Rifle Scopes H59 or Tremor?
- Thread starter WT1
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The T3 lines seem thinner and easier to see thru than the H59 to my eyes ... and of course the wind dots ...
T3 at 22x looking at targets at about 550yds
T3 at 22x looking at targets at about 550yds
I have H59 scopes. Played with the T3, just don’t see the point for my application. Haven’t ruled them out, but just don’t need the additions it offers.
Used to have H59's, then tried the T3 and won't go back to anything else. All of my optics are T3 now.
T3 is just an H59 with the wind dots added so you essentially still have an H59, just enhanced.
T3 is just an H59 with the wind dots added so you essentially still have an H59, just enhanced.
This one's been around. T3 on the left and H59 on the right.
Thanks - I hadn't seen that before. I really like the T3 better due to the finer lines on the reticle. The wind dots are great once you start using them, but the reticle just seems easier to see through on the T3.
H59 for me. If I was shooting at people overseas I'd learn up the T3 and go from there.
I have both the T3 in a 5-25 pmII and the H59 in a 3-27 hi power and I like both. Looking at them on paper I struggled with both a little but H59 seemed hardest to look at. To me either on paper look busy. You get in a field situation and it’s a different story. The human brain filters out a lot of what you’re not focused on. The H59 is on my ELR rifle and I like being able to use grid for corrections and the target dot is a good size IMO. The T3 I don’t use the the fullest all the time but when time has been limited or can’t dial the wind dots work, you just need to know what MPH your gun is to the dot. To say wind dot is useless is wrong, you might not use them, or haven’t taken the time to work them out with your rifle, they work if you learn them just like anything.
Most of my wind calling is intuitive based on experience anyway so I don't need the T3 wind dots.
In bad winds I dial windage vs holding off like I normally would, well I'd be dialing elevation by then.
If it's too windy I pack up and go home, lol. I shoot to have fun, not be tortured by nature.
In dynamic stages when off a steady rest, like off the bipod, I'm dialed down to 15x or so, so personally I think the thickness of the reticle in the H59 is well suited for such when holding over and off.
I recently sold a scope which had a thinner reticle because when dialed down it wasn't easy to see and the other reason is I don't like it when reticles go from .2's to .5's in the tree. Up on max mag or close to it I liked the thinner reticle. Such is life with FFP. Come to think of it I've never missed a target because a reticle was too thick???
In bad winds I dial windage vs holding off like I normally would, well I'd be dialing elevation by then.
If it's too windy I pack up and go home, lol. I shoot to have fun, not be tortured by nature.
In dynamic stages when off a steady rest, like off the bipod, I'm dialed down to 15x or so, so personally I think the thickness of the reticle in the H59 is well suited for such when holding over and off.
I recently sold a scope which had a thinner reticle because when dialed down it wasn't easy to see and the other reason is I don't like it when reticles go from .2's to .5's in the tree. Up on max mag or close to it I liked the thinner reticle. Such is life with FFP. Come to think of it I've never missed a target because a reticle was too thick???
Well the problem with that is you can't find one on the shelf at a store here in Wisconsin, at least that I know of, and coming up with the funds for a scope that I haven't looked through or investigated to a certain extent is not something I'd do, which is why I'm posting the question. I can look through a number of Vortex scopes and really like the HD AMG's and Gen II Razors but want to look through as many as possible. That's the problem in my opinion with looking for a high end or even a medium level quality/cost scope. It's not easy if you don't have a shop that offers that type of product.
Well, if you can't look thru one, here are a few thru the lens pics. Thru the lens pics suck, especially with my phone cameras, especially with me taking them, but its all I got.
Some steel yotes at about 550yds at a match. You can click on these pics to see a larger versions. All these are T3, most are the NF 7-35x a few a L&S mk6 3-18x.
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500yds steel and paper on my land
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500yds steel with PVS-30
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415yd mineral feeder in the day
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415yds mineral feeder at night with the PVS-9
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750yds steel in the rain. The target is just left of the verticle line at the 6 mil UP hold mark, which was pretty much extactly where I was holding for the base wind (2mph) that day.
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Cattle in the SE pasture at 334 yds with the UTCx
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And just to clarify, I use "no-dial" shooting with the T3s because I have range finders mounted on the rifles with the T3 reticles and for ranging, the dial needs to be at the 100yd zero. After about 1000yds I have to dial up 5 mils. That throws off the range finder and the wind dots (for the .300WM) then change for 5 mph value for each dot, to 2.5 MPH value for each dot. If I was to dial up 10 mils, then the 5 MPH wind dot value for the .300WM(24) becomes 1.25 MPH per dot and with 8 wind dots, that gives you support for up to 10 mph (though you can extrapolate to 11.25) easily with 10 mils and 20 mph (extrapolate to 22.5) with 5 mils.
So, no dial shooting up to 1,000 yds for me with the T3, keeps the range finders in business.
Note, the wind dot value for my .308WIN(22) and 6.5G(18) are 4 mph each and for the 5.56(18) 3 mph each. So, when using the wind dots, you just estimate the wind in MPH and hold that amount. I usually run a 2 minute wind estimating exercise before each string of say 5 rounds. I measure the low, average and high wind and listen for the sounds (mostly of the trees) to mark the high and low wind. I also observe the trees moving at various points along the bullet path. I then hold for that MPH and can adjust my hold to align with what I hear and see. You think and hold in MPH, no need to convert to mils for the wind holds. That's the value of the wind dots.
Some steel yotes at about 550yds at a match. You can click on these pics to see a larger versions. All these are T3, most are the NF 7-35x a few a L&S mk6 3-18x.
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500yds steel and paper on my land
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500yds steel with PVS-30
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415yd mineral feeder in the day
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415yds mineral feeder at night with the PVS-9
==
750yds steel in the rain. The target is just left of the verticle line at the 6 mil UP hold mark, which was pretty much extactly where I was holding for the base wind (2mph) that day.
==
Cattle in the SE pasture at 334 yds with the UTCx
==
And just to clarify, I use "no-dial" shooting with the T3s because I have range finders mounted on the rifles with the T3 reticles and for ranging, the dial needs to be at the 100yd zero. After about 1000yds I have to dial up 5 mils. That throws off the range finder and the wind dots (for the .300WM) then change for 5 mph value for each dot, to 2.5 MPH value for each dot. If I was to dial up 10 mils, then the 5 MPH wind dot value for the .300WM(24) becomes 1.25 MPH per dot and with 8 wind dots, that gives you support for up to 10 mph (though you can extrapolate to 11.25) easily with 10 mils and 20 mph (extrapolate to 22.5) with 5 mils.
So, no dial shooting up to 1,000 yds for me with the T3, keeps the range finders in business.
Note, the wind dot value for my .308WIN(22) and 6.5G(18) are 4 mph each and for the 5.56(18) 3 mph each. So, when using the wind dots, you just estimate the wind in MPH and hold that amount. I usually run a 2 minute wind estimating exercise before each string of say 5 rounds. I measure the low, average and high wind and listen for the sounds (mostly of the trees) to mark the high and low wind. I also observe the trees moving at various points along the bullet path. I then hold for that MPH and can adjust my hold to align with what I hear and see. You think and hold in MPH, no need to convert to mils for the wind holds. That's the value of the wind dots.
Here is a couple of my T3 at 500 yard kyl rack around 12-15 x in a s&b 5-25 the other is 395 yard small ipsc can’t remember if it’s 50% or 2/3 on the same magnification. It was a drizzling overcast day.
That gives you a pretty good idea what the reticles look like against something other than a white background. Thank you for including the pics and the descriptions. It helps.
Here is a tutorial I found on the TheRefineMilReticle done by Todd Hodnett, the designer of the reticle:
Thanks for all the insights. Looking at a optic for battle rifle and trying to pick a decent optic and reticle. Looking at h59 . I like the skmr3 but not avail with s&b.
I was torn between the h59 and tremor as well. I had some opportunities to look through the h59 on some work guns and was pretty happy with what I saw. After a few months of research and debating with myself I went with the tremor3. I really like the concept and use of the wind dots and wanted to give it a try. I've got about 500 rounds though the rifle with it and so far I'm happy. Most of that time was spent trying to diag an accuracy issue, and doing load dev. For that use it didnt feel busy at all and the center dot made for a very consistent aim point. I'll be heading out this weekend to shoot at some decent distance and should be able to get a good feel for usage if the wind dots. But as of now i think it's going to work great for me
I have both an like both. I use a S&B 3x27 H-59 on the .338lm for ELR shooting and the S&B 5x25 T3 on my 6cm with i shoot out to over 1000 yards.
Agreed. I got a chance to take my tremor3 out today in some wind for a change. Winds were anywhere from 0 to 16mph, quite gusty. Shooting out to 800m with a 6.5 creedmoor and I have to say the dots made life easy. I'm definitely sold on it
Easy is good. I know you can fundamentally do the wind calls without the dots, trust me I've done it for a long time. But not having to think about the calculations each time can be invaluable, especially when under pressure. When you're under pressure simplicity may be the most valuable element of anything you do. I don't do any competition shooting, not yet anyway. Everything I do is in the field, mostly hunting. When I'm hunting coyotes there's no time to figure out a MIL formula for wind, if I don't take the shot now then I miss the shot completely.
I finally found a pic of my H58 (now upgraded to a T3)
This is 600yds at paper target. The reason it is fuzzy is I am prone literally down in the weeds. At min magnification, I could not see the target at all, just the weeds. But on max magnification I was "burning thru" the weeds and able to see and hit at least a fuzzy target. This is repeatable on different days with different scopes. I still haven't figured out exactly how this "burn thru" process works. But I definitely think the T3 is easier to see THRU than the H58/H59.
This is 600yds at paper target. The reason it is fuzzy is I am prone literally down in the weeds. At min magnification, I could not see the target at all, just the weeds. But on max magnification I was "burning thru" the weeds and able to see and hit at least a fuzzy target. This is repeatable on different days with different scopes. I still haven't figured out exactly how this "burn thru" process works. But I definitely think the T3 is easier to see THRU than the H58/H59.
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This reticle by Leupold, The FFP CCH seems to be Leupold's entry in to the elaborate reticles: https://www.leupold.com/reticles/reticle-ffp-cch-177
Leupold sent me the subtensions diagrams which are attached here. Of all of them I would have to say I almost like Vortex's MRAD the most but the Tremor3, H59, and Leupold's CCH all have positive aspects.
Leupold sent me the subtensions diagrams which are attached here. Of all of them I would have to say I almost like Vortex's MRAD the most but the Tremor3, H59, and Leupold's CCH all have positive aspects.
For all intents and purposes both reticles main stadia subtends .050 MRAD and center dot is .050. All other lines are also sized the same with the only difference being the dots added on the T3. Illustrations can be very misleading.
^^^^
Ditto. I have both T3 and H59 reticles in my scopes. To my eye, the line sub-tensions are the same and the only thing that the T3 offers is more versatility with the wind dots, which are hugely useful once you have developed your wind-calling skill. The T3 is what I would ultimately recommend as it is a more evolved H59 and what the Tremor 2 should have been back when Horus introduced the wind dot feature.
That's what I was thinking. Glad you are confirming that. When I watched Todd Hodnett's Magpul DVD, the Art of Long Range or something to that effect which I sold here on the hide for $60 and now you can't find it for less than $300 (wish I'd a waited), when he had the guys from Magpul shooting in the prone they were all using either 308's or 300WM at 1,000 yards and a mile (DVD was made before 6.5 Creedmoor). He seemed to be giving them corrections for a 308 for the most part.
Maybe it’s just me but I prefer the h59 because the mils on the main horizontal are numbered where the tremor3 are not. Also, I had a T3 and never used the wind dots because as you dial elevation the value changes (doubles or halved I forget) and it was just easier for me to remember a mil hold than wind dots and what they’re new value was.
I prefer the cleaner look of the H59, while still being able to make quick follow up shots using the reticle.
Either one will take time behind your rifle to become fluid.
Either one will take time behind your rifle to become fluid.
The CCH reticle comes in at about $100 less on the Mark 5 scopes. Seems like an interesting feature set except when you actually look at the reticle there are those large pointers coming in from the four directionals. What is their function? Anyone know? They kind of seem like a largish distraction.
I finally found a pic of my H58 (now upgraded to a T3)
This is 600yds at paper target. The reason it is fuzzy is I am prone literally down in the weeds. At min magnification, I could not see the target at all, just the weeds. But on max magnification I was "burning thru" the weeds and able to see and hit at least a fuzzy target. This is repeatable on different days with different scopes. I still haven't figured out exactly how this "burn thru" process works. But I definitely think the T3 is easier to see THRU than the H58/H59.
What do the stepped hash marks above the horizontal signify?
