Rifle Scopes What is this Forged carbon mount black magic??
- Thread starter Maurygold
- Start date
No thanks.
Edited to add: How long before you hear about cracked mounting feet or ring caps?
Edited to add: How long before you hear about cracked mounting feet or ring caps?
I’ll bet (big) money that these will fail but after the beta tester buyers find the flaws this will work out well.
If it's done by the same process that was made for Lamborghini then you've got some pretty stout very lightweight very durable material.
Go do a little research on forged Composites and it's actually quite interesting.
Was watching a documentary on the stuff about 10 years ago. If I remember right it's a little bit heavier than your the standard carbon fiber hand layup but it's stronger than titanium of the same dimensions.
One thing that stood out to me was how it sounded when it was struck. Regular carbon fiber still sounds basically like plastic this stuff rang like it was made of steel.
It will sell.
How many threads are there with guys trying to find the lightest components?
If it weighs 1/4 oz less...
It will sell.
How many threads are there with guys trying to find the lightest components?
If it weighs 1/4 oz less...
It will sell.
"Strong" is relative. I know this stuff is used as structural components in cars, but even the all-carbon wheels run steel inserts to handle the lug bolts. Forged carbon may be strong enough to tolerate the forces involved, but I suspect the super-focused clamping forces from the cross-bolts and cap screws will cause problems with a 100% carbon mount. Just because it doesn't crack/fail, doesn't mean it isn't deforming enough to be unusable for this application.
I have a 56mm objective, in 30mm height rings, with a Proof Comp Contour barrel, and I there’s lots of room...
I made a dumb comment. You’re right. I was looking at my AR setup when I wrote that.
I would not be surprised if we see fully composite mounts (other than threaded pieces) before too long, but I have no insight into this specific one.
From a materials standpoint, it is doable, but needs to be engineered correctly. I am not convinced carbon fiber is the material I'd go with, but I am only peripherally involved with stuff like this, so it may be the right choice.
ILya
From a materials standpoint, it is doable, but needs to be engineered correctly. I am not convinced carbon fiber is the material I'd go with, but I am only peripherally involved with stuff like this, so it may be the right choice.
ILya
Likely never, there's very little to gain to have a carbon fiber tube over an aluminum one, the main tube doesn't comprise that much of the overall weight of the scope.
A lot of similar reactions to when Glocks first came out........ just saying.
Forging is a very specific process. You can't forge carbon fiber.
PT Barnum would be proud.
ETA: I don't think there's anything wrong with using carbon fiber to make scope rings. But as a manufacturing engineer for over 25 years, I need to be convinced that you can forge (heat the piss out of it and smash it to shape with repeated blows from a die in a hammer press) carbon fiber.
PT Barnum would be proud.
ETA: I don't think there's anything wrong with using carbon fiber to make scope rings. But as a manufacturing engineer for over 25 years, I need to be convinced that you can forge (heat the piss out of it and smash it to shape with repeated blows from a die in a hammer press) carbon fiber.
This is not a forging. It's much closer to the sintering process used with powdered metal.
They can call a turd a diamond, but it's still a turd.
Next............
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There are other composites that could work, but I really do not understand what forging has to do with it. The big potential advantage of composites is 3d-printing. You can do all sorts of interesting shapes and structures that way and introduce small design variations with minimal added cost.
In principle, you can 3d print with metal as well, but it is still significantly more expensive and the surface finish needs a lot of work. If you 3d print out of aluminum, you will still need to send it in for anodizing, etc.
With composites, you can probably have a product essentially ready to go: add the threaded hardware and you are good.
However, now you can make height and ring spacing variations, for example, much more easily with barely any added cost.
ILya
3d printing of plastic is not ready for prime time when it comes to structural strength unless something new had happened recently.
Anyhow the ability of 3d printing to makes complex shapes is not an advantage when it comes to external features. Many traditional manufacturing processes can match it when it comes to external shapes.
Where additive manufacturing shines is in making complex internal features, some of which are impossible any other way.
I need to learn more about this carbon fiber "forging" process but from what I already know I can tell you it's not a forging.
I think "forged" is just a amplifier of the process. Composites and synthetic materials will eventually completely replace steel, titanium, aluminum, etc. as they mature. This is just a super light and strong process of synthetic material. Soon our homes and virtually everything will be built of synthetics.
VooDoo
VooDoo
Sintering is bringing a slurry of metals to a predetermined temperature in order to make the “outside” surface to become porous/sticky, not fully melted into a uniform liquid.
When the materials become heated and then compressed and “infuse” each other.
Compression eliminates voids making the final material more dense and because of the surface lock-key bond the material keeps its compressed shape.
Forged carbon fiber is tailings /confetti of carbon fiber strands.
that is mixed with epoxy resin and then placed in a mold. That mold is heated and compressed.
Which differs from the “usual” carbon fiber sheets with the “X” pattern you see on race cars.
while you can purchase pre-preg carbon fiber sheets (storage is a pain) most hand laid carbon fiber parts are sheets placed in a mold and then resin is applied/rolled on the surface.
that mold is the wrapped in a vacuum, during the suction process the air is removed and the resin impregnated the carbon fiber sheet.
When the materials become heated and then compressed and “infuse” each other.
Compression eliminates voids making the final material more dense and because of the surface lock-key bond the material keeps its compressed shape.
Forged carbon fiber is tailings /confetti of carbon fiber strands.
that is mixed with epoxy resin and then placed in a mold. That mold is heated and compressed.
Which differs from the “usual” carbon fiber sheets with the “X” pattern you see on race cars.
while you can purchase pre-preg carbon fiber sheets (storage is a pain) most hand laid carbon fiber parts are sheets placed in a mold and then resin is applied/rolled on the surface.
that mold is the wrapped in a vacuum, during the suction process the air is removed and the resin impregnated the carbon fiber sheet.
Went to go buy one to play with, then got sticker shock.
$400 is a little much just to save some weight in an area that is already lightweight.
$400 is a little much just to save some weight in an area that is already lightweight.
It is also a little to much money for me to take a risk on it. If it was a proven product like the spuhr, which I own, the price tag is acceptable. Someone pony up the money and test one for us! (looking at you youtubers)
This process is legit.
I've spent some time experimenting with a group of folks out of the University of Washington that are sponsored by Boeing and Audi (Lamborghini, Bugatti). When done correctly, there are no problems like with traditional composite layups. The aerospace ad automotive parts I was shown were stronger than their alloy equivalents and much lighter... Also less prone to catastrophic failure. All of the parts resonate when thumped.
It's interesting stuff
I've spent some time experimenting with a group of folks out of the University of Washington that are sponsored by Boeing and Audi (Lamborghini, Bugatti). When done correctly, there are no problems like with traditional composite layups. The aerospace ad automotive parts I was shown were stronger than their alloy equivalents and much lighter... Also less prone to catastrophic failure. All of the parts resonate when thumped.
It's interesting stuff
Aerospace prepreg is impressive, don't know how these are made but carbon can be made very strong and durable.
I’m tempted to buy one, I’ve got a 6.5 Grendel AR that is done with a bunch of CF parts (Barrel, handguard, buffer tube, stock & grip)...mostly for aesthetic reasons, but I do like how light weight the parts are. This would top it out nicely, but I’d have a very hard time replacing a Spuhr with an unproven product.
I have the same type of build, but it's price point is hard to swallow right now.
I'd like to find out who's making the scope mount for them. Is it somebody well-versed in the process? How long have they been making forged composites?
It’s seems like overkill for a hunting rig, and with guys buying extra weight to make guns heavier, I just don’t get it. I suppose on an AR go fast platform it might be a decent idea.
Black Collar Arms website says made by Mcvick, designed by them. Go to mcvick website a little more info there.
exactly/just about..
as you could imagine its a little more controlled and such but the same idea
thats one of the reasons it was heavier in the beginning, getting the slurry and thread diameter/length is difficult.
for making a scope mount not so much but machine a bracket which has to weight and X-ray the same for QC purposes, it was a little harder than expected
If the shit is solid then I'd rather have a set of receivers made from it instead. Always in search of the elusive 3lb. AR...
There is a guy in Tennessee (99% sure of State)
He hold the patent for resin/carbon AR receivers.
His patent is actually for the inlet/attachment of metal for guide rails and such.
I spoke to him approx a year ago about using his material for a full length chassis/stock.
Mold price was expensive as expected but the deformation after cooling still needed to be touched up because of the large pieces. He was very strait forward about what could and could not be expected.
If I was touching it several times, it’s not worth it yet.
I was impressed with his knowledge which isn’t something I say often. A lot of engineer types don’t have the hands and vice versus.
There was another company out if CO I think, but he didn’t make his own parts. Smelt his BS after being in the phone for 2 min.
He hold the patent for resin/carbon AR receivers.
His patent is actually for the inlet/attachment of metal for guide rails and such.
I spoke to him approx a year ago about using his material for a full length chassis/stock.
Mold price was expensive as expected but the deformation after cooling still needed to be touched up because of the large pieces. He was very strait forward about what could and could not be expected.
If I was touching it several times, it’s not worth it yet.
I was impressed with his knowledge which isn’t something I say often. A lot of engineer types don’t have the hands and vice versus.
There was another company out if CO I think, but he didn’t make his own parts. Smelt his BS after being in the phone for 2 min.
Scope Mounts
Scope mounts made from forged carbon fiber. 17-4 stainless & grade 5 Ti hardware.
mcvick.net
More pix and info. here.
VooDoo
Hi,
Last year I visited the Italian shop that does all of the Bugatti carbon fiber; they were working on carbon barrel sleeve and suppressor sleeve that was machined instead of wrapped.
The "machinable" carbon fiber industry is advancing in leaps and bounds outside of the firearms industry. With processes and technology some of the other industries are using there will be no reason to have a carbon fiber wrapped barrel in the next 3 years.
The how I was least concerned with as I am only interested in the end user utilization of the processes and technology.
The concept of something like the crazy weight lose for a machined carbon fiber barrel sleeve on the big shit like the warthog cannon without having to be concerned of the severe heat melting the resin and unwrapping the carbon fiber is a huge plus.
Now scale that done to our industry utilization of having your favorite barrel manufacturer turn your barrel to a specific contour and then ordering your machined carbon fiber barrel sleeve that you just press fit onto your barrel is also very interesting.
Sincerely,
Theis
Last year I visited the Italian shop that does all of the Bugatti carbon fiber; they were working on carbon barrel sleeve and suppressor sleeve that was machined instead of wrapped.
The "machinable" carbon fiber industry is advancing in leaps and bounds outside of the firearms industry. With processes and technology some of the other industries are using there will be no reason to have a carbon fiber wrapped barrel in the next 3 years.
The how I was least concerned with as I am only interested in the end user utilization of the processes and technology.
The concept of something like the crazy weight lose for a machined carbon fiber barrel sleeve on the big shit like the warthog cannon without having to be concerned of the severe heat melting the resin and unwrapping the carbon fiber is a huge plus.
Now scale that done to our industry utilization of having your favorite barrel manufacturer turn your barrel to a specific contour and then ordering your machined carbon fiber barrel sleeve that you just press fit onto your barrel is also very interesting.
Sincerely,
Theis
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Many shops are already machining composites to tight tolerances it's nothing really new. Assuming the material was processed well, only thing is you need to know what cutters and feeds/speeds to prevent the material from fracturing. Makes me curious what this Italian shop's "secret sauce" was that they were working on.
Looking at it this forged composite just looks like compression molded carbon. Possibly they're tightly controlling the fiber/resin ratio and that's the trick?
Well that answered the thread question for me. Steel inserts molded in - check. I'm curious how well the CF grips a scope tube & if it will leave marks.Scope Mounts
Scope mounts made from forged carbon fiber. 17-4 stainless & grade 5 Ti hardware.
More pix and info. here.
VooDoo
Some one buy one of the blems for $225 and report back.
If they had 35mm I'd have bit on the blem, but I just bought more ammo & a 34mm Spuhr mount.
I would be wary. Is mount weight such a critical factor that is worth experimenting with it?
The manufacturing method would be interesting. Probably more of a press or mould process. Looks like it has mould lines all over it.
The manufacturing method would be interesting. Probably more of a press or mould process. Looks like it has mould lines all over it.
Hi,
For those that have actually not read the finer details, lol...
Sincerely,
Theis
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Hand laid in CNC cut precision molds and forged to what you see here.
At 5.29oz(30mm model) you get all weight savings with no sacrifices.
Using custom 17-4 stainless inserts (anchored in the base) and #8-36 alloy steel screws and mix that with almost no thermal expansion (6x less than aluminum) you can go from 0 degree environment to 100 degree or vice versa and know this mount will be exactly the same in any condition.
Alloy steel #10-32 screws and Allen nuts and two recoil lugs keeps the base securely planted.
The one piece body mixed with the forged carbon fiber creates the most rigid mount on the market. Nobody even comes close.
Because this is a very rigid material follow the special torque instructions in the box to prevent any damage to your new mount.
Each mount is hand inspected and tested before it leaves. Quality and knowing that I provided you with the best possible product is my goal.
For those that have actually not read the finer details, lol...
Sincerely,
Theis
----------
Hand laid in CNC cut precision molds and forged to what you see here.
At 5.29oz(30mm model) you get all weight savings with no sacrifices.
Using custom 17-4 stainless inserts (anchored in the base) and #8-36 alloy steel screws and mix that with almost no thermal expansion (6x less than aluminum) you can go from 0 degree environment to 100 degree or vice versa and know this mount will be exactly the same in any condition.
Alloy steel #10-32 screws and Allen nuts and two recoil lugs keeps the base securely planted.
The one piece body mixed with the forged carbon fiber creates the most rigid mount on the market. Nobody even comes close.
Because this is a very rigid material follow the special torque instructions in the box to prevent any damage to your new mount.
Each mount is hand inspected and tested before it leaves. Quality and knowing that I provided you with the best possible product is my goal.
I see this stuff as prototype stuff and a glimpse into what will come in a few years. Those with money and wanting cool new stuff might want to experiment...I'm a Poor so I have to buy what is time tested and vetted. But this shit like electric cars, airplanes, Electric Catamarans, and 3D printed houses is the next generation of cool stuff.
Love to be able to buy it and support it but, alas, I'm a Poor.
VooDoo
Love to be able to buy it and support it but, alas, I'm a Poor.
VooDoo
We're well beyond prototype stage now. Lamborghini has been using this technology in their production vehicles for a couple of years.
Like I can afford a Lamborghini....Or anyone but the .01%. Love to support it. Can't afford it.
VooDoo
VooDoo
