Thinking about Moving to the Geissele National Match

Centuriator

Centuriator

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#1
I've been shooting my LMT MWS .308 for a few months now with the Geissele SSA-E trigger in it and while it is a great trigger, I do miss the ultra light trigger of my bolt actions and am thinking of moving over to the High-Speed National Match system, which gives me options for the lightest possible second stage pull., the SSA-E says it is a 1.5 pull on the second stage, but it sure feels heavier than that to me.

I would like to hear from anyone who has experience with the Geissele National Match and who is running it in its lightest configuration on the second stage.

Thanks for any input you might have to offer.

Notes:

Service Rifle
1st Stage - 3.2-5lb.
2nd Stage - 0.5-1.5lb.
Total weight - 4.5 lbs. Minimum

DMR
1st Stage - 2.5-3.6lbs.
2nd Stage - 0.5-1.5lbs.
Total weight - 3.0-5.1 lbs.

Match Rifle
1st Stage - 1.5-2.5lbs.
2nd Stage - 6.0- 4 oz.
Total weight - 1.9-3.4 lbs.
 
#2
I had one that I ran in a MWS, a Larue OBR, and several other AR platform rifles. It was a fantastic trigger. I made the mistake of letting it go in a MK12 I sold a couple years ago. It's by far the best AR trigger I've ever used. It can be adjusted to be much lighter than then SSA-E and has a more crisp second stage break. I currently have a slew of AR triggers including Timney and Trigger Tech 2-stages and nothing compares to the Hi-Speed NM, in my opinion. Also, I ran mine set at around 2.0 # first stage and 1.0 # second stage. After shooing the HS NM, the SSA-E feels like crap.
 
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#3
I’m also running the SSA-E and have shot a couple guys rifles with the NM trigger. Definitely should have gone with the NM. This is for a precision heavy AR. The SSA-E is plenty good for run and gun AR IMO.
 
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#4
dirthead1 said:
I had one that I ran in a MWS, a Larue OBR, and several other AR platform rifles. It was a fantastic trigger. I made the mistake of letting it go in a MK12 I sold a couple years ago. It's by far the best AR trigger I've ever used. It can be adjusted to be much lighter than then SSA-E and has a more crisp second stage break. I currently have a slew of AR triggers including Timney and Trigger Tech 2-stages and nothing compares to the Hi-Speed NM, in my opinion. Also, I ran mine set at around 2.0 # first stage and 1.0 # second stage. After shooing the HS NM, the SSA-E feels like crap.
Click to expand...


Just what I was hopeful to hear. I'm not super impressed with the crispness of the SSA-E break, no matter how slowly I most from first to second stage. I've used a lot of impressive triggers in my bolt guns, so I guess I'm spoiled, but I'm looking for something closer that "glass rod break" experience in my .308 AR.
 
#6
lash said:
I’m also running the SSA-E and have shot a couple guys rifles with the NM trigger. Definitely should have gone with the NM. This is for a precision heavy AR. The SSA-E is plenty good for run and gun AR IMO.
Click to expand...
^exactly this. NM is night and day v other Gisselle's.

For me it's $87 larues which are real nice in the run and guns and budget builds.
NMs in long range /super precision guns.

Oh and if you shoot suppressed a trigger douche and lube job now and then is a good idea. My NM in my EDC rifle was dirtier than I thought. It was like a new trigger after a quick clean and lube.
 
#9
bigjake83 said:
The NM was a exceptional trigger 10 years ago, but there are far better options in that price range, also the LaRue MBT is just as good as the SSA-E at less then half the price.
Click to expand...


Need facts here. Documentation. Verifiable proof. Reviews, etc. I'd like, at least, to hear about your personal experience with both triggers. Thanks.

And, apparently, you did not bother even to read my post. I'm not interested in a SSA-E style trigger.
 
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#11
Just to expand my original response a little further. I've had a lot of rifles, as most of us here have. I've use TT (special. primary, AR primary), Timney (510, CE, 700 2 stage, AR 2 stage), tuned Remington 700, Geissele SSA-E, HS NM, LMT 2-stage, and a tuned AI 2 stage on my AIAX. I have never pulled a trigger that felt better than the Hi-Speed NM. If I could replicate that trigger in every bolt and SA rifle I ever own in the future, it would be that trigger. IMHO, it's perfection. Granted, trigger feel is a personal preference, and some prefer one trigger while others may prefer another, but to me, it's the best.
 
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#12
bigjake83 said:
The NM was a exceptional trigger 10 years ago, but there are far better options in that price range, also the LaRue MBT is just as good as the SSA-E at less then half the price.
Click to expand...
FFE30D30-BFB5-4968-BFB1-621E10912FBB.jpeg
 
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#13
I just recently put a NM in my long range 223 gas gun. I’m getting used to it and tuning it as well to see how i really like it. So far it seems good but I do miss my AR Gold triggers. I have my AR Goods down to sub 2 pounds on all my other rifles including my AR10. It’s hard to beat. I will report back when I have more time with the NM trigger
 
#15
Centuriator said:
Need facts here. Documentation. Verifiable proof. Reviews, etc. I'd like, at least, to hear about your personal experience with both triggers. Thanks.

And, apparently, you did not bother even to read my post. I'm not interested in a SSA-E style trigger.
Click to expand...

I actually wasn't answering your OP I was just making a blanket statement, But I'm here now so let's dive in.

I've had countless NM triggers, and like I said 10 years ago they were the shit, and they still are a good triggers but only if you know how to properly tune them. I don't have time to expound and all of that, I learned from from Bill himself, he's a pretty cool dude. Because the NM has a heavier first stage lighter second stage I found myself making mistakes if the trigger was getting dirty and gritty, I would accidentally pull through the second stage, also a heavy recoiling rifle like a large frame AR can induce that as well to a person who isn't well versed with the NM and obviously OP you're not cuz you're asking us questions on it so that would be my cautionary advice to you.

Now in the $300 price range of precision triggers I would recommend a AR Gold or a Triggertech AR diomond, they function oppositely of the NM. The above triggers have a light first stage heavier second stage like a good 1911. When I'm on scope I prefer to have the lighter first stage and then come to a crisp firm wall at the second stage. They also have far better reset and way less overtravel.

And since the ssa-e was brought up and is a $190 trigger on a good day I just wanted to say that the LaRue MBT is just as good at less than half the price.

Jake.
 
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#16
bigjake83 said:
I actually wasn't answering your OP I was just making a blanket statement, But I'm here now so let's dive in.

I've had countless NM triggers, and like I said 10 years ago they were the shit, and they still are a good triggers but only if you know how to properly tune them. I don't have time to expound and all of that, I learned from from Bill himself, he's a pretty cool dude. Because the NM has a heavier first stage lighter second stage I found myself making mistakes if the trigger was getting dirty and gritty, I would accidentally pull through the second stage, also a heavy recoiling rifle like a large frame AR can induce that as well to a person who isn't well versed with the NM and obviously OP you're not cuz you're asking us questions on it so that would be my cautionary advice to you.

Now in the $300 price range of precision triggers I would recommend a AR Gold or a Triggertech AR diomond, they function oppositely of the NM. The above triggers have a light first stage heavier second stage like a good 1911. When I'm on scope I prefer to have the lighter first stage and then come to a crisp firm wall at the second stage. They also have far better reset and way less overtravel.

And since the ssa-e was brought up and is a $190 trigger on a good day I just wanted to say that the LaRue MBT is just as good at less than half the price.

Jake.
Click to expand...
Okay, thanks. Good info. Now please do me a favor and tell me the differences between the AR Gold and the TT AR Diamond, in your opinion.
 
#17
FWIW AR Gold without the comparison has a little side slop in it. I actually appreciate the wider tolerance but it took a minute to get used to. It reminds me of an old school electro paintball gun trigger, really hard to get it to bind at all when you're getting on it but still snappy at the break.
 
#18
I dunno.

All 15,000+ cycles of my HSNM have been pretty goddamn productive.

3 to 1,000 yards. Coyotes and driving sleet. Badges, lapel pins, and fake walnut. Championships. Records. Countless hours of bloody shouldered dryfire proving to my brain that it will always break the same.

Same trigger convinced some very (very) high level shooters that maybe they could take a look into equipping their rifles with something from Bill. Did, too.

Mine is about the same 4.8 lbs it was when I got it. Same pins, same springs.

For a precision AR, it’s THE trigger for a reason.

It is not the only one, but it is a good enough trigger to teach a man a great deal about himself.
 
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#19
lash said:
Okay, thanks. Good info. Now please do me a favor and tell me the differences between the AR Gold and the TT AR Diamond, in your opinion.
Click to expand...

You're Killin me Smalls....

I don't know what the fuck Cheyenne Bodie is smoking but my AR Gold triggers don't feel like an electro paintball gun trigger.....lol

IMO the TT AR Diamond feels better and is easier to adjust, also prefer the TT flat trigger shoe.

These are all just personal opinions and recommendations people, if you want a NM go for it. Nobody is trying to piss in anybody's Cheerios here.
 
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#21
bigjake83 said:
You're Killin me Smalls....

I don't know what the fuck Cheyenne Bodie is smoking but my AR Gold triggers don't feel like an electro paintball gun trigger.....lol

IMO the TT AR Diamond feels better and is easier to adjust, also prefer the TT flat trigger shoe.

These are all just personal opinions and recommendations people, if you want a NM go for it. Nobody is trying to piss in anybody's Cheerios here.
Click to expand...

Your AR Gold has side slop doesn't it, none front to back, soft reset? Reminds me of an AGD Emag I had, but maybe I had a defective AR Gold.
 
#22
bigjake83 said:
You're Killin me Smalls....

I don't know what the fuck Cheyenne Bodie is smoking but my AR Gold triggers don't feel like an electro paintball gun trigger.....lol

IMO the TT AR Diamond feels better and is easier to adjust, also prefer the TT flat trigger shoe.

These are all just personal opinions and recommendations people, if you want a NM go for it. Nobody is trying to piss in anybody's Cheerios here.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your opinion. Appreciate it.
 
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#24
bigjake83 said:
I actually wasn't answering your OP I was just making a blanket statement, But I'm here now so let's dive in.

I've had countless NM triggers, and like I said 10 years ago they were the shit, and they still are a good triggers but only if you know how to properly tune them. I don't have time to expound and all of that, I learned from from Bill himself, he's a pretty cool dude. Because the NM has a heavier first stage lighter second stage I found myself making mistakes if the trigger was getting dirty and gritty, I would accidentally pull through the second stage, also a heavy recoiling rifle like a large frame AR can induce that as well to a person who isn't well versed with the NM and obviously OP you're not cuz you're asking us questions on it so that would be my cautionary advice to you.

Now in the $300 price range of precision triggers I would recommend a AR Gold or a Triggertech AR diomond, they function oppositely of the NM. The above triggers have a light first stage heavier second stage like a good 1911. When I'm on scope I prefer to have the lighter first stage and then come to a crisp firm wall at the second stage. They also have far better reset and way less overtravel.

And since the ssa-e was brought up and is a $190 trigger on a good day I just wanted to say that the LaRue MBT is just as good at less than half the price.

Jake.
Click to expand...

The ar gold is a single stage trigger like a 1911 vs the 2 stage of the high speed

its not that the second stage is lighter than the first the second stage is in addition to the first it allows you to have a safe trigger with effectively a 4 oz trigger pull

single stage triggers work differently the might be some take up which you may be perceiving as a first stage but its not functional like the first stage in a 2 stage trigger

as to the pull through issue you experience with the NM i can relate to that i bought my hi speed with all three spring sets and i did find the NM second stage to be a little light for my taste so i put in the dmr second stage allowing me to have a very light first with a pretty light second idk it just felt better for me

the hi speed trigger is the standard by which i judge other triggers and some stuff amazing for the money (larue mbt-2s) or is better for high speed snap shooting (ke arms slt-1) but for a precision rifle the national match (dmr second for me) is unbeatable it resides in my mk12 build and at 600 i can get 3 in the air on target before the first one hits steel or slowly put 5 inside a dime off the bench
 
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#25
Have no experience with the Geissele National Match trigger, but if you dont mind a single stage trigger and you want a super light pull a timney calvin elite is hard to beat.
 
#26
mongoosesnipe said:
at 600 i can get 3 in the air on target before the first one hits steel or slowly put 5 inside a dime off the bench
Click to expand...

Is this a barn door you're shooting at? How many MOA are you achieving by cranking off three shots at 600m in under a second? I need more data and video before I'm willing to believe such a fantastical claim unless your target is a friggin' bus...

With that out of the way, I've tried the Larue MBT-2S, Geissele SSA-E, HSNM, TT Competitive, and RRA 2-stage. The HSNM was my favorite unless I was trying to squeeze every bit of accuracy I could out of the rifle at the bench. The TT had too short and light of a first stage, though it was very crisp with a short reset. The RRA was gritty, but better than a regular ol' milspec (it was the first "match" 2-stage trigger I tried, way back in the day). The MBT-2S is my favorite trigger for my carbines, and I wouldn't hesitate at all to use it in a budget precision build, but the SSA-E is a bit smoother with a better reset. For the money, I'm more than happy with the MBT-2S, however, so I no longer have any SSA-E triggers.

But my precision AR is getting an HSNM installed shortly. Foolishly sold several throughout the years to try the new hotness, and I'm back because nothing beats it for my intended uses, IMO.
 
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#28
Basher said:
Is this a barn door you're shooting at? How many MOA are you achieving by cranking off three shots at 600m in under a second? I need more data and video before I'm willing to believe such a fantastical claim unless your target is a friggin' bus...
Click to expand...

it was the 599y at the mtc shooting prone on a calm day with a 12 pound 556 with a muzzle break on a full size ipsc steel so i was hitting less than 3 moa the gun shoots right around half moa normally, when rested firmly the gun doesn't move under recoil i was playing around at the end of and extended long range session i didn't take video but i have a feeling even if i did you wouldn't believe me so idk what to tell you the rig could also double tap 300y targets before the first bullet got there but thats probably equally unbelievable the 300y yard targets were pairs but i couldn't do a shot on each before first bullet struck, what can i say i
 
#32
rpoL98 said:
just curious, 20" barrel? what kind of barrel profile? 12 lbs. that's pretty heavy for a 5.56. where's all that weight?
Click to expand...
Lead, for one.

My Service Rifles have all been between 15 and 17 pounds.

Solid steel float tubes, 1.00” unfluted barrels under the guards, .750 from there to the muzzle, 20” tubes.

Add a lead cuff under the float tube, fill the buttstock (also full size A2) with a lead wedge, use a BobSled, and drop 30+ oz of scope and mounts...

...and they become roughly like holding a cinderblock.

12 lb would be a lightened version...about like an original HBAR.
 
#33
natdscott said:
Lead, for one.

My Service Rifles have all been between 15 and 17 pounds.

Solid steel float tubes, 1.00” unfluted barrels under the guards, .750 from there to the muzzle, 20” tubes.

Add a lead cuff under the float tube, fill the buttstock (also full size A2) with a lead wedge, use a BobSled, and drop 30+ oz of scope and mounts...

...and they become roughly like holding a cinderblock.

12 lb would be a lightened version...about like an original HBAR.
Click to expand...
wow, with that kind of weight, might as well put wheels on it to move it into position! neat! (y)
 
#34
rpoL98 said:
wow, with that kind of weight, might as well put wheels on it to move it into position! neat! (y)
Click to expand...
Well. Neat is one word. lol

They sure shoot well as far as precision. I take some of the crap off for field work at home, but they’re still an HBAR, basically. Wouldn’t want to try to drive them very quickly in transition, but an AR that can keep it’s rounds inside about half or 5/8 MOA at 300 is an AR I can find a place for in the safe.

Spendy little bitches though.
 
#35
mongoosesnipe said:
it was the 599y at the mtc shooting prone on a calm day with a 12 pound 556 with a muzzle break on a full size ipsc steel so i was hitting less than 3 moa the gun shoots right around half moa normally, when rested firmly the gun doesn't move under recoil i was playing around at the end of and extended long range session i didn't take video but i have a feeling even if i did you wouldn't believe me so idk what to tell you the rig could also double tap 300y targets before the first bullet got there but thats probably equally unbelievable the 300y yard targets were pairs but i couldn't do a shot on each before first bullet struck, what can i say i
Click to expand...

First off, please learn to use punctuation. That was a painful “paragraph” to read.

Second, even at 12lbs, that rifle better be in a vise or heavily sandbagged. For you to pull a trigger three times in under a second and hit less than a 3MOA target at 600y is something I’m not prepared to believe unless you have the aforementioned video, or your name is Jerry Miculek. For you to pull an AR trigger that many times and get accurate hits at 600y is hogwash unless it’s vised. I mean, guys who shoot for a living can manage accurate .2 splits with a carbine, but they’re working at “social” distances, not at 600y. So yeah, I’m not buying it without video.
 
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#36
Basher said:
First off, please learn to use punctuation. That was a painful “paragraph” to read.

Second, even at 12lbs, that rifle better be in a vise or heavily sandbagged. For you to pull a trigger three times in under a second and hit less than a 3MOA target at 600y is something I’m not prepared to believe unless you have the aforementioned video, or your name is Jerry Miculek. For you to pull an AR trigger that many times and get accurate hits at 600y is hogwash unless it’s vised. I mean, guys who shoot for a living can manage accurate .2 splits with a carbine, but they’re working at “social” distances, not at 600y. So yeah, I’m not buying it without video.
Click to expand...

is 18.5 pounds enough bag https://www.midwayusa.com/product/101889498?pid=536714 probably not heavy enough would need to be 500# bag

additionally in order to achieve this you only need .45 second splits the clock starts when the first bullet leaves the muzzle and the time of flight 0.93 seconds if i could run 0.2 splits at that range it 0.2 splits at that range it would be 5 in the air, that said my static splits at social distance are around 0.16

rpoL98 said:
just curious, 20" barrel? what kind of barrel profile? 12 lbs. that's pretty heavy for a 5.56. where's all that weight?
Click to expand...
h-bar barrel profile and a gen 1 magpul prs stock make up most of the "extra weight" with an optic and sturdy mount its not hard to get the rest of the way to 12#
 
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#39
I have 2 Aero M5 AR-10's (sofar). I swap uppers a lot. used to have the SSA-E in both of the lowers, but after putting the HS-NM in one of them, had to get another one for the 2nd M5. set up in the Match config. I purchased them when they're on sale, they are pricey, I think the first one was BF, the 2nd was for 4th of July. I was reading about Lock Time, which led me to try one out.
 
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#44
I think of it mostly in relation to movers. No wind, 3 mph mover, software tells me I need to hold 2 mils to hit it. My lock time is the time between my eye seeing the mover hit the 2 mil mark, and my brain sending the 'pull the trigger' command to my finger, and it actually happening. I don't know objectively if it equates to much, but I always seem to need to hold a little more than calculated.
 
#45
CavScout85 said:
I think of it mostly in relation to movers. No wind, 3 mph mover, software tells me I need to hold 2 mils to hit it. My lock time is the time between my eye seeing the mover hit the 2 mil mark, and my brain sending the 'pull the trigger' command to my finger, and it actually happening. I don't know objectively if it equates to much, but I always seem to need to hold a little more than calculated.
Click to expand...

Um...what?
 
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#46
Really surprised there isn't more recommendations for drop in units in this thread...

I know it's a scary new world, but they really do remove a lot of the variables. Like having the physical relationship between hammer and sear dependent on the pin locations in your lower (do you even know if your pin locations are within spec?). You're also no longer relying on the pins as friction pivot points. The list goes on, but all of it leads to more consistent pull weights, crisper breaks and often shorter resets.

IMO, if the old standard Timney bolt gun trigger from 10yrs ago is no longer good enough for your precision bolt gun than Giessele's aren't good enough for your precision AR.
 
#49
Hammer lock time is important because shit is moving after you pull the trigger. Shorter lock time, shorter time for stuff to move. Your lock time, the time from when your brain says pull the trigger to it actually happening is important for the same reason. Hammer lock time is measured in single digits milliseconds, human reaction times in the hundreds of milliseconds. I'm just saying that your reaction time plus hammer lock time equals more time for stuff to move.

Now back to talking about the Geisselle NM, of which I have one and like more than the SSA E. ?
 
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