gift card burning a hole in my pocket (I was asked to participate in a political focus group about soda tax and told them it was stupid) so I bought it.
KAK (not KAC) barrels are not known for phenomenal accuracy but from most reports this one shoots about 1 MOA. Not quite what I would want in a bolt action but fine for shooting surplus 7.62*51 in an LR308.
So KAK makes barrels but not blanks or at least they found someone to make a decent barrel cheap enough that they can sell them that cheap.
ARP makes barrels but not the blanks, the prices are higher but the accuracy is much better too. They actually made Savage pre-fit barrels but only in 7mm08 which is kind of an oddball. I'm just saying do what he did but in more popular calibers.
Any way, I got all the features I want in a Savage pre-fit barrel except it's for an LR308. I got to tell off a bunch of Bloomberg wannabes also. It only cost me about an hour out of my day.
KAK makes one of the cheapest LR308 type barrels, a 16" .308 Value Line. It's a Green Mountain blank, melonite coated and has 5/8-24 muzzle threads. All for $125. I found a Memorial day coupon code, 15% off so it was actually $106.25.
I've been thinking about a spare .308 barrel for my LR308s and I had a $125 gift card burning a hole in my pocket (I was asked to participate in a political focus group about soda tax and told them it was stupid) so I bought it.
KAK (not KAC) barrels are not known for phenomenal accuracy but from most reports this one shoots about 1 MOA. Not quite what I would want in a bolt action but fine for shooting surplus 7.62*51 in an LR308.
So KAK makes barrels but not blanks or at least they found someone to make a decent barrel cheap enough that they can sell them that cheap.
ARP makes barrels but not the blanks, the prices are higher but the accuracy is much better too. They actually made Savage pre-fit barrels but only in 7mm08 which is kind of an oddball. I'm just saying do what he did but in more popular calibers.
Any way, I got all the features I want in a Savage pre-fit barrel except it's for an LR308. I got to tell off a bunch of Bloomberg wannabes also. It only cost me about an hour out of my day.
Yes, that is correct. The Savage 12FV I picked up because it was a good sale from Cabela's and I needed my own rifle (it was $260 after rebate) since I did not personally own one at the time. The 12FV is a decent rifle and makes for a great beater gun that I plan to use as a hunting rifle for years to come since it's cheap and still manages to shoot MOA or a little better out to 400 yards.
I've ordered a Nucleus and I will not be putting a low budget barrel on it. The cheapest I would consider is Criterion or Shilen, but only because of their extensive history of making accurate barrels, and I may still go with a PVA barrel instead (I have yet to decide entirely, I flip flop from day to day). I would not be putting a $200-250 barrel on my Nucleus action unless the brand also had a history of shooting tiny groups instead of just shooting groups MOA or a bit better like my Savage.
It isn't mutually exclusive to have Savage threaded rifles and still want a good barrel for it, or to have the cheapest gun on the market (besides maybe a TC Compass w/ rebate) and also be wanting to build a higher end rifle. If you're referring to me talking in the past a lot about using a Christensen rifle, that would be because one of my employers is generous enough to lend me their demo gun to use for competitions - I can't afford to drop $4,800 on a TFM (which is why I'm building my own gun on a Nucleus action for a little less than half that price instead).
Some of you project an awful lot. I don't think like that at all. Not everyone thinks like me but some do. A lot more than nobody any way.
One day you'll be at the range, all out of your good ammo, shooting cheap .308 through your 12FV thinking that it would be nice to shoot some .308 through your Nucleus with it's nice trigger, nice scope and a chassis/stock that fits you just right. Then you'll think wouldn't it be nice to have a cheap plinking/hunting/suppressor barrel that you could just plug in, keep shooting and not really care about.
I don't own any cheap bolt guns (unless you count Mosins) so my .308 options are a few FALs, a LR308 after I build an upper with that KAK barrel and put my Savage take off barrel in my Nucleus (when it comes together). I'm actually thinking I should build up my Nucleus as a .308 first, work out any bugs with the action, chassis or optics and then switch to my nice barrel after it's running 100% and I have some .308 dope to file away.
One day you'll be at the range, all out of your good ammo, shooting cheap .308 through your 12FV thinking that it would be nice to shoot some .308 through your Nucleus with it's nice trigger, nice scope and a chassis/stock that fits you just right. Then you'll think wouldn't it be nice to have a cheap plinking/hunting/suppressor barrel that you could just plug in, keep shooting and not really care about.
I don't own any cheap bolt guns (unless you count Mosins) so my .308 options are a few FALs, a LR308 after I build an upper with that KAK barrel and put my Savage take off barrel in my Nucleus (when it comes together). I'm actually thinking I should build up my Nucleus as a .308 first, work out any bugs with the action, chassis or optics and then switch to my nice barrel after it's running 100% and I have some .308 dope to file away.
I mean, I reload all the ammo I shoot at this point in time so the cost difference between calibers is minimal. It's cheaper to reload 6mm rounds than it is for me to reload .308 rounds, which offsets a fair amount of the barrel life difference (and 6BR still lasts, from what I have heard and read, around 3,000-4,000 rounds if you're not shooting super hot loads).
I personally don't consider barrel costs to be a huge concern if it lasts 3,000 rounds or more, since at 3,000 rounds a $375 barrel will cost $0.125 per shot whereas a barrel that lasts 6,000 rounds will cost $0.0625 per shot. Saving 6 cents per shot is more than accounted for by the difference in the price of bullets and amount of powder between 6mm and .308, at least to me since I only shoot reloads (since they're the cheapest option).
I'm not denying that some people would buy it. I agree that you would get several thousand orders for the barrels, I just don't think it would be a sustainable business since the volume isn't enough to support the small margins of budget barrels. Hell, I could see myself buying one if/when I burn out the barrel on my 12FV (currently I plan to just buy another Savage barrel off eBay for it), I just personally wouldn't put it onto my Nucleus and most people I know wouldn't put it on their Nucleus/Bighorn with the Savage barrel threads. You'd primarily be selling to the few Savage rifle owners who want a nicer barrel than the stock option but don't want to spend a little more to get a truly match quality barrel.
It's fine to disagree, and I think that what this comes down to here is a fundamental disagreement between the two of us on how large the market for such a product really is. I'll bow out of the conversation here because I think we've both said our main points many times now, neither of us has had a changed opinion, and we don't need to keep repeating them over and over in the open but if you'd like to discuss it further feel free to shoot me a PM.
You can order a barrel directly from ER shaw.
You can specify twist, length and profile.
Their work is quite good, they upgraded to new CNC machines a few years back.
I just recently bought a short chambered .308 for my sons Howa in the Shaw #3 contour (light varmint). The work was very well done and the barrel is a good shooter.
I have a shaw barrel on my .300 Blk AR shortie that is very accurate.
A savage 4140 steel barrel is 190 bucks, a stainless is 270, that is threaded, chambered and crowned.
Not sure if either of these have been mentioned, but here are a couple more options.
https://raggedholebarrels.net/colle...-chambeed-savage-barrel?variant=4741861638173
http://apachegunworks.com/pricing.html
https://raggedholebarrels.net/colle...-chambeed-savage-barrel?variant=4741861638173
http://apachegunworks.com/pricing.html
