PRS Talk 223 vs 308 tac class

[Krazy Korean]

Hello,
A couple buddies and I are thinking about humping into the tac class fun and are torn between the 223 and 308. The 223 is cheaper to shoot, so more rounds down range, less recoil for easier calls and faster follow-ups. The 308 would have slightly better wind (I figured .2 mils at 1k with a full value 10mph wind), better splash on the ground to find misses, and more feedback on the steel. You have more recoil, but with heavy guns it doesn't seem to matter a whole lot... If you're shooting tac class, which did you go with and why?

Thanks,
K

 

[lte82]

308. Lot better bullet selection (if you are shooting TAC anyway) and easier to tune IMO.

 

[LA260]

Hello,
A couple buddies and I are thinking about humping into the tac class fun and are torn between the 223 and 308. The 223 is cheaper to shoot, so more rounds down range, less recoil for easier calls and faster follow-ups. The 308 would have slightly better wind (I figured .2 mils at 1k with a full value 10mph wind), better splash on the ground to find misses, and more feedback on the steel. You have more recoil, but with heavy guns it doesn't seem to matter a whole lot... If you're shooting tac class, which did you go with and why?

Thanks,
K

I think that would depend on type of match you shoot. One of my local mickey mouse matches only goes to 700 and no one ever gets to shoot the 700yds because everyone times out so realistic max dist is 525yds. Wind is not much of a factor either because of the location. First couple of times I shot it with 6.5x47 and it was a complete overkill. Thought about shooting it with the 308 barrel but didn't see the point either so now I just shoot it with a 223.kinda having more fun to be honest. If the matches you shoot are 5-600 plus and windy 308 would be a better choice.

 

[Unknown]

308 because at anything over about 500 yards it can be harder for spotters to call hits on larger plates. Going to a 77 grain bullet for the 5.56 mitigates much of the 308's wind advantage, but the 308 can play around with bullet selection too in order to maintain better wind bucking. As LA260 mentions the 6.5 (or 6mm) cartridges do have a significant advantage over either 308 or 5.56..that is precisely why so many PRS shooters use them.

If OP wants to stay in the 5.56/308 class of shooters, then he will have to pick one. The 77 grain 5.56 bullet really helps with wind and makes a significant improvement over the 55-69 grain bullets for wind bucking.

 

[Krazy Korean]

308 because at anything over about 500 yards it can be harder for spotters to call hits on larger plates. Going to a 77 grain bullet for the 5.56 mitigates much of the 308's wind advantage, but the 308 can play around with bullet selection too in order to maintain better wind bucking. As LA260 mentions the 6.5 (or 6mm) cartridges do have a significant advantage over either 308 or 5.56..that is precisely why so many PRS shooters use them.

If OP wants to stay in the 5.56/308 class of shooters, then he will have to pick one. The 77 grain 5.56 bullet really helps with wind and makes a significant improvement over the 55-69 grain bullets for wind bucking.

I've compared the 75 eldm at 2950 and the 178 eldm at 2750 and the 308 is .2 mil better at 1k with a full value 10mph wind. The 308 is more expensive to shoot and has more recoil, but you can see impacts on and off steel better. The 223 is cheap to shoot and very little recoil which helps for spotting impacts, but the splash isn't always visible depending on the back stop. I think I know which way I'm leaning, but time will tell. Just thought it was strange that the top guys in tac class seem to shoot 308.

 

[Unknown]

While I own both calibers, I shoot either 6.5 or 308 in PRS matches for the reasons posted above. Some of the hotter 5.56 rounds do pretty well, but they are in the same class of weapons as the 6 and 6.5mm rifles. The tactical class is limited to either the 5.56x45 or 308 (7.62x51) rifles.

 

[BradyW]

Not the same as PRS but..

Coming from high power, I know a few people that are shooting .223 out to 1,000 with great success. What they have done is to get a reamer with a lot more throat and seat the bullets waaay out. Shooting 80 ELD-Ms and 90s over 3,000 fps. Not bad on brass life, either, using mostly H4895.

My question on this part is: Is that feasible with the box magazines? Are they long enough to accept an 80 grain bullet seated out for a chamber with .170+ throat? Will this work for PRS? I'd be interested to try it, but I want to get some time on my palma rifle doing this first.

Best of Luck,
Brady

 

[_Raining]

Not the same as PRS but..

Coming from high power, I know a few people that are shooting .223 out to 1,000 with great success. What they have done is to get a reamer with a lot more throat and seat the bullets waaay out. Shooting 80 ELD-Ms and 90s over 3,000 fps. Not bad on brass life, either, using mostly H4895.

My question on this part is: Is that feasible with the box magazines? Are they long enough to accept an 80 grain bullet seated out for a chamber with .170+ throat? Will this work for PRS? I'd be interested to try it, but I want to get some time on my palma rifle doing this first.

Best of Luck,
Brady

I would assume a bolt gun with short action AICS magazine for 223 would be long enough but PRS is limited to 77 grains for 223 and 178 grains for 308, for some reason.

2.2.2
5.56 NATO/.223 Remington has a bullet weight cap of 77 grains and muzzle velocity cannot exceed 3,000 fps (+/- 30 fps for environmental factors and equipment discrepancies).

2.2.3
7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester has a bullet weight cap of 178 grains and muzzle velocity cannot exceed 2,800 fps (+/- 28 fps for environmental factors and equipment discrepancies).

 

[Krazy Korean]

That's why I included the 75 eldm and the 178 eldm. Those seem to be the best options as far as bc when it comes the limitations.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I would assume a bolt gun with short action AICS magazine for 223 would be long enough but PRS is limited to 77 grains for 223 and 178 grains for 308, for some reason.

2.2.2
5.56 NATO/.223 Remington has a bullet weight cap of 77 grains and muzzle velocity cannot exceed 3,000 fps (+/- 30 fps for environmental factors and equipment discrepancies).

2.2.3
7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester has a bullet weight cap of 178 grains and muzzle velocity cannot exceed 2,800 fps (+/- 28 fps for environmental factors and equipment discrepancies).

The limits are only if you're shooting Tac class, and those weights were selected because (at that time) they were the heaviest weights commonly found in factory ammo, and lined up with ammo commonly issues for MIL and LE for precision rifles. The limits on velocity were also based on factory and issued ammo.

 

[deanq]

The limits are only if you're shooting Tac class, and those weights were selected because (at that time) they were the heaviest weights commonly found in factory ammo, and lined up with ammo commonly issues for MIL and LE for precision rifles. The limits on velocity were also based on factory and issued ammo.

That's the title and topic of this whole thread! OP's question was .223 vs .308. Personally, shooting both, if any distances >600 yds, I'd go .308.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

That's the title and topic of this whole thread! OP's question was .223 vs .308. Personally, shooting both, if any distances >600 yds, I'd go .308.

I was mostly addressing the "for some reason" part of your statement to give the WHY of it.

 

[Krazy Korean]

I wish they'd open the limitations up a little more. Same speed, maybe heavier bullets. Or I'd even trade heavier bullets and drop the speed just a bit. Like 80 grains and 2950 or something for 223.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I wish they'd open the limitations up a little more. Same speed, maybe heavier bullets. Or I'd even trade heavier bullets and drop the speed just a bit. Like 80 grains and 2950 or something for 223.

The original intent was to allow LE/MIL guys to use work guns to compete. Considering there's no factory ammo I am aware of throwing 80gr bullets in 223, I don't see that happening.

 

[Krazy Korean]

The original intent was to allow LE/MIL guys to use work guns to compete. Considering there's no factory ammo I am aware of throwing 80gr bullets in 223, I don't see that happening.

Yeah, but the tac class has become an outlaw tac class with 30# 308 rifles, super light triggers, etc. Things you'd never see in real life. I wish they'd get a little more strict on stuff with it honestly. 15#, 1.5# trigger, etc

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Yeah, but the tac class has become an outlaw tac class with 30# 308 rifles, super light triggers, etc. Things you'd never see in real life. I wish they'd get a little more strict on stuff with it honestly. 15#, 1.5# trigger, etc

The more you try to restrict, the more work you put on the match directors. People have already 'gamed' (read: outright cheated) in production as it, as they don't get caught because nobody bothers to check that rifles are obeying the rules. At least I have seen some TAC guys get speed and ammo checked, but trying to enforce any more than that is likely a lost cause.

The real irony is that ever single active LE/MIL guy I know shooting PRS is shooting in open. All of the TAC shooters I can think of are shooting it because they want to.

 

[BradyW]

I would assume a bolt gun with short action AICS magazine for 223 would be long enough but PRS is limited to 77 grains for 223 and 178 grains for 308, for some reason.

Right, I get that you can't exceed 77 grains - what I was getting at was that it's possible to seat out some of those bullets in a longer throat and be effective at long range - of course I understand that it is a different target system entirely. The 10 ring is 20" diameter, and the X ring is 10" diameter, so we aren't talking about tiny targets at distance - if you shoot into the 36" or whatever 9 ring it's only one point lost.

And I tried over the weekend - a service rifle with a 20" barrel and a 4x scope is not very effective on barricade, even just at 300! Too wobbly - a round handguard was not ideal.

Good luck!

 

[slowlearner]

A 77gr bullet seems to wiggle some of the bigger steel about as much as some of the 6dasher folks.

If you are using it as an excuse to build a rifle, like you said, the component cost of 223 is much lower, while offering less recoil compared to a 308. And you could likely run a bit shorter of a barrel and suppressor if that is your style.

 

[Krazy Korean]

That's actually pretty much what I decided. I was torn between the cost of training and shooting a 223 in tac vs the better BC and visible impact from a 308. I ended up buying a Remington sps tac in 223 that I'll run suppressed for practice, and this winter I plan on building a custom 308 to run for tac class. A few of my buddies are talking about running tac class too, so it should be fun. 223 comes in this Wednesday and then my Smith is doing a few things to it, but I'll have it this upcoming weekend.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The real irony is that ever single active LE/MIL guy I know shooting PRS is shooting in open. All of the TAC shooters I can think of are shooting it because they want to.

Mainly because using a real work rifle is trivial when the top “tac” shooters are using rifles that we’d never run in real life.

If I’m going to use a 30lb rifle, might as well use a 6mm as it really defeats the whole original intent of the class.

 

[Krazy Korean]

I agree 100%. But me and my buddies want to be competitive with the tac class guys as well. Hard to be competitive when you're going against open class guns that basically follow the tac class bullet and velocity rules.

 

[FN-Whitney]

I have thought about going towards the tac class to be more competitive with my 308 but I like competing in the open class, maybe next year I'll give it a try but I would definitely go with 308.

 

[slowlearner]

I have thought about going towards the tac class to be more competitive with my 308 but I like competing in the open class, maybe next year I'll give it a try but I would definitely go with 308.

In many ways it only really matters if you:
1) are competing for points or go to the finale
2) have a legitimate chance at being high 308 for recognition/trophy.

Either way, you walk the prize table in the overall finish. So if you are out to have fun and compare to everyone, it doesn’t really change.

 

[NLR WY]

Check out the last 2 years of Rifleman's Team Challenge standings, last year, Ckye Thomas and Seth Berglee pretty much dominated TAC class shooting .223's, this year, Seth and Jeff Cardarelle are beating open class guns with the .223 and 77 gr RDF blems.... I've asked them, they swear by the 223 for TAC.

 

[Krazy Korean]

Im out for the competition of the TAC Class. The open class is extremely competitive and very deep. Tac class seems like there are only 2 or 3 really competitive guys at most matches. I figured while I try to improve I might as well have fun playing with the tac class and hopefully work on my wind reading without barrel life being a concern, and just loading and shooting. But the 223 vs 308 debate is hard. I'll have a rifle in 308 that will be a full custom, and then a rebarreled 700 in 223. May just depend on the weather and the ranges for which one I shoot.
I'll have to look into the guys you mentioned NLR WY. Thanks for the information.

 

[308pirate]

The original intent was to allow LE/MIL guys to use work guns to compete.

How many are doing just that? None, I bet.

"intent" is what stagnates sports and turn their rulebooks into a shitshow.

 

[Krazy Korean]

@308pirate I would love to see them separate the class by more than just calibers and speed. Gear restriction, weight limits, trigger weights, etc. It will never happen but I think it'd be fun to try and solve an entire match with a bipod and only one bag. Im trying to get there now, and im lightening my rifle for training as well...but not for matches yet.

 

[NLR WY]

I've been in several matches that are limited (even open class) to 1 bag and bipods. They are out there. Personally, I hate tri-pods, never want to use them unless forced to.