Does A&D 120i scale make a big difference?

OkieMike · Jul 28, 2023

Watching this thread as it appears my Lyman just shit the bed... Like 15 minutes ago.

Pulled the power cord and will let it set overnight just to be sure... But I'm thinking it's done.

Wanted to load a few rounds to verify a load and had to break out the beam scale.

I may actually regress back to a beam scale if I can find a good quality one... And just buy a throw for the high volume stuff and verify it every X number of rounds with the beam.

Not sure I need the resolution discussed here. But I'll definitely keep an open mind.

Mike

JerkyFreak · Jul 28, 2023

If you can get the hang of setting the weight, the Lee balance beam balance is surprisingly accurate and precise.

OkieMike · Jul 29, 2023

JerkyFreak said:
If you can get the hang of setting the weight, the Lee balance beam balance is surprisingly accurate and precise.

That is actually what I used. It's the first scale I started with and had it stored in its box in the back of my reloading tool chest.

It's slow as molasses and I guarantee it isn't accurate to .01 grain. But I made good ammo with it for a while before I upgraded.

Mike

canezach · Jul 29, 2023

I've been using the 120i and AutoTrickler since it first came out. No, I didn't see significant improvements in SD or ES over my ChargeMaster, and if you are, there's something in your reloading process you need to fix. If an extra 0.05 grains up or down is making that big of a difference in velocities, something else is wrong because if you loaded 20 rounds each at 42.0 and 42.1 grains, you'll have a lot of overlapping velocities. The single largest improvement you can make your velocities more consistent is to go to quality brass with consistent internal capacity or sort the brass you do have by internal capacity. The next largest improvement you can make is to have consistent neck tension.

The scale doesn't change a thing by itself. The benefit comes from adding a Supertrickler or AutoTrickler, and the benefit you get is time. If you've loaded on a Ohaus beam scale, you'll know how long it took to settle. Now, throwing a charge is done in seconds. To me, that time savings was worth the money

markl323 · Jul 29, 2023

Does internal capacity change after firing or after full sizing?

canezach · Jul 29, 2023

markl323 said:
Does internal capacity change after firing or after full sizing?

Yes, but it's all relative. Your internal capacity will change very slightly as the case grows by a couple of thousandths, but that also means all your fired brass will have roughly the same capacity, just like sized brass will be comparable to other sized brass. The biggest difference comes from virgin brass to fired

Seymour Fish · Jul 31, 2023

markl323 said:
Does internal capacity change after firing or after full sizing?

Yes. Both

straightshooter1 · Jul 31, 2023

markl323 said:
Does internal capacity change after firing or after full sizing?

Yes. But the difference between the two has little to no effect on a particular powder charge's since whether a cartridge's body has been sized or not, the maximum internal volume is limited to the dimensions of the rifle chamber during firing and it's that volume that's at play. This is why one will get the same velocities with the case being neck sized only or full length sized.

Doom · Jul 31, 2023

straightshooter1 said:
Yes. But the difference between the two has little to no effect on a particular powder charge's since whether a cartridge's body has been sized or not, the maximum internal volume is limited to the dimensions of the rifle chamber during firing and it's that volume that's at play. This is why one will get the same velocities with the case being neck sized only or full length sized.

The real volume of interest as others have pointed out is the chamber since the case expands to fill the chamber and then the chamber and case continue to expand together. Obviously the case takes up some of that total volume and the as fired volume is what matters. Obviously a fired neck sized case is going to have a certain volume and a full length sized case will have less if you were to measure both.

The case begins to expand at very low pressures. This expansion requires energy and that energy comes at the expense of the energy available to the bullet. The more the case has to expand the more that energy is reduced. The degree to which this reduces velocity will ultimately depend on the dimensional differences between the actual chamber volume and the FLS die. In theory the velocity must be less.

There are threads on this subject where some have claimed velocity differences of 30 fps between neck/bumped cases and full length sized cases. A difference this large seems excessive and I have not seen the specific data nor have I tested for the difference myself. I can say that using the OCW method with 223 and 308 I have not seen a change in the charge required whether the case was new, full length resized or neck sized. Or maybe I can't shoot the difference!

canezach said:
I've been using the 120i and AutoTrickler since it first came out. No, I didn't see significant improvements in SD or ES over my ChargeMaster, and if you are, there's something in your reloading process you need to fix. If an extra 0.05 grains up or down is making that big of a difference in velocities, something else is wrong because if you loaded 20 rounds each at 42.0 and 42.1 grains, you'll have a lot of overlapping velocities. The single largest improvement you can make your velocities more consistent is to go to quality brass with consistent internal capacity or sort the brass you do have by internal capacity. The next largest improvement you can make is to have consistent neck tension.

The scale doesn't change a thing by itself. The benefit comes from adding a Supertrickler or AutoTrickler, and the benefit you get is time. If you've loaded on a Ohaus beam scale, you'll know how long it took to settle. Now, throwing a charge is done in seconds. To me, that time savings was worth the money

While I don't use the a 120i or Autotrickler the one thing that will cause the Chargemaster to throw fairly large variations between charges is trying to speed up the reloading process since it ends up with too much powder in the feed tube during the trickle mode and drops large clumps of powder at one cycle. This is the cause of overthrows on the Chargemaster.

canezach · Jul 31, 2023

Doom said:
The real volume of interest as others have pointed out is the chamber since the case expands to fill the chamber and then the chamber and case continue to expand together. Obviously the case takes up some of that total volume and the as fired volume is what matters. Obviously a fired neck sized case is going to have a certain volume and a full length sized case will have less if you were to measure both.

The case begins to expand at very low pressures. This expansion requires energy and that energy comes at the expense of the energy available to the bullet. The more the case has to expand the more that energy is reduced. The degree to which this reduces velocity will ultimately depend on the dimensional differences between the actual chamber volume and the FLS die. In theory the velocity must be less.

There are threads on this subject where some have claimed velocity differences of 30 fps between neck/bumped cases and full length sized cases. A difference this large seems excessive and I have not seen the specific data nor have I tested for the difference myself. I can say that using the OCW method with 223 and 308 I have not seen a change in the charge required whether the case was new, full length resized or neck sized. Or maybe I can't shoot the difference!

While I don't use the a 120i or Autotrickler the one thing that will cause the Chargemaster to throw fairly large variations between charges is trying to speed up the reloading process since it ends up with too much powder in the feed tube during the trickle mode and drops large clumps of powder at one cycle. This is the cause of overthrows on the Chargemaster.

Correct. I remember fine tuning my ChargeMaster so it would throw a "reliable" charge more often than not. That involved tuning the time/speed for each setting so it would stay fast longer, but that also meant slow longer, too, so it wouldn't have as many overthrows while still maintaining a good amount of speed.

With that said, if you're (not you, but any user) getting fluctuations in charge weight significant enough to have a noticeable difference in velocity, either your Chargemaster is screwed up and is throwing 42.5 grains, but reading 42.1, or you're not paying attention to the overthrows and just dumping them into a case

JerkyFreak · Jul 31, 2023

There are a few variables with the CM. If you let the charge it just poured sit for a minute longer, with the next charge the zero will have changed. Keeping the pan off longer than usual causes a temporary shift in zero. If you breath on the pan during the period that it is automatically zeroing, the zero changes. If the AC kicks in at the same time that the pool pump is on and the wife is cooking the zero changes. And there is no outside indication that anything has changed.

Extreme cases the charge can be off by as much as 0.4 gr. I have measured that difference once. And yes, 30 fps difference is noticeable at 800m; specially if the ambient temperature have moved the load to the edge of the node.

markl323 · Jul 31, 2023

first thanks everyone for responding, whether you think the 120i helps or not.

my unit just arrived today and I did some quick tests. I powered on both the Chargemaster Link and the 120i for 30m then calibrated both of them.

I used the Chargemaster to dispense 41.8gr 17 times. each time if it reads differently, I would put that pile back. if not I move it to the 120i to see what it shows, and below are the numbers.

41.74 (X)
41.78
41.82
41.72 (X)
41.76
41.76
41.88 (X)
41.78
42.02 (X)
41.76
41.92 (X)
41.84
41.76
41.82
41.94 (X)
41.74 (X)
41.90 (X)

straightshooter1 · Jul 31, 2023

markl323 said:
first thanks everyone for responding, whether you think the 120i helps or not.

my unit just arrived today and I did some quick tests. I powered on both the Chargemaster Link and the 120i for 30m then calibrated both of them.

I used the Chargemaster to dispense 41.8gr 17 times. each time if it reads differently, I would put that pile back. if not I move it to the 120i to see what it shows, and below are the numbers.

41.74 (X)
41.78
41.82
41.72 (X)
41.76
41.76
41.88 (X)
41.78
42.02 (X)
41.76
41.92 (X)
41.84
41.76
41.82
41.94 (X)
41.74 (X)
41.90 (X)

Same kind of results I got doing the same kind of test with some different powders:

Does A&D 120i scale make a big difference?

For those who upgraded to this scale after using a +/-1 0.1 grain scale, did you see noticeable improvements in your ES & SD after upgrading? If you had the "before" and "after" numbers, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

www.snipershide.com

912173 · Aug 2, 2023

markl323 said:
first thanks everyone for responding, whether you think the 120i helps or not.

my unit just arrived today and I did some quick tests. I powered on both the Chargemaster Link and the 120i for 30m then calibrated both of them.

I used the Chargemaster to dispense 41.8gr 17 times. each time if it reads differently, I would put that pile back. if not I move it to the 120i to see what it shows, and below are the numbers.

41.74 (X)
41.78
41.82
41.72 (X)
41.76
41.76
41.88 (X)
41.78
42.02 (X)
41.76
41.92 (X)
41.84
41.76
41.82
41.94 (X)
41.74 (X)
41.90 (X)

What is the (X) for?

KnowNothing256 · Aug 2, 2023

912173 said:
What is the (X) for?

Looks like "doesn't round to 41.8," so he's saying it's an incorrect throw. There's one in there that's 0.2gr off, that's not great.

markl323 · Aug 2, 2023

KnowNothing256 said:
Looks like "doesn't round to 41.8," so he's saying it's an incorrect throw. There's one in there that's 0.2gr off, that's not great.

Right. One clarification and that is I don’t know if the CM is off, the 120i is off or both are off and one is more accurate than the other. I will see if I can go to the range this weekend and measure the new ES and SD.

Taylorbok · Aug 2, 2023

I never saw an improvement over CM. But it is faster and more consistent. That being said when I had the CM I was using an old optical chrony, I've since upgraded to a LR...
I run the V4 and I love it.

markl323 · Aug 3, 2023

Taylorbok said:
I never saw an improvement over CM. But it is faster and more consistent. That being said when I had the CM I was using an old optical chrony, I've since upgraded to a LR...
I run the V4 and I love it.

curios what numbers do you get?

straightshooter1 · Aug 3, 2023

Taylorbok said:
I never saw an improvement over CM. But it is faster and more consistent. That being said when I had the CM I was using an old optical chrony, I've since upgraded to a LR...
I run the V4 and I love it.

When I looked at my numbers in that little test I've shown here there was an ES of .14 grs and in some cases .12 grs. Most of the measurements were smaller, but that's beside the point; it only takes one out of a set. If .14 grains doesn't make a difference on one's targets, then . . . ???

Taylorbok · Aug 4, 2023

markl323 said:
curios what numbers do you get?

Numbers for what?

straightshooter1 said:
When I looked at my numbers in that little test I've shown here there was an ES of .14 grs and in some cases .12 grs. Most of the measurements were smaller, but that's beside the point; it only takes one out of a set. If .14 grains doesn't make a difference on one's targets, then . . . ???

I don't have an answer for you.

Doom · Aug 4, 2023

Taylorbok said:
Numbers for what?

I don't have an answer for you.

Put in perspective 0.14 grain ES of H4350 in a 6.5 creedoor with a 144 gr Berger at 2700 fps is going to be on the order of +/- 9fps. At 1000yds that works out +/- 1.25" or a ~.125 MOA.

In 308 at 2650 fps that ~9fps is +/-1.8" with a 168 Berger Match Target. That's ~.18 MOA.

JerkyFreak · Aug 4, 2023

Doom said:
Put in perspective 0.14 grain ES of H4350 in a 6.5 creedoor with a 144 gr Berger at 2700 fps is going to be on the order of +/- 9fps. At 1000yds that works out +/- 1.25" or a ~.125 MOA.

In 308 at 2650 fps that ~9fps is +/-1.8" with a 168 Berger Match Target. That's ~.18 MOA.

If matches were won by averages alone I would agree with you. PRS, silhouette, service rifle and other sports where precision is not that important, sure.

You win with the average, but you lose your top spot with the extremes. 20 fps faster than average at 1000 yards puts you out the top of the bull in F-class. If you do that more than your competitors, chances are you won't win.

DeathBeforeDismount · Aug 4, 2023

Doom said:
Put in perspective 0.14 grain ES of H4350 in a 6.5 creedoor with a 144 gr Berger at 2700 fps is going to be on the order of +/- 9fps. At 1000yds that works out +/- 1.25" or a ~.125 MOA.

In 308 at 2650 fps that ~9fps is +/-1.8" with a 168 Berger Match Target. That's ~.18 MOA.

Laughable. .14 gr is much much much more than a 9fps spread. A .04 grain spread is around 30-40 fps over a long string, with H4350.

Some of you are delusional.

canezach · Aug 4, 2023

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Laughable. .14 gr is much much much more than a 9fps spread. A .04 grain spread is around 30-40 fps over a long string, with H4350.

Some of you are delusional.

You must be thinking of something else if you think 0.04 grains will affect muzzle velocity by 30 to 40 fps. 0.04 grains is equivalent to TWO kernels of H4350 or Varget, somewhere around 1.25 to 1.33 kernels of Reloder 16, and it's ONE kernel of Reloder 23 due to its density. .

41.0 grains of Reloder 16 in Norma brass out of all 6.5 Creedmoor SP10 was 2735
41.2 was 2752

Alpha brass, Reloder 16, 26" Desert Tech Benchmark 6.5 Creedmoor barrel
38.0 average 2731
38.3 average 2745
38.6 average 2764

Prime brass 6.5 Creedmoor 24" Proof barrel Accuracy International Reloder 16
40.6 average 2729
40.8 2745
41.0 2760

Starline brass Reloder 16 25 Creedmoor Desert Tech barrel
42.2 2966
42.5 2982
42.8 3019

Lapua brass Reloder 16 25 Creedmoor Accuracy International barrel
40.8 2934
41.1 2952
41.4 2958

I only included Creedmoor cases and Reloder 16 in my response, but I can show the same with Varget, H4350, Reloder 23 and 26, H4831SC and H1000, or any other powder. In every instance, but especially when doing 0.20 grain increments, one charge weight had similar, sometimes overlapping, velocities as the preceding charge weight, where the low velocity from the higher charge weight as almost identical to the high velocity from the lower charge weight. If 0.04 grains is throwing your velocities off by 30 to 40 MPH, you're doing something wrong before you've ever thrown the powder.

Edit: and this is why I'm saying the FX120 isn't going to magically cure your ES or SD woes. The difference between the Chargemaster and the FX is pretty low, but if your Chargemaster is drifting so badly that you're seeing 0.2 grain or more differences, something is wrong with the Chargemaster. The one thing the FX gives you, when combined with a Supertrickler or AutoTrickler, is speed and accuracy at speed. You'll be throwing consistent charges before you can finish seating your bullet.

Doom · Aug 4, 2023

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Some of you are delusional.

And some are brain dead.

Cascade Hemi · Aug 4, 2023

Velocity increases are not linear with powder charge increases.

DeathBeforeDismount · Aug 4, 2023

canezach said:
You must be thinking of something else if you think 0.04 grains will affect muzzle velocity by 30 to 40 fps. 0.04 grains is equivalent to TWO kernels of H4350 and maybe, MAYBE 1.5 kernels of Reloder 16.

41.0 grains of Reloder 16 in Norma brass out of all 6.5 Creedmoor SP10 was 2735
41.2 was 2752

Alpha brass, Reloder 16, 26" Desert Tech Benchmark 6.5 Creedmoor barrel
38.0 average 2731
38.3 average 2745
38.6 average 2764

Prime brass 6.5 Creedmoor 24" Proof barrel Accuracy International Reloder 16
40.6 average 2729
40.8 2745
41.0 2760

Starline brass Reloder 16 25 Creedmoor Desert Tech barrel
42.2 2966
42.5 2982
42.8 3019

Lapua brass Reloder 16 25 Creedmoor Accuracy International barrel
40.8 2934
41.1 2952
41.4 2958

I only included Creedmoor cases and Reloder 16 in my response, but I can show the same with Varget, H4350, Reloder 23 and 26, H4831SC and H1000, or any other powder. In every instance, but especially when doing 0.20 grain increments, one charge weight had similar, sometimes overlapping, velocities as the preceding charge weight, where the low velocity from the higher charge weight as almost identical to the high velocity from the lower charge weight. If 0.04 grains is throwing your velocities off by 30 to 40 MPH, you're doing something wrong before you've ever thrown the powder.

Edit: and this is why I'm saying the FX120 isn't going to magically cure your ES or SD woes. The difference between the Chargemaster and the FX is pretty low, but if your Chargemaster is drifting so badly that you're seeing 0.2 grain or more differences, something is wrong with the Chargemaster. The one thing the FX gives you, when combined with a Supertrickler or AutoTrickler, is speed and accuracy at speed. You'll be throwing consistent charges before you can finish seating your bullet.

Bullshit.
All I shoot is H4350. Berger Bullets, Alpha Brass, Annealed via AMP, FL bushing and mandrel for .002 neck tension. Hit with henderson ever firing to ensure chamfer is touched up and cases are all exactly the same length Micrometer seat, Every 5 rounds get checked CBTO along the way. Loaded with a AT or Supertrickler with FX120i.

Same deal with 6.5CM, Lapua brass, same process. Every charge is within .04 of each other (-+.02)

The chargemaster is not as accurate. I came from one and watched my SD and ES both tighen up considerably going to the autotrickler with nothing else changing.

As has been said, charges to velocity is not linear, If it is, we wouldn't have to test to find the velocity, it would be a simple calculation.

Doing all that, if I can find a load/seating depth the gun likes, I am looking at a 3-5 SD with maybe a 20-30 ES over a 10-30 shot string.. That is WITH a .04 variance of powder charge. I could tighten it up if I used a scale that measured an order of magnitude smaller. I would probably be cutting kernels with an exacto knife like my ELR buddies do to get the numbers smaller.

You are talking out of your ass and clearly do not understand whats going on inside the gun. You over here talking about MPH LOL.

Doom · Aug 4, 2023

JerkyFreak said:
You win with the average, but you lose your top spot with the extremes. 20 fps faster than average at 1000 yards puts you out the top of the bull in F-class. If you do that more than your competitors, chances are you won't win.

I miss your point. Assuming a ES of .14 gr (.36 MOA) is not outside the .5 MOA X ring. I will admit that I posted the spread assuming the spread in weight is somewhat uniform around the average.

But, if I were shooting F-Class competitively I would not be using a Chargemaster.

markl323 · Aug 4, 2023

Cascade Hemi said:
Velocity increases are not linear with powder charge increases.

do you have the formula?

canezach · Aug 4, 2023

markl323 said:
do you have the formula?

There isn't one. One kernel doesn't equal X% increase because there are too many variables involved. That's why it isn't linear and it's why you see overlapping velocities at different charge weights.

Edit: I've never used it, but QuickLoad is used by a lot of people as a predictive tool and it is apparently very good, as long as the data you input is accurate

straightshooter1 · Aug 4, 2023

Doom said:
I miss your point. Assuming a ES of .14 gr (.36 MOA) is not outside the .5 MOA X ring. I will admit that I posted the spread assuming the spread in weight is somewhat uniform around the average.

But, if I were shooting F-Class competitively I would not be using a Chargemaster.

. . . nor would I if I were a competing benchrest shooter.

Depending on the caliber and the bullets being used (as well as other things like burn rate and temperature), .14 gr can make a big difference . . . or not. That's why I ended my post with "If .14 grains doesn't make a difference on one's targets, then . . . ???".

With my .308 with AR-Comp pushing 169 SMK's, .14 grs makes ~16 fps difference.

canezach · Aug 4, 2023

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Bullshit.
All I shoot is H4350. Berger Bullets, Alpha Brass, Annealed via AMP, FL bushing and mandrel for .002 neck tension. Hit with henderson ever firing to ensure chamfer is touched up and cases are all exactly the same length Micrometer seat, Every 5 rounds get checked CBTO along the way. Loaded with a AT or Supertrickler with FX120i.

Same deal with 6.5CM, Lapua brass, same process. Every charge is within .04 of each other (-+.02)

The chargemaster is not as accurate. I came from one and watched my SD and ES both tighen up considerably going to the autotrickler with nothing else changing.

As has been said, charges to velocity is not linear, If it is, we wouldn't have to test to find the velocity, it would be a simple calculation.

Doing all that, if I can find a load/seating depth the gun likes, I am looking at a 3-5 SD with maybe a 20-30 ES over a 10-30 shot string.. That is WITH a .04 variance of powder charge. I could tighten it up if I used a scale that measured an order of magnitude smaller. I would probably be cutting kernels with an exacto knife like my ELR buddies do to get the numbers smaller.

You are talking out of your ass and clearly do not understand whats going on inside the gun. You over here talking about MPH LOL.

Bullshit? I've given you the average velocity spreads over 0.6 or more grains, and you could go to the Reloading Depot, or pull up any of the posts from guys doing velocity ladders to see the same. Not once did I ever say velocity increases were linear, but what I have always said is the individual velocities over a string of fire, let's say 5 rounds each, at 41.0 and 41.2 (two hypothetical charge weights) WILL have either similar velocities or even overlapping velocities. If you think TWO kernels of H4350 are going to alter your muzzle velocity by 30 to 40 FPS, you are screwing something up well before you're pouring powder into the brass. It's funny how a significant percentage of this site could make great ammo with low SD and ES on the Chargemaster, but you're seeing 30 to 40 fps variations on 2 kernels?!

Seymour Fish · Aug 4, 2023

Doom said:
Put in perspective 0.14 grain ES of H4350 in a 6.5 creedoor with a 144 gr Berger at 2700 fps is going to be on the order of +/- 9fps. At 1000yds that works out +/- 1.25" or a ~.125 MOA.

In 308 at 2650 fps that ~9fps is +/-1.8" with a 168 Berger Match Target. That's ~.18 MOA.

Put in a real-world scenario at 1000, your numbers match experience, under ideal conditions. If you weigh to one kernel on the FX, and load several 3 to 5 round lots at 0.1 gr increments, the POI will move up by roughly your calculated amount with each increase. The group size and shape will also change. The advantage is to discover the load which shoots absolutely flat waterline, as it is death in the wind, yet often only 0.1 gr away from the most accurate load.

Doom · Aug 5, 2023

The velocity I quoted (9 fps) for 4350 is from Gordon's Reloading Tool (GRT). A program similar to Quickload (QL) and benchmarked against QL. For the 175 SMK and Varget the same 9 fps applies. If you are trying to measure the difference in velocity for a 0.1gr increase in powder charge you are going to have an issue with separating the effects of powder weight as opposed to other variations in neck tension, powder orientation, primer effects, bullet variations, measurement uncertainty.

As for linearity it is true that velocity versus powder charge is not linear but in the normal loading range of cartridge compatible powders it is very close to linear. The plot is for 308W and Varget from GRT for a 3 gr range. GRT (and QL) simulate the the powder effects only holding all the other variables constant. If you look at the lower velocity increments you see the effects of decreased filled ratio and lower pressure along with lower burnout have on the charges.

As for testing, to properly test for changes in powder charge, to be correct only the powder charge would be changed but unfortunately when we try to do this we are actually changing everything. The case, bullet, neck friction, case volume, barrel condition, powder (geometry) powder position, primer, seating depth, chamber temperature, instrument uncertainty, etc. We can minimize these effects but we can never exactly duplicate one shot to the next. It is all of these factors that contribute to the standard deviation and extreme spread of a given load.

To the point that @straightshooter1 made (and I am not challenging his statement) he may well measure a velocity difference of 16 fps. However assigning all of the difference to powder would be an error for reasons given above. It is important to understand that chromograph error can affect the difference. All chronographs that I am familiar with state total accuracy which leaves a high level of uncertainty in the velocity measurements. Total error is a combination of bias error and precision error. Bias is a constant error at any given velocity. It can change over a large velocity range but for small changes in velocity can be considered constant. Precision is a measure the same value over multiple measurements. Considering the Labrador, which is about as "accurate" as any with a .1% error of reading, we determine that for a true velocity of 2650 fps it would read between 2647.2 and 2652.7 fps 95% of the time. That is a wide range. without knowing the Bias and precision separately we can only state that any mean (average) is actually between those values. When we look at the difference between two different velocities that are close together the bias error can be ignored and the difference is driven by precision. In a testing environment without other information we would be forced to consider that all of the inaccuracy is in precision.

DeathBeforeDismount · Aug 5, 2023

When I get to a PC I'm going to explain how wrong you are.

Doom · Aug 5, 2023

straightshooter1 said:
Depending on the caliber and the bullets being used (as well as other things like burn rate and temperature), .14 gr can make a big difference . . . or not. That's why I ended my post with "If .14 grains doesn't make a difference on one's targets, then . . . ???".

I intended to comment on this in that earlier post but didn't. You are absolutely correct that caliber/cartridge is going to have different results. If we talk 223 then a tenth of a grain is going to be on the order of probably 12 fps and it will very to some extent with bullet weight. The reverse is also true with the large magnum cartridges where the difference in velocity difference will be less.

Cascade Hemi · Aug 6, 2023

DeathBeforeDismount said:
When I get to a PC I'm going to show my ass some more.

Put your new reloading room to use and unplug your computer for a while. Please.

MarkyMark007 · Aug 14, 2023

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Bullshit.
All I shoot is H4350. Berger Bullets, Alpha Brass, Annealed via AMP, FL bushing and mandrel for .002 neck tension. Hit with henderson ever firing to ensure chamfer is touched up and cases are all exactly the same length Micrometer seat, Every 5 rounds get checked CBTO along the way. Loaded with a AT or Supertrickler with FX120i.

Same deal with 6.5CM, Lapua brass, same process. Every charge is within .04 of each other (-+.02)

The chargemaster is not as accurate. I came from one and watched my SD and ES both tighen up considerably going to the autotrickler with nothing else changing.

As has been said, charges to velocity is not linear, If it is, we wouldn't have to test to find the velocity, it would be a simple calculation.

Doing all that, if I can find a load/seating depth the gun likes, I am looking at a 3-5 SD with maybe a 20-30 ES over a 10-30 shot string.. That is WITH a .04 variance of powder charge. I could tighten it up if I used a scale that measured an order of magnitude smaller. I would probably be cutting kernels with an exacto knife like my ELR buddies do to get the numbers smaller.

You are talking out of your ass and clearly do not understand whats going on inside the gun. You over here talking about MPH LOL.

you are stupid as fuck and dont know shit! everything you wrote is WRONG !

CEO10KaDAY · Feb 27, 2024

markl323 said:
cheapest price I found is here https://ceproducts.shop/

I just bought one from them - and immediately regret the fact I sent money overseas for the scale....?

Electric B · Mar 5, 2024

Taylorbok · Mar 5, 2024

CEO10KaDAY said:
I just bought one from them - and immediately regret the fact I sent money overseas for the scale....?

CE is a Canadian company so over seas is a stretch. I honestly never even looked where the scale was made, it's not like you have many options.

db2000 · Mar 5, 2024

markl323 said:
For those who upgraded to this scale after using a +/-1 0.1 grain scale, did you see noticeable improvements in your ES & SD after upgrading? If you had the "before" and "after" numbers, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

My consistency improved and certainly it has saves a ton of time.
That being said, I became really accurate using my simple Hornady digital scale that came with my loading press package/kit. It’s an inexpensive, small scale. I learned its nuances and when I felt it was off tare and potentially inaccurate I dumped the load. I’ve achieved low SD/ES with it. It was time consuming and I was not as consistent as stated.

tinker · Mar 6, 2024

I am glad i found this post.

I was considering getting one of these over my chargemaster. Mostly because I like toys.
But now I realize I don't shoot well enough to even see the benefit of it.

I am lucky when I shoot sub 1/2 moa. I need to spend more time on fundamentals and just plain shoot more.
But you guys really think .1gr makes a HUGE difference........I'm NOT calling BS but I doubt most of us could ever see a benefit.
Heck I'm still trying to get the hang of neck sizing for neck tension.

Does anyone else think when someone calls someone else an idiot, that that person doing the calling is the real idiot?
Sure is fun to watch though.

JerkyFreak · Mar 7, 2024

0.1gr Varget is roughly equivalent to 6 fps. You decide if that is acceptable for your application.

With the Chargemaster you can be 0.3gr off without knowing it. Hunters and most shooters won't notice any ill effects; long range might see a difference though. And SD snobs

CEO10KaDAY · Mar 7, 2024

After using the A&D for the first time I achieved this for my ES/SD

Recipe
300 gr Berger .338 OTM
91 gr retumbo
Lapua brass
Cci 250
Base to ogive of 3.055 inch

That’s a single digit spread.

tinker · Mar 7, 2024

JerkyFreak said:
0.1gr Varget is roughly equivalent to 6 fps. You decide if that is acceptable for your application.

With the Chargemaster you can be 0.3gr off without knowing it. Hunters and most shooters won't notice any ill effects; long range might see a difference though. And SD snobs

culd you please explain to me how my CM can be off as much as .3?

I wait for the beep because yes sometimes it will run over but then I dump it and throw another. Even my 11 yr old son does that.

Are you implying we are too dumb too wait for the scale to settle?

My SD's with my CM are in the teens and ES in the 20-30s. I would imagine it won't get better with a more accurate scale as I am not going to sort primers or point bullets etc.

I think more people obsess over things that won't really matter. If your SDs are that low, why are you not out there beating eric cortina and making him look like a fool?

Electric B · Mar 7, 2024

I just got a 120, last week
Here is a pic (if you can read my chicken scratch)

The left side is 43gr and the right side is 43.5, using my CM to drop the powder. Then using the 120 to check the weights.

Taylorbok · Mar 7, 2024

Electric B said:
I just got a 120, last week
Here is a pic (if you can read my chicken scratch)

The left side is 43gr and the right side is 43.5, using my CM to drop the powder. Then using the 120 to check the weights.

This is closer to what I found also.

tinker said:
If your SDs are that low, why are you not out there beating eric cortina and making him look like a fool?

ES/SD isn't everything, there is a lot more that goes into making ammo that shoots that well, my SD's are in the single digits fyi
F-class is boring and takes up a fuck ton of time and not like it's lucrative to be a champion, the only reason would be if you really enjoyed that sport.

kthomas · Mar 7, 2024

tinker said:
culd you please explain to me how my CM can be off as much as .3?

I wait for the beep because yes sometimes it will run over but then I dump it and throw another. Even my 11 yr old son does that.

Are you implying we are too dumb too wait for the scale to settle?

My SD's with my CM are in the teens and ES in the 20-30s. I would imagine it won't get better with a more accurate scale as I am not going to sort primers or point bullets etc.

I think more people obsess over things that won't really matter. If your SDs are that low, why are you not out there beating eric cortina and making him look like a fool?

FYI, you don't need to sort primers, brass, point bullets or do a lot of little intricate steps to get single digit SD's.

Mauser48 · Mar 23, 2024

I'm ready to step into an a&d. Is CE products still the best place to buy? I believe it comes with a check weight, are there any other accessories I should get with it?

Having trouble using the site?

Does A&D 120i scale make a big difference?

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