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Thanks for your reply. Even though I have a Vudoo the Kidd still makes my mouth water! As far as spending my money on ammo I would like to do just that but finding quality 22lr ammo is like finding buried Confederate gold! I get emails from companies saying they have it in stock but by the time I see the email it is all already gone. I get so many emails that if I set it up to give a notification every time one comes in I'd go bats***!I have a Kidd Supergrade in a Titan stock, with Titan's rear anchor. It is a 1/2moa gun out to 200 yds in good wind conditions. I would say a Kidd Supergrade would out shoot your 10-22, but is it worth $1500+ to get 0.1" or 0.2" better in groups. Same thing goes for Vudoo's vs CZ. is it worth 3 times the money for a few 0.1's. Be happy with what you have. Put your money into ammo and shooting. trying top ammo is way cheaper than a new gun.
And yes, guys get worked over most anything on this site. post go completely off the rail.
I’ll raise you for fun. Here’s 13 10 shot groups with 13 different lotsThats pretty good. here is mine but only 20-shots. here is something most don't do try shooting groups with different lots. 5 10-shot groups shot with 5 different lots.
Lee
Hmm, how about 2 5-shot groups at 100yds. or 50 at 100 I rarely shoot groups now, only when I tune a rifle. I get my fun now trying to take out a little dot 25 times my best has been 22 & 21 still trying though.I’ll raise you for fun. Here’s 13 10 shot groups with 13 different lots
....My point or question is are these folks truly getting that type consistency most of the time or are they like me just getting them that tight once in a while? It frustrates me with my shooting when I can't get these groups consistently...
IME at 100 yds. it is about the ammo. lots can shoot really good at 50 and fall apart at 100.Shot a .15 and a .2 at 50 with my 10/22 back to back. Still can't tell if Center-x is really worth it in that rifle.
Sucks at 100 for groups but good on small plates(2-3") one was a .5 then opened to 1.34 with a 5th shot flier
Rimfire Accuracy is where most of the big-name shooters can be found.Paying attention to keyboard commandos posting or talking about selected small groups is a fools errand. If you look at people shooting on YouTube, their setups, methodologies and performances are nothing short of dismal. I quit watching them on their first error.
There are a number of sites on the web that write articles about what champions in the sport do. Focus on those. I am one that in rimfire I get what I think is really accurate consistency (I said accurate, not precision) on 5 shot groups at 50 yards - bug holes. I can do that about 4-5 out of ten times at 50-yards - and in the bullseye. Shooting tight groups is not the same as accuracy.
On the internet try to read stuff from people that win matches, consistently. The discipline or calibers matter not. Look closely at articles about smallbore F-Class and smallbore bench rest.
I've been shooting for a long time. Decades before most posters were even born. And as an analyst by profession I pay attention to what matters.
What matters most is the shooter. It's all about the hold - where the rifle is asleep, trigger press - very slow, watching the reticle to make sure the rifle stays asleep, the firing hand (for right handers a bad grip shot's go right), Bad cheek weld (right handers shots go left). And so on. I could elaborate on request but I'm making this short.
Again, read stuff from champions in the game, pretty much take everything with a huge grain of salt. Work on accuracy first, not precision that's the gun's purview.
You can start by going to accurateshooter.com and click rimfire.
With regard to .22LR, can you elaborate on what's meant by a rifle being "asleep"?What matters most is the shooter. It's all about the hold - where the rifle is asleep, trigger press - very slow, watching the reticle to make sure the rifle stays asleep, the firing hand (for right handers a bad grip shot's go right), Bad cheek weld (right handers shots go left). And so on. I could elaborate on request but I'm making this short.
Indeed. It's always about the ammo.IME at 100 yds. it is about the ammo. lots can shoot really good at 50 and fall apart at 100.
With regard to .22LR, can you elaborate on what's meant by a rifle being "asleep"?
I hear you, besides being awake mines likes to dance.On sunny afternoons mirage keeps my rifle awake.
Two burritos for lunch will do that. Farts worsen local mirageOn sunny afternoons mirage keeps my rifle awake.
I think you and I have had a discussion similar to this. Given what we talked about before; I would suggest the Bergara B14R, get the steel barrel. It's not a Vudoo, but probably the closest thing for on a reasonable budget. Since it's based on the Remington 700 footprint, you could upgrade the trigger and put it in a better stock/chassis down the road. I think it would meet your expectations. Keep in mind, Bergara started off as a barrel manufacturing company, and they make some good ones.I need to get a bolt gun in RF think it'll up my game a bit just can't decide if I should go B14r, 457 MTR, or save several times longer and get a vudoo.
Cost vs gain on the vudoo is pretty subjective I've seen cheaper rifles keep up with them.
Really depends on what you want to doI need to get a bolt gun in RF think it'll up my game a bit just can't decide if I should go B14r, 457 MTR, or save several times longer and get a vudoo.
Cost vs gain on the vudoo is pretty subjective I've seen cheaper rifles keep up with them.
I’m at a similar spot. A Frankengun T1X in an ACC does the job for now. A CZ would do the same, probably with a simpler build path. Unless you are now or are planning to be podium competitive in Rimfire, a full on custom with chassis and proper dedicated optic is not necessary. If you will regularly be podium bound, a pro level system adds consistency that matters when a few extra points moves you from 6th to 3rd, or 3rd to 1st. If your budget allows, buy the full no expense spared system right away. Without a lot of focus and practice, some poor but obsessive practicer dude with a stock CZ will finish higher though.I need to get a bolt gun in RF think it'll up my game a bit just can't decide if I should go B14r, 457 MTR, or save several times longer and get a vudoo.
Cost vs gain on the vudoo is pretty subjective I've seen cheaper rifles keep up with them.
A Vudoo or any other premium rifle can't do well with poorly selected ammo. No rifle, whatever the make, can outperform the ammo.Cost vs gain on the vudoo is pretty subjective I've seen cheaper rifles keep up with them.
Given a rifle capable of good precision, and good ammunition then the only variable left is the human being behind the rifle.What he said. ^^^
I remember a quote from a book I read years ago...
"To obtain repeatable accuracy, everything has to happen exactly the same, each time you squeeze the trigger"
So the conditions, setup, rifle and the ammunition, all need to be as close to identical as possible.
That's where rimfire ammunition is the variable I have no control over.
Finding well made cartridges with tight muzzle velocities is extremely difficult.
Brand is no guarantee of cartridge uniformity. It's mass produced ammunition
subject to variations in components and assembly. The only method that
allows me to obtain acceptable accuracy with different ammunition,
is to match cartridge quality to the distance from muzzle to target.
At 15 yards any brand of 22lr can punch center.
At 25 yards the junk stuff starts to show strays.
At 50 yards most decently made rimfire will impact less than 1/2 inch from point of aim.
At 100 yards, it'll take the best you can find to consistently hit 1/2 inch or less from center.
My questions after each shot fired: Did I hit where I intended? If I didn't, why?
There was some SK Match Gold around which was excellent. Likely the same stuff. Around 2007 iirc.Wolf Match Gold was made in Germany at the SK Jagd factory.
Very well worded sir. I appreciate your reply.Given a rifle capable of good precision, and good ammunition then the only variable left is the human being behind the rifle.
I've given this a lot of thought. The truth is that pretty much all off the shelf modern rifles of known high quality built today are very accurate. Most all components are built on CNC machines with very tight tolerances. These are not the rifles from decades past. High end benchrest rifles are a different story. Those are complete systems designed for one thing only - to shoot multiple rounds into a single hole - with very little shooter interaction.
Everything else is really good but these days but still involve the shooter. I posted this on another thread and will repeat it here:
We humans are amazing creatures. We can take a rifle, put a scope on it and with some coaching or the right practice start getting close to or under 1 MOA at 100 consistently. That is an incredible thing. Why? because any movement produced by the human behind the rifle/pistol, whatever translates to a change in the point of impact, but what is really amazing is that the deviation is SO slight.
How slight?? Do you have a cheap plastic protractor laying around? If you do, pull it out and look at the spacing for the one degree lines. It's tiny. How tiny? How about adding 6000 more lines between those?
Now some simple math. I aim with mils so I'll use that. Mil scopes have mostly .1M clicks. And we humans can see the impact change of a .1 click -.36 inches at 100. How big is that in the world? Well, .1 mil at 100 yards is exactly 0.005729578 of a degree! That is super tiny and a testament of what we humans can see, and what we do.
But, it doesn't take much to get off by 0.005729578 degrees from Point of Aim by human induced motion. All firearms today are pretty much more precise than most of us. And, I have a drill that I fall back on when my wheels fall off. And it starts at 50 yards. That's how I practice when I lose it. I do it with my CZ 457 based .22 magnum purpose built built rimfire trainer.
I hold aim for no less than 4-6 seconds on a dot a little less than 1/16 of and inch. This is critical. I wont shoot unless I can do that hold. The rifle is asleep, so to speak. All this time I'm applying more and more pressure on the trigger until it goes off. If the rifle was sentient it would say: WHAT the hell just happened!! And that is called accuracy.
And it works.... The point is that I can see what can actually happen when I make changes, even slight ones, and it all goes right - that IS the foundation, and it is repeatable, With results like this - 5-shots on each target at 52 yards with not the most accurate cartridge in the world by a far shot (1-inch targets - 1/2-inch center):
Edit: Forgot to post a pic of the trainer:
The only CZ 457 part is the action. The barrel is a Lilja match 23-inch barrel.
That is some very impressive shooting.
Thank you Sir!!That is some very impressive shooting.