Actual Accuracy of 22lr Premium Rifles

MAJOR2257 · Feb 3, 2023

I visit and read posts on several gun forums and often come across posts with shooters talking about the fantastic groups they have just shot with their rifles. I have three 22lr rifles that I'm quite proud of. Vudoo Gunworks (1st Gen), a Tikka T1X, and a Cz 457 Varmint Precision. I'm well aware of the ammo factor and usually shoot Lapua Center-X, SK Standard Plus, Ely Tenex, CCI Standard Velocity (best there is for consistency at an affordable price!). After reading posts about outstanding groups I set up and shoot off a benchrest and maybe once in a blue moon I'll get a group like they mention but it may only be one group during that shooting session.

My point or question is are these folks truly getting that type consistency most of the time or are they like me just getting them that tight once in a while? It frustrates me with my shooting when I can't get these groups consistently. I think we all have good days and bad days shooting. I usually know after shooting just a magazine whether I should pack up and go home, its not going to be a good day. Then some days I'm on and can do better. I keep getting off point but I think most of you get what I'm asking... are the tight groups folks refer to consistent or just their best of the day or maybe month? I only compete against myself but I'm no rookie at this and hate to keep changing things and spending money to chase that ultimate rifle if I'm already doing as good or even better than most.

hlee · Feb 3, 2023

How tight are these groups you’re talking about? Below is a 10x5 (ok 8x5 and one 10 shot group) target shot with my Kidd and CenterX at 50 yards at an indoor range. I generally only shoot enough groups to zero the rifle, but I was apparently feeling extra spry that day. I think this is representative of the gun and ammo (+ my shooting) and is not disingenuous as to the precision of the system.

ETA- Everyone on the internet had a a CZ that puts CCI SV into one hole, but I’ve never seen such a beast at a PRs/NRL style 22 rimfire match…

justin amateur · Feb 3, 2023

What value do you place on results, where you aren't hitting where you aim?

Groups are for adjusting y'er scope to y'er current brick of cartridges and wind conditions.

Sometimes for verifying ammunition quality in a hefty sample size.

If you want to catch my attention, shoot for score.

If you want bragging rights, you might want to show me you can hit what you aim at, not miss deliberately.

littlepod · Feb 3, 2023

I shoot a lot of PRS/NRL22 and because I enjoy shooting, I do also sometimes enjoy chasing group sizes, though it ends up being a rabbit hole and a money sink with no measurable gains.

I just went to the Lapua test center and tested 8 lots of Center-X so I can show you the results of 8 lots and how each lot may vary in group sizes. So you can make your own determination on potential -

This is measured, edge to edge for group size, shot at 50m, so 54.6yds.

A year ago, I sent in a Vudoo with a Benchmark barrel for testing as well -

I think they said something like below 18mm is what they're aiming to look for with CX. 12-13mm is what a benchrest shooter will look for.

The lot I chose I guess is somewhere like 16mm edge to edge for 20 shots, so .63" edge to edge - .221 leaves it like a 0.41" group at 50m, so .716moa.

RTH1800 · Feb 3, 2023

justin amateur said:
What value do you place on results, where you aren't hitting where you aim?

Groups are for adjusting y'er scope to y'er current brick of cartridges and wind conditions.

Sometimes for verifying ammunition quality in a hefty sample size.

If you want to catch my attention, shoot for score.

If you want bragging rights, you might want to show me you can hit what you aim at, not miss deliberately.

Justin,
You get a bit worked up about the "hitting what you aim at" issue. Sighting in a rifle is very basic. If you sight to hit your POA it does not take long to destroy your aiming point. Then what do you aim at? I often dial over to avoid it when shooting groups for accuracy testing.
You act like hitting 3/8" to the right is the end of the world. It was likely done with forethought.

You know so much, if you keep it positive and you will get better reception of your knowledge.

Just for you here is a 5 shot 100 yard group from my 52 Win.
I set it squirrel’s eye high so exactly where I want it with center hold on 1/2” dot.

hlee · Feb 3, 2023

RTH1800 said:
Justin,
You get a bit worked up about the "hitting what you aim at" issue. Sighting in a rifle is very basic. If you sight to hit your POA it does not take long to destroy your aiming point. Then what do you aim at? I often dial over to avoid it when shooting groups for accuracy testing.
You act like hitting 3/8" to the right is the end of the world. It was likely done with forethought.

You know so much, if you keep it positive and you will get better reception of your knowledge.

Just for you here is a 5 shot 100 yard group from my 52 Win.
I set it squirrel’s eye high so exactly where I want it with center hold on 1/2” dot.
View attachment 8065825

Put up 10 or 20 or whatever number of aim points and shoot one shot per aim point. Lots of shooters blind themselves by the “see how small the group is?” mentality when they missed the target with every shot.

RTH1800 · Feb 3, 2023

hlee said:
Put up 10 or 20 or whatever number of aim points and shoot one shot per aim point. Lots of shooters blind themselves by the “see how small the group is?” mentality when they missed the target with every shot.

That is meaningless if their goal is small groups. You are giving instructions for people to suit your criteria. If you shoot 20 shots at 20 dots your group is what 12-15”? That group sucks.

I just hunt so I do try to hit where I aim.
I might kid myself but I am actually not too bad at doing so.

If I was just concerned with groups it would not make much difference. Really just seems to me nit picking to criticize others for your personal bias.

Milo 2.5 · Feb 3, 2023

Groups or dots, precision or accuracy.
This is getting as ridiculous as a 700 rd sample size for load development, all chrono'd and charts made. I know a lot of guys here can shoot well, don't give 2 shits how they got here.

grauhanen · Feb 3, 2023

If ammo won't group well, it won't score well.

hlee · Feb 3, 2023

RTH1800 said:
That is meaningless if their goal is small groups.
I just hunt so I do try to hit where I aim.
I might kid myself but I am actually not too bad at doing so.

If I was just concerned with groups it would not make much difference. Really just seems to me nit picking to criticize others for your personal bias.

The counterpoint is “what does a small group matter if it misses the target?”

If groups are what you are after, you can create a composite group by aligning the individual aim points.

RTH1800 · Feb 3, 2023

Next you will tell us if you want grapes buy banana's and trade them for grapes.

If you want groups, shoot groups.

SwatchDog · Feb 3, 2023

Just the facts:
6 cards (groups) per session (highlighted in the beige section) 5 shots per card.
No cherry picking. Sighters not included.

This is just a recent snippet but this goes back several years.
Vudoo is a beast, but some days less so than others - custom build. NF NX8 4-32
CZ is 457MTR with Lilja barrel and Trigger by Scar (#18 produced)
CX 71 ammo is lot tested in Ohio at Lapua Jan 2022.

This is about as objective as I can make it. Ballistic-X used to measure group spread.
All from 50 yards off a bench an mostly on a mechanical rest. (Sinclair)

It's worth it.

Hoser · Feb 3, 2023

I keep my rifle zeroed at whatever range makes me happy. Normally 50 for rimfire and 100 for centerfire.

When I go to shoot a group I add in a handfull of elevation so my aimpoint doesent get distorted.

When I am verifying zero, I just shoot it and hope for my aimpoint to get distorted.

Back to the original question, most of my rifles are very consistent with good ammo. If the ammo just gives me good accuracy once in a while it isnt very good. If good ammo suddenly goes to shit I do two things, clean the gun and/or have someone else shoot it.

Milo 2.5 · Feb 3, 2023

hlee said:
Put up 10 or 20 or whatever number of aim points and shoot one shot per aim point. Lots of shooters blind themselves by the “see how small the group is?” mentality when they missed the target with every shot.

Most of us in the rimfire section of SH shoot using a bipod and rear bag when accuracy counts. You can't tell me shooting a green monster target with these setups may not impart a lot more shooter error than some 50 yard fudd with a 1400 buck front rest with a joystick doing the same.
If the actual goal is to not obliterate your aimpoint, who gives a shit? The common theme here is shooting accurate rifles, and there is more than one road to success. The squabbling over minute details has made this thread uninteresting in 7 posts.

hlee · Feb 3, 2023

Milo 2.5 said:
Most of us in the rimfire section of SH shoot using a bipod and rear bag when accuracy counts. You can't tell me shooting a green monster target with these setups may not impart a lot more shooter error than some 50 yard fudd with a 1400 buck front rest with a joystick doing the same.
If the actual goal is to not obliterate your aimpoint, who gives a shit? The common theme here is shooting accurate rifles, and there is more than one road to success. The squabbling over minute details has made this thread uninteresting in 7 posts.

Like this?

Or more like this?

littlesister · Feb 3, 2023

Milo 2.5 said:
Most of us in the rimfire section of SH shoot using a bipod and rear bag when accuracy counts. You can't tell me shooting a green monster target with these setups may not impart a lot more shooter error than some 50 yard fudd with a 1400 buck front rest with a joystick doing the same.
If the actual goal is to not obliterate your aimpoint, who gives a shit? The common theme here is shooting accurate rifles, and there is more than one road to success. The squabbling over minute details has made this thread uninteresting in 7 posts.

Calling 50yd benchrest shooters Fudds pretty much tells everyone that your opinions as related to shooting are useless!

jbell · Feb 3, 2023

MAJOR2257 said:
I visit and read posts on several gun forums and often come across posts with shooters talking about the fantastic groups they have just shot with their rifles. I have three 22lr rifles that I'm quite proud of. Vudoo Gunworks (1st Gen), a Tikka T1X, and a Cz 457 Varmint Precision. I'm well aware of the ammo factor and usually shoot Lapua Center-X, SK Standard Plus, Ely Tenex, CCI Standard Velocity (best there is for consistency at an affordable price!). After reading posts about outstanding groups I set up and shoot off a benchrest and maybe once in a blue moon I'll get a group like they mention but it may only be one group during that shooting session.

My point or question is are these folks truly getting that type consistency most of the time or are they like me just getting them that tight once in a while? It frustrates me with my shooting when I can't get these groups consistently. I think we all have good days and bad days shooting. I usually know after shooting just a magazine whether I should pack up and go home, its not going to be a good day. Then some days I'm on and can do better. I keep getting off point but I think most of you get what I'm asking... are the tight groups folks refer to consistent or just their best of the day or maybe month? I only compete against myself but I'm no rookie at this and hate to keep changing things and spending money to chase that ultimate rifle if I'm already doing as good or even better than most.

You never said what size groups you are referring to. But for me if a precision 22lr rifle will not at least shoot 1/2 MOA at 50 yards (with good ammo that the rifle likes) every time I shoot it I am not happy with that rifle. Within that I expect there to be at least several groups under the 1/2 MOA with the occasional 1/4 MOA. I am honest with myself as far as how I am shooting and how well I am staying on top of the wind. This is NOT a linear equation as the distance increases.

jbell · Feb 3, 2023

My statement is what the rifle is capable of, not necessarily what I am capable of. But I can usually hold my shit together enough to get a real good idea of how the rifle shoots.

RTH1800 · Feb 3, 2023

jbell said:
You never said what size groups you are referring to. But for me if a precision 22lr rifle will not at least shoot 1/2 MOA at 50 yards (with good ammo that the rifle likes) every time I shoot it I am not happy with that rifle. Within that I expect there to be at least several groups under the 1/2 MOA with the occasional 1/4 MOA. I am honest with myself as far as how I am shooting and how well I am staying on top of the wind. This is NOT a linear equation as the distance increases.

I would say that is some pretty rigid criteria. I cannot do that well all the time. When things go just right yes. All the time for me, no.

300zx_tt · Feb 3, 2023

hlee said:
How tight are these groups you’re talking about? Below is a 10x5 (ok 8x5 and one 10 shot group) target shot with my Kidd and CenterX at 50 yards at an indoor range. I generally only shoot enough groups to zero the rifle, but I was apparently feeling extra spry that day. I think this is representative of the gun and ammo (+ my shooting) and is not disingenuous as to the precision of the system.

View attachment 8065739

ETA- Everyone on the internet had a a CZ that puts CCI SV into one hole, but I’ve never seen such a beast at a PRs/NRL style 22 rimfire match…

I’ve shot my 457 and CCI standard at 50 yards and gotten one hole groups. But they are FAR from average…

There’s no question, if you’re on the range enough shooting a few hundred rounds, you’ll eventually shoot a group that’s impressive.

Hi-NV Shooter · Feb 3, 2023

littlepod said:
I shoot a lot of PRS/NRL22 and because I enjoy shooting, I do also sometimes enjoy chasing group sizes, though it ends up being a rabbit hole and a money sink with no measurable gains.

I just went to the Lapua test center and tested 8 lots of Center-X so I can show you the results of 8 lots and how each lot may vary in group sizes. So you can make your own determination on potential -

This is measured, edge to edge for group size, shot at 50m, so 54.6yds.

View attachment 8065780

A year ago, I sent in a Vudoo with a Benchmark barrel for testing as well -

View attachment 8065783

I think they said something like below 18mm is what they're aiming to look for with CX. 12-13mm is what a benchrest shooter will look for.

The lot I chose I guess is somewhere like 16mm edge to edge for 20 shots, so .63" edge to edge - .221 leaves it like a 0.41" group at 50m, so .716moa.

I hope you misunderstood what they said as BR shooters are looking for 12-13mm. if they have that as their standard, I understand now some of the complaints about quality going down.

This is from a factory barreled Anschutz 1413 made in 1976 yes it did have a tuner. but the barrel is 43 years old. 11.86mm with CX

Lee

jbell · Feb 3, 2023

RTH1800 said:
I would say that is some pretty rigid criteria. I cannot do that well all the time. When things go just right yes. All the time for me, no.

It is, but after building a lot of really high end rimfire rifles it is what I have come to set as my standard. I wasn’t trying to claim that I am always capable of holding that level of accuracy especially in anything other than optimal conditions. I thought the OP was asking what the top level rifles are capable of.

jbell · Feb 3, 2023

For reference here is an example of what I consider an accurate rifle should do during a decent condition day (light winds with 30° air temp). It is a VGW build, that I recently picked up here in a trade - used. This was shot with a random lot of SK Standard Plus (not even a great ammo), no cherry-picking of groups. Consecutive 50 rounds (10 5 round groups) including the cold bore (as noted). I posted this in the William Buck Memorial thread:

Here is the conditions when I shot this target, definitely not the best…

littlepod · Feb 3, 2023

Hi-NV Shooter said:
I hope you misunderstood what they said as BR shooters are looking for 12-13mm. if they have that as their standard, I understand now some of the complaints about quality going down.

This is from a factory barreled Anschutz 1413 made in 1976 yes it did have a tuner. but the barrel is 43 years old. 11.86mm with CX

Lee

I don't shoot benchrest so I don't have any test results from benchrest shooters. From all of the tests we've done with Vudoos and RimX's with Krieger, Bartlein, Ace, Benchmark, and IBI barrels very few have been producing even 13mm with Center-X.

littlepod · Feb 3, 2023

Regarding group size, they say a 10 shot group vs a 5 shot group is about 30% bigger. So if you're getting a .250 avg from a bunch of 5 shot groups, then if those were 10 shots, would be a a .325 avg.

justin amateur · Feb 4, 2023

I'm a card carrying curmudgeon now RT.
Officially a member of the old coots that gather at the diner,
for bacon and coffee before adjourning to the range for loud entertainment.
That allows me to be less than politically correct in my opinions.

I've shot groups, way more groups than I care to think about.
They work well for adjusting y'er setup, testing ammo quality and confirming basic skill,
but they don't answer the question: Can you hit what you aim at?
That's the purpose of a rifle, right? To put a bullet where it needs to be.
When you have moved beyond factory Sporters, and have spent the big bucks
on a high end, premium, custom rifle, it's time to exit the realm of close enough,
and take up residence in the land of punching center.
No more posting images of groups that wander around y'er point of aim,
it's time to focus on putting every shot dead center,
exactly where that "premium rifle" was built to deliver them.
Shoot for score, hit where you aim, can you, or not?
That's what a purpose built precision rifle is for.
Not scattering clusters of shots around wherever the wind or ammo quality shoved them.

I thought I had it figured out, tight groups are easy.
Then I made the mistake of measuring aggregate group sizes for 25 and 50 shots.
What I thought was sub moa all day long, was actually 2 moa due to wandering centers of impact.
It took shooting for score and the Grid, to confirm just how sloppy my results actually are.
Sure, I can produce a whole bunch of random acts of accuracy at 50, 100 and 200 yards,
but when you see my results when I have to punch center,
there's no doubt, just another amateur behind the trigger.

I do have a method for improving accuracy.
Works extremely well out in the woods, sneak in really close to the squirrels,
then take the shot. Don't even need match ammo,
when the target is less than 30 yards away, eh?

@MAJOR2257, give up on groups for proving accuracy.
Use one dot-one shot targets.... you'll learn more, faster
and you'll figure out real quick if it's the ammo, wind, or you causing strays.

grauhanen · Feb 4, 2023

Hit or miss is a binary issue. If it's a simple "hit or miss" -- one small dot or the intersection of two lines at 50 yards, for example -- it's either a yes or a no. If it's a miss, it must be a "no". A lot of shooters will do a lot of missing what they aim at.

Scoring with X's, 10's, 9's, etc. adds a sense of degree to the yes/no question and answer. Anything other than an X, in any direction -- up or down, left or right -- even if it's a 10, must still -- to a degree, at least -- be a miss.

Shooting groups is also a matter of degree. They are either very, very small or they are bigger. But competing and deciding by score seems more clear cut.

hlee · Feb 4, 2023

grauhanen said:
Hit or miss is a binary issue. If it's a simple "hit or miss" -- one small dot or the intersection of two lines at 50 yards, for example -- it's either a yes or a no. If it's a miss, it must be a "no". A lot of shooters will do a lot of missing what they aim at.

Scoring with X's, 10's, 9's, etc. adds a sense of degree to the yes/no question and answer. Anything other than an X, in any direction -- up or down, left or right -- even if it's a 10, must still -- to a degree, at least -- be a miss.

Shooting groups is also a matter of degree. They are either very, very small or they are bigger. But competing and deciding by score seems more clear cut.

Decades ago, I was in the boy scouts, and shooting for my “rifle” merit badge- 22 rimfire. (Do they still let scouts shoot?) The scoring was based on group size. You had to shoot X number of small groups and y number of really small groups (both 3 and 5 shot groups were required). In addition to demonstrate safe handling, etc. Well, I yanked the first shot of a group well off my aim point. Understanding the actual goal, I adjusted my aim to that errant impact and printed a qualifying group. Of course, it was a couple of inches away from the bullseye and I had ‘missed the target’ every time- once in error and 4x by intent.

What am I getting at? Well, scoring totally by group misses the point (as our resident curmudgeon has pointed out). Tight groups can be the salve to the ego when the shooter misses the target.

MarkCZ · Feb 4, 2023

MAJOR2257 said:
I visit and read posts on several gun forums and often come across posts with shooters talking about the fantastic groups they have just shot with their rifles. I have three 22lr rifles that I'm quite proud of. Vudoo Gunworks (1st Gen), a Tikka T1X, and a Cz 457 Varmint Precision. I'm well aware of the ammo factor and usually shoot Lapua Center-X, SK Standard Plus, Ely Tenex, CCI Standard Velocity (best there is for consistency at an affordable price!). After reading posts about outstanding groups I set up and shoot off a benchrest and maybe once in a blue moon I'll get a group like they mention but it may only be one group during that shooting session.

My point or question is are these folks truly getting that type consistency most of the time or are they like me just getting them that tight once in a while? It frustrates me with my shooting when I can't get these groups consistently. I think we all have good days and bad days shooting. I usually know after shooting just a magazine whether I should pack up and go home, its not going to be a good day. Then some days I'm on and can do better. I keep getting off point but I think most of you get what I'm asking... are the tight groups folks refer to consistent or just their best of the day or maybe month? I only compete against myself but I'm no rookie at this and hate to keep changing things and spending money to chase that ultimate rifle if I'm already doing as good or even better than most.

Are you shooting prone? What size are your groups? Are you watching for wind? Some of this is just the nature of rimfire, what shoots great today, may just shoot so so today. It is all about what you are shooting. Are you shooting for groups, or working on ammo for a match? We all are only going to get these small groups, in good wind conditions.

I have 2 Bergara B14R's, Tikka T1x, and Kidd Supergrade, that will shoot sub moa out to 280yds. in good weather conditions. If the wind is up, that is out the window.

I'm not a big group shooter, I like shooting steel long range. I am looking for hit % for the day. Most of the time, I am holding for wind. when I have the wind hold down, I can run the targets, until the wind changes. Then I have to find the wind hold again.

Hi-NV Shooter · Feb 4, 2023

jbell said:
For reference here is an example of what I consider an accurate rifle should do during a decent condition day (light winds with 30° air temp). It is a VGW build, that I recently picked up here in a trade - used. This was shot with a random lot of SK Standard Plus (not even a great ammo), no cherry-picking of groups. Consecutive 50 rounds (10 5 round groups) including the cold bore (as noted). I posted this in the William Buck Memorial thread:

View attachment 8066175

Here is the conditions when I shot this target, definitely not the best…
View attachment 8066177

jbell, that is a very good cold bore shooting rifle if it does that all the time. I would guess clean bore. looks like you let your ammo acclimate to the ambient temperatures too.

Lee

Hi-NV Shooter · Feb 4, 2023

justin amateur said:
I'm a card carrying curmudgeon now RT.
Officially a member of the old coots that gather at the diner,
for bacon and coffee before adjourning to the range for loud entertainment.
That allows me to be less than politically correct in my opinions.

I've shot groups, way more groups than I care to think about.
They work well for adjusting y'er setup, testing ammo quality and confirming basic skill,
but they don't answer the question: Can you hit what you aim at?
That's the purpose of a rifle, right? To put a bullet where it needs to be.
When you have moved beyond factory Sporters, and have spent the big bucks
on a high end, premium, custom rifle, it's time to exit the realm of close enough,
and take up residence in the land of punching center.
No more posting images of groups that wander around y'er point of aim,
it's time to focus on putting every shot dead center,
exactly where that "premium rifle" was built to deliver them.
Shoot for score, hit where you aim, can you, or not?
That's what a purpose built precision rifle is for.
Not scattering clusters of shots around wherever the wind or ammo quality shoved them.

I thought I had it figured out, tight groups are easy.
Then I made the mistake of measuring aggregate group sizes for 25 and 50 shots.
What I thought was sub moa all day long, was actually 2 moa due to wandering centers of impact.
It took shooting for score and the Grid, to confirm just how sloppy my results actually are.
Sure, I can produce a whole bunch of random acts of accuracy at 50, 100 and 200 yards,
but when you see my results when I have to punch center,
there's no doubt, just another amateur behind the trigger.

I do have a method for improving accuracy.
Works extremely well out in the woods, sneak in really close to the squirrels,
then take the shot. Don't even need match ammo,
when the target is less than 30 yards away, eh?

@MAJOR2257, give up on groups for proving accuracy.
Use one dot-one shot targets.... you'll learn more, faster
and you'll figure out real quick if it's the ammo, wind, or you causing strays.

Aren't you speaking of precision hitting what you aim for? and accuracy is about consistency? I shot a good number of groups in the past now I only do it to tune a rifle. but I agree hitting what you aim for is a better gauge on the whole package including the shooter

Lee

hlee · Feb 4, 2023

Hi-NV Shooter said:
Aren't you speaking of precision hitting what you aim for? and accuracy is about consistency? I shot a good number of groups in the past now I only do it to tune a rifle. but I agree hitting what you aim for is a better gauge on the whole package including the shooter

Lee

You have that backwards. Precision is consistency. Accuracy is placement.

lil'skeet · Feb 4, 2023

hlee said:
Put up 10 or 20 or whatever number of aim points and shoot one shot per aim point. Lots of shooters blind themselves by the “see how small the group is?” mentality when they missed the target with every shot.

I know that for me, I need consistency (tight groups) long before I can move on to accuracy stuff. Especially with .22lr. It doesn't take much to change POI.

steve123 · Feb 4, 2023

"Precision" depends on more than a few things.

The shooter is responsible for "Accuracy" and the best target shooters prevail often because they had the wind figured out more than the rest of the competitors.

Ammo quality, rifle and build quality, scope and mount quality, rest system quality, as well as "set up" concerning the "Tune" of the whole of them working in synergy does matter when keeping shots in the X.
Not unrelated is of course the tune of the shooters skill.

Wind and temps obviously affects equipment and person.

I know the top airgun BR shooter in the USA so when he talks I listen. Not exaggerating here - he shoots close to 100,000 pellets and slugs/(lead bullets) a year, both outside in his yard at 50Y and 100Y, and inside his 25Y tunnel, because his JOB is building the most precise BR airguns in the world. My main take away and the Major aspect I've learned from him is he knows almost exactly how far out to aim and how far "UP or DOWN" as relating to what information his wind flags show him. Yes wind affects projectiles in the vertical.

^^^The best rimfire BR shooters have and use the same knowledge.

I'm absolutely a novice BR shooter but when shooting his newest Gen BR rifle, on his Randolph rest, using his custom swaged slugs, etc, at his place last October in 7-11 mph winds, and I shot a 250/12x on a N50 BR card my first try. He coached me while I was shooting sighters then when I shot for score he left me to my own. If I knew how far up or down to aim like he does I think I could have scored a bunch more X's because it was breezy.

It's tad easier than that to shoot a 250 on a N50 target with the fanciest of rimfire's and BR equipment compared to an airgun. That could change in the future if he/they can get .2+ BC slugs to remain precise enough in an airgun.

IIRC when I was having my rimfire ammo testing done at the Lapua test facility the guy doing it said 10mm average groups OTO at 50M were about the best he'd seen. That was 8 years ago so this might have been improved upon, I don't know??

Here's a wind rose to help know where to aim in the wind.

You are being redirected...

drglock · Feb 4, 2023

Not trying to sound like an asshole but I could care less if my setup can hit a grid every shot at 50yds. Yes it would be awesome if it did but this is rimfire, way too many variables for a 40gr bullet going subsonic to be able to do that. For example the club by me has a NRL22/PRS22 match every month. One stage has been the same at every match, it’s called the sub moa TYL. It’s always at 107yds and shot prone. 10 spinners with the last spinner being .25”. This match has been running for five years. It averages 25 shooters a month and in that 5 years the stage has only been cleaned 3 times with me being one of the guys that have done it. Anywhere from $300 setups to $6000 setups with every imaginable rimfire rifle being used. Let’s say it has 11 matches a year(there’s been a few months for some reason we couldn’t have it) 25 shooters a match and five years. So on 1,375 try’s it’s been cleaned 3 times.

drglock · Feb 4, 2023

@justin amateur no disrespect, I love the data you post and what you do but hitting grids at 50yds is chasing a fantasy

jbell · Feb 4, 2023

Hi-NV Shooter said:
jbell, that is a very good cold bore shooting rifle if it does that all the time. I would guess clean bore. looks like you let your ammo acclimate to the ambient temperatures too.

Lee

I don’t yet know, that was the first cold dirty bore I have had with the rifle on the second trip to the range with the first having a clean bore and no zero on the scope. This is something I always check with all my rifles. Most of my rimfires have shown a similar cold bore shift (a few tenths high at 50 yards).

justin amateur · Feb 4, 2023

It's true Doc, I fantasize about cleaning the Grid at 50 yards
every time I hang another chunk of cardboard.
That fantasy lasts about as long as it takes to fire the first shot.

I also understand it's unlikely I'll ever fulfill the fantasy.
Still doesn't stop me from trying.

I have another fantasy I play at the range.
3/4 inch diameter red or orange stickers at 100 yards.
Put 10 stickers on a backer, then try to put 5 shots into each sticker.
Best edge scoring, even just touching the edge of the dot counts.
If all 5 shots hit the dot, at 100 yards it's a sub moa group.
Think of it as shooting groups and you have to hit what you aim at.
It's kicking my adze too.

.

drglock · Feb 4, 2023

What I’m getting at is everyone saying if you’re not hitting what you’re aiming at then it doesn’t matter and I mean hitting your grid or a very small dot. It’s just not going to happen very often or at all depending on how many you shoot at. If I’m hitting within a .2”-.25” of where I’m aiming at(50yds) then I’m happy and I’m running a RimX with a Shilen ratchet barrel but I’m also only shooting PRS22 and rimfire F-class matches.

justin amateur · Feb 4, 2023

We need bigger dots.

jbell · Feb 4, 2023

littlepod said:
Regarding group size, they say a 10 shot group vs a 5 shot group is about 30% bigger. So if you're getting a .250 avg from a bunch of 5 shot groups, then if those were 10 shots, would be a a .325 avg.

justin amateur said:
What value do you place on results, where you aren't hitting where you aim?

Groups are for adjusting y'er scope to y'er current brick of cartridges and wind conditions.

Sometimes for verifying ammunition quality in a hefty sample size.

If you want to catch my attention, shoot for score.

If you want bragging rights, you might want to show me you can hit what you aim at, not miss deliberately.

You guys got me thinking… I dug that target I pictured out of the trash and did a rough overlay to determine the 50 round group size and furtherest shot from POA. Luckily the outer most point of all the shots from the center of the POA other than the cold bore was the bottom center group with the edge of the round just touching the inner of the black circle. So it was fairly easy to precisely plot that round into the first group with the cold bore shot.

The best I can tell if all 10 targets were overlayed for a 50 round group the average CTC would be 0.532” to 0.534” / just over MOA.

The center dot is 0.110” in diameter. The outer edge of the furthest shot (cold bore) from the outer edge of the center dot is 0.642” so the center to center is: 0.365” from POA using the average bullet hole size of 0.222”.

To add to the hitting your POA conversation the inner diameter of the black ring on this target measures 0.485” (something about how it printed I guess). Out of the 50 rounds fired 46 rounds had the center of the POI at or inside the inner ring. Meaning 92% of the rounds fired were no more than 1/2 MOA from POA that is using center of POA to center of POI. Which brings up another thought in my head, if you want a higher hit percentage / better score shoot a larger diameter bullet…

Here is me messing around with the overlay

jbell · Feb 4, 2023

And obviously the zero was off by about 0.1 Mil, that would really change the POA vs POI conversation. I just wast not concerned with having a perfect zero with a random lot of ammo I don’t really intend on shooting all the time on my second trip to the range with this rifle.

justin amateur · Feb 4, 2023

You need a new 50 yard target Jesse.
0.52 inch is 1 moa, subtract bullet diameter 0.22, leaves 0.30 inch.
With a 0.05 inch radius center dot and a 0.15 inch diameter circle... that'll be an interesting target.
Easy to print 40 or 50 on an 8.5x11 inch sheet of paper.
With best edge scoring, any shot that hits the outer ring is sub moa.
I'll have to sit down with my cadd software and create one.
Ought to be easier than my Grid, also make it simpler to indicate sub moa results.

littlepod · Feb 4, 2023

jbell said:
You guys got me thinking… I dug that target I pictured out of the trash and did a rough overlay to determine the 50 round group size and furtherest shot from POA. Luckily the outer most point of all the shots from the center of the POA other than the cold bore was the bottom center group with the edge of the round just touching the inner of the black circle. So it was fairly easy to precisely plot that round into the first group with the cold bore shot.

The best I can tell if all 10 targets were overlayed for a 50 round group the average CTC would be 0.532” to 0.534” / just over MOA.

The center dot is 0.110” in diameter. The outer edge of the furthest shot (cold bore) from the outer edge of the center dot is 0.642” so the center to center is: 0.365” from POA using the average bullet hole size of 0.222”.

To add to the hitting your POA conversation the inner diameter of the black ring on this target measures 0.485” (something about how it printed I guess). Out of the 50 rounds fired 46 rounds had the center of the POI at or inside the inner ring. Meaning 92% of the rounds fired were no more than 1/2 MOA from POA that is using center of POA to center of POI. Which brings up another thought in my head, if you want a higher hit percentage / better score shoot a larger diameter bullet…

Here is me messing around with the overlay
View attachment 8066627

was a really great podcast from Hornady talking about # of shots per group and group size, and SD/ES.

.250 5 shot group = .325 10 shot group
.325 10 shot group = .39 20 shot group
.39 20 shot group = .43 30 shot group.

Hi-NV Shooter · Feb 4, 2023

jbell said:
I don’t yet know, that was the first cold dirty bore I have had with the rifle on the second trip to the range with the first having a clean bore and no zero on the scope. This is something I always check with all my rifles. Most of my rimfires have shown a similar cold bore shift (a few tenths high at 50 yards).

If a rifle will shoot the first shot center on the vertical plane that means everything else is correct. meaning bedding, ignition, etc. I use tuners and one of the first things I do with a new barrel/ rifle is shoot bare and look for where it will shoot if it is on that vertical plane then it is just a matter of dialing in the tuner.

Lee

Hi-NV Shooter · Feb 4, 2023

justin amateur said:
You need a new 50 yard target Jesse.
0.52 inch is 1 moa, subtract bullet diameter 0.22, leaves 0.30 inch.
With a 0.05 inch radius center dot and a 0.15 inch diameter circle... that'll be an interesting target.
Easy to print 40 or 50 on an 8.5x11 inch sheet of paper.
With best edge scoring, any shot that hits the outer ring is sub moa.
I'll have to sit down with my cadd software and create one.
Ought to be easier than my Grid, also make it simpler to indicate sub moa result

hlee said:
You have that backwards. Precision is consistency. Accuracy is placement.

Not the first time I had it backwards

Lee

Daniel G. Banting · Feb 5, 2023

The "precision and accuracy" of the first 4 responses was excellent. It would appear that just as group size increases with number of shots accuracy diminishes with the number of responses to a question.

NewsShooter · Feb 5, 2023

hlee said:
Put up 10 or 20 or whatever number of aim points and shoot one shot per aim point. Lots of shooters blind themselves by the “see how small the group is?” mentality when they missed the target with every shot.

What if you're trying out new lots of ammo, do you do dot drills?

M4orturnate · Feb 5, 2023

hlee said:
The counterpoint is “what does a small group matter if it misses the target?”

If groups are what you are after, you can create a composite group by aligning the individual aim points.

Are you testing poi or group accuracy. If im testeing for how tight the group us ill dial .2 up so i dont shoot my aim point away. If im testing poi consistency(wich i dont do a lot) ill shoot dots. As far as the original question ive never seen someone held back at a prs22 match becuase of a cz or begara. I wouldn't trade my vudoo but its not a requirement to win by any stretch. Quality ammo is.

justin amateur · Feb 5, 2023

What he said about quality ammunition.^^^

With my F-Class 223 and hand loads, punching center at 100 yards
isn't anywhere near as challenging as attempting to do so with rimfire.
The difference is not me, the setup or reading wind,
it's all on the variations in components and assembly of the cartridges.
Finding uniformly well made cartridges with tight muzzle velocities is the problem.
Mass production just doesn't lend itself to the quality control needed for consistent accuracy.

Having trouble using the site?

Subscribe to HideTV with code XMAS20 for 20% Off

Actual Accuracy of 22lr Premium Rifles

Private

Sergeant

Sergeant

Newbie

Supporter

Sergeant

Supporter

The Dalai Lama of the Reload

Private

Sergeant

Supporter

Private

Ninja

The Dalai Lama of the Reload

Sergeant

Sergeant of the Hide

Gunny Sergeant

Gunny Sergeant

Supporter

Supporter

Attachments

Sergeant of the Hide

Attachments

Gunny Sergeant

Gunny Sergeant

Newbie

Newbie

Sergeant

Private

Sergeant

Gunny Sergeant

Sergeant of the Hide

Sergeant of the Hide

Sergeant

Private

Lt. Colonel

Old fat guy

Old fat guy

Gunny Sergeant

Sergeant

Old fat guy

Sergeant

Gunny Sergeant

Gunny Sergeant

Sergeant

Newbie

Sergeant of the Hide

Sergeant of the Hide

Private

Sergeant

Major Hide Member

Sergeant

Similar threads