Gunsmithing Question about Salt Bath Nitride

[Fat Dark Earth]

I’m trying to find out if a custom action that has previously been completely coated with Cerakote and stripped via proper media blasting would be a candidate for SBN?
i’m not sure what the finish requirements would be for the process. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[kyzim311]

Short answer, yes. you just need to get the paint off and should be good to go.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Real answer is nobody can answer that for you except the action manufacturer and only after you give them the SBN specs and procedure sheet from the processor.

It could be an issue on multiple fronts...
From warranty voiding to actual alloy structural issues to liability issues...

SBN should be done by manufacturer themselves and not as an aftermarket "part".

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[iceng]

As pointed out above. It changes the chrystaine structure. Different metals react differently to this.

Surface finish is also a big factor here.

 

[MK20]

However, if the action is available in a nitrided form, it shouldnt be a problem to get it done.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

And SBN sucks, lol....
Plasma nitriding is the better process.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[308pirate]

Hi,

And SBN sucks, lol....
Plasma nitriding is the better process.

Sincerely,
Theis

Or just plain ol gas nitriding

 

[308pirate]

I’m trying to find out if a custom action that has previously been completely coated with Cerakote and stripped via proper media blasting would be a candidate for SBN?
i’m not sure what the finish requirements would be for the process. Any help would be appreciated.

Why do you want to send your action to a heat treater?

Do you understand the purpose of nitriding steel?

I'll give you some hints about what it isn't for: It isn't to add "lubricity" to steel. It isn't to add corrosion resisitance. It isn't to make steel black. It also sure as hell isn't a coating.

 

[308pirate]

However, if the action is available in a nitrided form, it shouldnt be a problem to get it done.

It would not be a problem IF the OEM is willing to tell you in detail the process specifications that they flow down to their heat treater.

If they won't say, then yes, playing amateur metellurgical engineer IS a problem.

 

[rady]

OK, I'll asked the dumb question here. What does it add in terms of functionality or protection? I see it advertised on various components of firearms at rather high prices and that's all I know about it.

 

[Steel head]

OK, I'll asked the dumb question here. What does it add in terms of functionality or protection? I see it advertised on various components of firearms at rather high prices and that's all I know about it.

The Benefits of Nitriding and Nitrocarburizing

These two similar heat treatment processes improve the surface qualities of a range of metal alloys.

www.machinedesign.com

 

[rady]

The Benefits of Nitriding and Nitrocarburizing

These two similar heat treatment processes improve the surface qualities of a range of metal alloys.

www.machinedesign.com

Thanks. Interesting read. Now I know why the $$.

 

[Steel head]

Thanks. Interesting read. Now I know why the $$.

I have a nitrided action, I’m quite happy with it.

 

[larryh128]

I have a nitrided action, I’m quite happy with it.

Me too, and all of the other nitrided cutters I've used for years. I have never seen anything nitrided ever rust. But it sure as hell lasts a long time. I run a bunch of nitrided AR barrels and I really don't look at 1 anymore that isn't. Nitrided actions are great.

 

[Downtown]

Nighthawk sells a customized Series 70 Colt that is advertised as having a "smoked nitride finish". Is that what is being discussed here?

 

[308pirate]

Nighthawk sells a customized Series 70 Colt that is advertised as having a "smoked nitride finish". Is that what is being discussed here?

Probably not.

Who the fuck knows what is it that they call "smoke nitride"

 

[Fat Dark Earth]

Why do you want to send your action to a heat treater?

Do you understand the purpose of nitriding steel?

I'll give you some hints about what it isn't for: It isn't to add "lubricity" to steel. It isn't to add corrosion resisitance. It isn't to make steel black.

Did my original question warrant a condescending response?

Do you understand the purpose of my question?

I’m not an expert. Never claimed to be. I’m simply looking to get rid of the sticky mess that is the Cerakote job on my action and turn it into something that runs like my other Nitrided actions.

There are factors to this process that I admittedly do not understand.

I was simply asking if a stainless steel action that was previously Cerakoted and then media blasted, had the proper finish required for the nitride process.

 

[Fat Dark Earth]

Hi,

Real answer is nobody can answer that for you except the action manufacturer and only after you give them the SBN specs and procedure sheet from the processor.

It could be an issue on multiple fronts...
From warranty voiding to actual alloy structural issues to liability issues...

SBN should be done by manufacturer themselves and not as an aftermarket "part".

Sincerely,
Theis

Understood and thanks for enlightening me. But I was only asking about the finish of the metal itself after media blasting being compatible with a nitride process.

 

[Fat Dark Earth]

As pointed out above. It changes the chrystaine structure. Different metals react differently to this.

Surface finish is also a big factor here.

This is exactly what I was asking about. The surface finish after media blasting. Any further information on that would be helpful and I understand this isn’t the only factor. It’s just the only factor I’m interested in right now.

Thanks!

 

[308pirate]

This is exactly what I was asking about. The surface finish after media blasting. Any further information on that would be helpful and I understand this isn’t the only factor. It’s just the only factor I’m interested in right now.

Thanks!

You have no earthly idea of what you're talking about. Nor does the person who you were responding to.

This isn't the place to learn any of this. And basically, unless you're an engineer or metallurgist you best just steer clear of the topic for your own good.

But what do I know?

 

[Fat Dark Earth]

You have no earthly idea of what you're talking about. Nor does the person who you were responding to.

This isn't the place to learn any of this. And basically, unless you're an engineer or metallurgist you best just steer clear of the topic for your own good.

But what do I know?

Nice.
It was a simple question but thanks for saving me from myself. I came here to learn one thing. I definitely did.

 

[iceng]

You have no earthly idea of what you're talking about. Nor does the person who you were responding to.

This isn't the place to learn any of this. And basically, unless you're an engineer or metallurgist you best just steer clear of the topic for your own good.

But what do I know?

I'm a gunsmith/mechanical engineer who makes actions and owns a company. We/i'm the process of releasing a new model and dealing with this very issue with the company doing the application. Ill politely suggest you keep your opinions to yourself.

You need to work out which method and which type of finish you want. There are a few. Some raise the temperature significantly, some are applied cold (under 100degC), and you also need to concider the clearances you action has. If you had a Barnard action, I'd expect it wouldn't work as it would have the potential to bring the action.

Stainless 416 actions are different to 4140 cromo or 4340 cromo, and also need to factor in the bolt material (which is often different again).

If you have a course finish, say raw garnet sand blast, on a bolt lug or primary extraction cam surface, it will be 65+Rc and act like 600grit sand paper.

Things potentially need to be polished. There is multiple ways to so this, polishing in media VS buff wheel VS elbow grease, etc..

Is the bolt threaded bolt shroud, or twist lock ? If it's threaded (rem700 for example) what material is your bolt shroud ? If it's alloy, it will bind, so you will need steel, also grease and not graphite powder as a lubricant in that area.

Yes it's possible to post refinish an action, however it's a huge undertaking from a quality control stand point, and there's a reason no one does. You often need to design things around it.

Also why some actions bind when you cerakote them, and why many gunsmiths lap or hone the raceway prior to doing it to get the correct clearances.

 

[Fat Dark Earth]

I'm a gunsmith/mechanical engineer who makes actions and owns a company. We/i'm the process of releasing a new model and dealing with this very issue with the company doing the application. Ill politely suggest you keep your opinions to yourself.

You need to work out which method and which type of finish you want. There are a few. Some raise the temperature significantly, some are applied cold (under 100degC), and you also need to concider the clearances you action has. If you had a Barnard action, I'd expect it wouldn't work as it would have the potential to bring the action.

Stainless 416 actions are different to 4140 cromo or 4340 cromo, and also need to factor in the bolt material (which is often different again).

If you have a course finish, say raw garnet sand blast, on a bolt lug or primary extraction cam surface, it will be 65+Rc and act like 600grit sand paper.

Things potentially need to be polished. There is multiple ways to so this, polishing in media VS buff wheel VS elbow grease, etc..

Is the bolt threaded bolt shroud, or twist lock ? If it's threaded (rem700 for example) what material is your bolt shroud ? If it's alloy, it will bind, so you will need steel, also grease and not graphite powder as a lubricant in that area.

Yes it's possible to post refinish an action, however it's a huge undertaking from a quality control stand point, and there's a reason no one does. You often need to design things around it.

Also why some actions bind when you cerakote them, and why many gunsmiths lap or hone the raceway prior to doing it to get the correct clearances.

Thank you so very much. That helps me understand some of the questions I’ll have to ask before deciding to move forward.
I’m reaching out to the action manufacturer for assistance as well and all this info will help bring a safe and responsible decision on how to move forward.
I really appreciate your help, politeness and just plain common courtesy!

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

What form of nitriding are you looking at that has a build up into which you have to adjust your manufacturing drawings clearances for it?

The average "buildup" of nitriding is 10 microns (0.000393 inches).

Having had multiple Barnards; I would not see that buildup binding not even a Barnard.

The reason we see it in the firearms industry is because they do not have to adjust clearance ranges like you do for some of the real "coatings".

There are significantly better real "coatings" available for the firearms industry to use BUT they do require a change to manufacturing drawings for clearances which translates into money and time needing to be spent by the firearm manufacturer to get it right...

I have probably dealt with more coating and alloy treatment processes the past year than anyone else in the firearms industry, lolol.....

The fact that the firearms industry keeps talking Salt Bath when referring to Nitriding treatments is the key to highlighting everyone is just following to crowd and seeking nothing "outside" the norm.

SBN is the worst form of nitriding you can do in regards to the manhours and post finish cleaning, etc.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[308pirate]

I'm a gunsmith/mechanical engineer who makes actions and owns a company. We/i'm the process of releasing a new model and dealing with this very issue with the company doing the application. Ill politely suggest you keep your opinions to yourself.

You need to work out which method and which type of finish you want. There are a few. Some raise the temperature significantly, some are applied cold (under 100degC), and you also need to concider the clearances you action has. If you had a Barnard action, I'd expect it wouldn't work as it would have the potential to bring the action.

Stainless 416 actions are different to 4140 cromo or 4340 cromo, and also need to factor in the bolt material (which is often different again).

If you have a course finish, say raw garnet sand blast, on a bolt lug or primary extraction cam surface, it will be 65+Rc and act like 600grit sand paper.

Things potentially need to be polished. There is multiple ways to so this, polishing in media VS buff wheel VS elbow grease, etc..

Is the bolt threaded bolt shroud, or twist lock ? If it's threaded (rem700 for example) what material is your bolt shroud ? If it's alloy, it will bind, so you will need steel, also grease and not graphite powder as a lubricant in that area.

Yes it's possible to post refinish an action, however it's a huge undertaking from a quality control stand point, and there's a reason no one does. You often need to design things around it.

Also why some actions bind when you cerakote them, and why many gunsmiths lap or hone the raceway prior to doing it to get the correct clearances.

You can suggest whatever you want.

Not going to listen to someone says stuff like that above