.452" in a 45ACP?

Switchblade

Switchblade

muf kin poser
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 21, 2003
5,036
592
A Little South of Bardstown down yonder in them th
#1
So here I was looking at the new G&A and I see this really neat looking, hot performing bullet by Hornady in the Reloading Section where the caliber was the 7.62x39. The bullet was a nice short, red tipped affair that showed really good expansion in all calibers down to sub 1k velocities. It got me thinking...
The bullet is also made in .451 and .452 diameters for things like the 45-70, 45 Colt etc. Then I had to take out an old issue on the .357Sig. Same type of bullet in the 357Sig too! These bullets were at first made for use in rifles and carbines with tube style magazines. Smaller sizes have been used in a couple smaller caliber handgun rounds and a few are made in really short(same length as the 45ACP ashtrays) versions.

Now the questions that are begging to be answered!
1) Can these killer bullets be used in a 45ACP which typically uses the .451" bullet?
2) Will this bullet allow for velocities around 1050fps in a 45ACP case?
Hornady FTX
bullets-ftx-pkg.jpg


bullets-lever-ftx-cutaway.jpg


45215.jpg


http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.452-200-gr-FTX/

Since these bullets are expanding very well at velocities from 800fps to 1300fps I really have to figure out if they can be reloaded in 45ACP. Just think about what they will penetrate for a few seconds. Think about the spitzer type .357Sig. Think about the new Knight 6mm x 40 using basically the same bullet. All that is needed is velocity around 1100fps or so at 10'. This seems quite doable in the 45 and the prospect of a really bad ass round for the 45 is way too much to NOT think about!

I figure if a .451" bullet works in a .45 if it's a JHP, and a .452" bullet works if it's lead, then a slight bit of firelapping will relieve any pressure jump with the .452" FTX.
Am I way off here or on track? I figure maybe someone has looked at this and already tried it.
 
#2
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

I have shot hundreds of my hand cast bullets sized .453 through my Kimber Custom (LOW serial number...when they were still a top shelf 1911) with no issues and phenomenal accuracy. Of course they're lead and swage down easily, but they are heavy (260 grain), long suckers with lots of bearing surface, and I have never had any issues with weird pressure or anything else.

I think the main factor with these Hornadys is how thick/stiff the jacket is. With expansion thresholds in the 800 fps range, I expect the jacket is very ductile and/or thin. Just for comparison's sake, Sierra's 45 auto bullets are .4515", even the heavily jacketed FMJs, so you're only talking <span style="font-style: italic">5 ten thousandths of an inch</span> difference from a respected bullet-maker's regular bullets for your pistol. A light jacket should swage down easily and keep pressure jump tolerable.

I'd recommend slugging your barrel and chamber with .454 muzzleloader balls and find out what your dimensions are. As long as your grooves are no more than .001" under bullet diameter, I doubt you'll see any problems whatsoever as long as you start at the bottom of the load data. Of course this assumes your chamber will handle the larger diameter cartridge. Remember that this bullet will have to be seated a little deeper in the case to maintain magazine length, so in certain makes of cases it may bulge a bit.

And unless slugging reveals a "choke" in your barrel, firelapping probably won't gain you anything, although I have personally never seen a firearm <span style="font-style: italic">hurt</span> by proper firelapping. (Of course there was one guy who decided coarse valve-lapping compound was a cheap alternative to the lab grade stuff and...well I can't go on. Suffice it to say a very nice pre-64 Winny Super Grade was never the same.
frown.gif
)

I think the best you could hope for velocity-wise is somewhere between 1000 and 1020 fps. Longshot would likely be the best powder for speedy loads...it's amazing in my Ruger LCR.

Sorry I don't have any hard data for you, but if I were looking for a new bullet for my slabside, I'd give that FTX a spin. If you get a box and try 'em, be sure to post the results.

Have a great weekend!
 
#4
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

Switch,

I have to agree with the above post about slugging your barrel. Of all the 1911's I've owned several slugged .451" but 3 slugged at .452" and one was slugged at .453" When I was casting thousands of 230 grain 45 RN hard lead bullets a week, I would sometimes clean out the furnace and cast a few of soft pure lead. Use something like that with a little oil on the barrel and a 3/8" wooden dowel and it will make the task a bit easier. Not that it's ever actually easy. But it will help.

Pm, email or call if you need to.
 
#5
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

Oh you know I will Vic! This is a back burner project since school starts hot and heavy next Thursday. I need to get my hands on one of the 200gr .452" FTX's, 1 230fmj in .451"/.452", and a 230JHP in either .451"/.452". I think the base comparison for actual length needs to be looked at to see if the FTX is the same length or 'no longer than' a basic standard 45 bullet. The reloaded round has to fit in the magazine, feed well, and do the basics before it can be considered worthy of the reputation of the 45.
After seeing the performance of these cool bullets in smaller calibers like the 357Sig, the idea of putting one into a 45 is just too much to ignore
 
#8
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...The bullet is also made in .451 and .452 diameters for things like the 45-70... </div></div>

Just FYI, the 45-70 runs .458" jacketed bullets. .460"-ish if it's cast lead.
 
#9
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

.001" over and jacketed. Might be a recipe for additional pressure. The 1911's partially supported chamber may not like it.

If I were to try such a round, I'd keep the powder choice on the fast side, the load on the low side, test fire it with a lanyard, and no magazine in the grip.

Greg
 
#10
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

This phenomena of large bullets working in a small bore without pressure spikes is documented in P.O. Ackley 1966 "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol 2" chapter 7
"additional pressure tests":
"..30 cal barrel pressure barrel was fitted to the test gun, but the neck and throat was enlarged to accept the 8mm bullet, with the bore remaining the standard 30 caliber. A Remington factory 30-06 cartridge with the 150 gr bullet had been tested and previously gave 57,300 psi, for a velocity of 3030 fps. The the bullets were pulled from two more Remington 150 grain cartridges and were replaced with 8mm 150 grain bullets. To everyone's surprise, although the velocity was rather erratic, these loads averaged 2901 fps, with a pressure of 40,700 psi."


------------
Then there is me.
I shoot .358" bullets in a .355" groove in 380, 9x19mm, and 9x23mm pistols.

I shoot .458" gr cast bullet in a .385" full choke of a .410 shotgun.

I have shot, or someone shot in my gun, a .355" 115 gr FMJ 9mm factory round in a 7.62x25mm pistol [.307" groove]. It did not work well, The jacket stayed in the chamber, and the Lead core went out the muzzle. I still have the jacket.

---------------
What does it all mean?
It is counter intuitive that large bullets can swage down into small bores without causing a pressure spike.

It is also counter intuitive that bullets pinched by the neck of a case that is pinched by the chamber can make such a huge pressure spike.
 
#11
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

Yes, I agree, there's a lot of counterintuitive stuff out there; but I also see the 1911 as a special case which may warrant additional caution.

Greg
 
#12
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

Am I wrong for thinking a series of fire lapping rounds would decrease pressures with the larger diameter bullet in the .45? If pressures are higher, proper fire lapping would remove enough material in the barrel to decrease pressures. Since many of the ' .451" ' bullets are actually .4515" this seems like a workable loading if it fits in the magazine and feeds well in a basic tuned 45
 
#13
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

I'm going to remain MOSTLY silent on this one. The way I think says that REMOVING METAL is the very last thing to do. I have seen several good RIFLE barrels turned to something less. And I have only seen one so-so RIFLE barrel improved by fire lapping. I have never tried it on a pistol. Nor do I actually know anyone first hand that has done it in a pistol barrel.
 
#14
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

I have a very tight fit Safari Arms Frame with a Springfield slide. I built th epistol originally for a friend who shot maybe 50 raounds through it, then traded it back to me for a Ruger P85 I had.
The 45 was looked at by Mac Scott, shot by Mac Scott, and worked on by his protege Doug MacDougall my old friend from grade and up school.
My goal is to make this either a serious fight stopper, or if it will work, change it to a 45 Super. If I do anything to change calibers for a pistol it will be done to any pistol I get in the future or have as to 1911's. One round to load and reload that way.
This thought on the Hornday .452" bullet is meant to explore the possibilities that this round has to mimic the behaviors a similiar bullet does in the .357Sig. If the Hornady bullet can work in the 45, and velocity can run about 1100fps or no lower than 1000fps with no issues, it should prove to be a kick ass load
 
#19
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

Hmmm... now you got me thinking. Just happen to have 98 Mauser in 45 ACP. Add some 45 Super Brass, a few of the 200gn Flex tips and push up the fps. Sounds like a good project next time I am home on leave.

And yes Greg, the lanyard method is tired and true. Should be just the ticket in this case, but expect that old 98 action will take a lot more than a 45 ACP/Super would reasonably throw at it.

Any thoughts on potential velocity target and a good slower powder for a 16" barrel?
 
#20
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

I called Starline about the 45acp +P brass and talked to the man.

He says +P brass is for hot loads in pistols with poor case support.

He says the 45 Super brass is for even hotter loads for pistols with good case support. He says it has some better heat treat.

He says that the 460 Rowland brass is the same as the 45 Super brass, but longer.


My experiments show that all brands of 45acp brass [including Starline 45 Super] fails [primer pocket gets loose] at the same point in a work up, except Starline +P, which has thicker walls, and thus less case capacity.

Joe D'Alessandro at realguns has different conclusions than me, and he usually knows what he is talking about.

So either we got different batches to cross section or one of us made a mistake.

1.jpg

I built this 45acp 11 years ago on a 1903 Turk Mauser, and it has served me will for high performance testing and shooting groups at 100 yards.
It has a Shilen .451" groove 1 in 16" twist unturned rifle blank.
The SAAMI minimum chamber is 0.4796" tapering down to 0.4744", but I have cut a tighter chamber: a straight 0.4690" for more accuracy.
 
#22
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

The initial thought is to make the 45 do what the 357Sig does to targets with the same style bullet. It will not work with a flat nose bullet. The spitzer styled tip does great things to certain materials to make them like butter. Just an experiment on 'hardened criminal' type stuff to see if the 45 can do what the 357Sig does if the same type of bullet is used
 
#25
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

Well frag, that kinda kills my idea to make a really bad ass bullet work in the .45. My thoughts were to not only get some kick ass velocity with a spitzer styled bullet, but make a ripping fast screamer that would put the old big/slow vs smal/fast to bed.
Hmmmm, maybe I'll have to invent a new caliber so I can do this. Use the Rowland case, give the barrel chamber solid support, and make one really bad ass .45 caliber pistol...a wildcat to be sure, but just think of the potential devastation this line of thinking has.
A longer case, spitzer styled bullet, with both knock down power, velocity, and the ability to drop a 'hardened' criminal with one round
 
#26
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SnkBit,it looks like you would have to completely cut off the exposed tip to get it to seat and taper crimp within the COL of the ACP round. I have no idea what that would do to the penetration and expansion characteristics of the bullet. </div></div>
.
Me thinks if you "took a lil off the top"..you would have your own homemade "Critical Defense" offering with a tougher jacket.
 
#28
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

Found these comments in the "Reviews" section of the the page that opens from the Midway USA link posted above:

Robert Parker of Salt Lake City, UT
Date posted: 3/24/2009

"I am not the worlds best shot and definitely not an expert re-loader either. I use my friends re-loader and he watches me close. I do know my guns though. I loaded these for my .45 acp with ramshot true blue and shot the tightest groups I have ever shot. Definitely the best ammo I have ever shot. At 25 yards I was inside of the bottom of a coffee cup and at 50 yards inside of a dollar bill. for me that is the best shooting I have ever done and have decided to stick with these loads cause that was the best group of the three. Overall great slugs, they group about 2 to 3 inches higher than the speer 200 grain hollow point."


John Anderson of Templeton, IA
Date posted: 1/19/2010

"Loaded these for my XD .45acp with Unique, CCI LP primers with a COAL of 1.50". They shoot great & the action cycles just fine with the Flex Tip."
 
#29
LOBO said:
Re: .452" in a 45ACP?

Found these comments in the "Reviews" section of the the page that opens from the Midway USA link posted above:

Robert Parker of Salt Lake City, UT
Date posted: 3/24/2009

"I am not the worlds best shot and definitely not an expert re-loader either. I use my friends re-loader and he watches me close. I do know my guns though. I loaded these for my .45 acp with ramshot true blue and shot the tightest groups I have ever shot. Definitely the best ammo I have ever shot. At 25 yards I was inside of the bottom of a coffee cup and at 50 yards inside of a dollar bill. for me that is the best shooting I have ever done and have decided to stick with these loads cause that was the best group of the three. Overall great slugs, they group about 2 to 3 inches higher than the speer 200 grain hollow point."


John Anderson of Templeton, IA
Date posted: 1/19/2010

"Loaded these for my XD .45acp with Unique, CCI LP primers with a COAL of 1.50". They shoot great & the action cycles just fine with the Flex Tip."
Click to expand...
Could you let me know the loads you used and if you measured any velocities registered? It will be greatly appreciated. I have about 1100 projectiles 45-200 HP that I bought in 2020 waiting to be used.
 
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