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That is a bold statement. I would be interested in your comparisons. I have not been disappointed by either, but empirically, I can tell you we outsell NF over Razor by at least 8:1, and the buyers tell me that they appreciate the clarity of the image at extremely long distances.Compared both. Review to come hopefully soon. Gen 3 is better.735 is still a good scope don't get me wrong but the gen 3 glass is better
I can get some triggercam pics in the next few days but I think a 735 Atacr at $2800 is a really good price. Above $3k not so much. Especially in the $3500 range.That is a bold statement. I would be interested in your comparisons. I have not been disappointed by either, but empirically, I can tell you we outsell NF over Razor by at least 8:1, and the buyers tell me that they appreciate the clarity of the image at extremely long distances.
Durability, the NF is the winner, and reticles are personal, but the Mil-XT and the Mil-C and R are very popular for a clean long-distance shot without holdovers. 6-36x is a great range, and the Razor and S&B both have good offerings. ZCO is also very good at extremely long distances.
I have always found that the lower the zoom factor - all things being equal - the less distortion. So, NF is 5x and Razor is 6x. I have been very impressed with the image of the Razor, but at that level or precision, there are so many factors, many of them personal, like the tactile feel of the turret, and click and the holdover of the reticle, that I would find it hard to declare one a winner over the other without more input from OP on how he intends to use it. Unlike some of the long-range Razors from 3 years ago, I have not seen the failures out of the box with the Razor as existed in the past, which is great. The 4.5-27 (as I recall), had a number of just bad out-of-the-box poor quality control, but the warranty fixed any problems.
Price is not that different for a great scope, and actual purchase prices on NF tend to be lower from MSRP than Razor, but much will depend upon availability at the time. When I mention price, what I am saying is you get to a point, where $2,400 or $2,800 is no big difference if you really like one scope over the other.
Very good info, I had a NF 7-35x56 ATACR that I loved, I used the scope for PRS type shooting matches. I sold that scope to a buddy a few months back. I’m looking at ordering up another one, but wanted to hear peoples thoughts on that scope compared to the razor gen 3. A lower price is always welcome, but not at the sacrifice of quality or durability. I appreciate the input.That is a bold statement. I would be interested in your comparisons. I have not been disappointed by either, but empirically, I can tell you we outsell NF over Razor by at least 8:1, and the buyers tell me that they appreciate the clarity of the image at extremely long distances.
Durability, the NF is the winner, and reticles are personal, but the Mil-XT and the Mil-C and R are very popular for a clean long-distance shot without holdovers. 6-36x is a great range, and the Razor and S&B both have good offerings. ZCO is also very good at extremely long distances.
I have always found that the lower the zoom factor - all things being equal - the less distortion. So, NF is 5x and Razor is 6x. I have been very impressed with the image of the Razor, but at that level or precision, there are so many factors, many of them personal, like the tactile feel of the turret, and click and the holdover of the reticle, that I would find it hard to declare one a winner over the other without more input from OP on how he intends to use it. Unlike some of the long-range Razors from 3 years ago, I have not seen the failures out of the box with the Razor as existed in the past, which is great. The 4.5-27 (as I recall), had a number of just bad out-of-the-box poor quality control, but the warranty fixed any problems.
Price is not that different for a great scope, and actual purchase prices on NF tend to be lower from MSRP than Razor, but much will depend upon availability at the time. When I mention price, what I am saying is you get to a point, where $2,400 or $2,800 is no big difference if you really like one scope over the other.
I wouldn't say NF is any more durable than any other top tier scope. Despite what their marketing will tell you. They will all break if you're hard enough on the gear. I have no problem running either in any match over shot. And that's been a ton of matches in some fucked up conditions over the years.Very good info, I had a NF 7-35x56 ATACR that I loved, I used the scope for PRC type shooting matches. I sold that scope to a buddy a few months back. I’m looking at ordering up another one, but wanted to hear peoples thoughts on that scope compared to the razor gen 3. A lower price is always welcome, but not at the sacrifice of quality or durability. I appreciate the input.
Lol I finished filming it but it's gonna be a lot of editing. I did 10 scopes.I would trust covertnoob, he knows his stuff, has great experience (actual field experience using his gear) and has an excellent track record of giving good advice on the Hide. So get out your review already . Ive been pondering a review of the G3 6-36 with a NF 7-35 for a while now but with a backlog of other gear to review just don't see that happening anytime soon.
I tend to agree that NF’s marketing is legendary when it comes to durability. They have numerous .mil contracts and stories of soldiers scopes still working with bullet holes, you can hammer spikes with them and shoot them while frozen solid in ice blocks, but could most of the other scopes in this class hold up as well? I would like to think so but their are no valid empirical tests to prove such and until that happens NF is likely to stay on top of the durability mound.
Tell us about the March... that's what the real connoisseurs wish to know ;-).Lol I finished filming it but it's gonna be a lot of editing. I did 10 scopes.
TT525
Zco
735 atacr
636 razor
Kahles DLR
PMii 525
Revic PMR
Mk5
Razor 2
March 5-42
And match use triggercam footage for most so it's a lot.
....
Lol that'll be a whole separate thread. I do really like a lot about it tho.Tell us about the March... that's what the real connoisseurs wish to know ;-).
Its a VERY true statement. I have owned just about every scope out there, and have buddies that still own them all. Have a ton of time behind them and the Gen 3 razor is a better optic than the ATACR 735.That is a bold statement. I would be interested in your comparisons. I have not been disappointed by either, but empirically, I can tell you we outsell NF over Razor by at least 8:1, and the buyers tell me that they appreciate the clarity of the image at extremely long distances.
Durability, the NF is the winner, and reticles are personal, but the Mil-XT and the Mil-C and R are very popular for a clean long-distance shot without holdovers. 6-36x is a great range, and the Razor and S&B both have good offerings. ZCO is also very good at extremely long distances.
I have always found that the lower the zoom factor - all things being equal - the less distortion. So, NF is 5x and Razor is 6x. I have been very impressed with the image of the Razor, but at that level or precision, there are so many factors, many of them personal, like the tactile feel of the turret, and click and the holdover of the reticle, that I would find it hard to declare one a winner over the other without more input from OP on how he intends to use it. Unlike some of the long-range Razors from 3 years ago, I have not seen the failures out of the box with the Razor as existed in the past, which is great. The 4.5-27 (as I recall), had a number of just bad out-of-the-box poor quality control, but the warranty fixed any problems.
Price is not that different for a great scope, and actual purchase prices on NF tend to be lower from MSRP than Razor, but much will depend upon availability at the time. When I mention price, what I am saying is you get to a point, where $2,400 or $2,800 is no big difference if you really like one scope over the other.
How many Gen 2 or Gen 3 razors have you warrantied? Stop comparing cheap garbage imports to premium offerings.I own the atacr 7-35 and will say it’s a very nice optic and holds its own against my ZCO
I’ve owned NF NXS to ATACR. Every model atacr’s except the 5-25. Also owned a few vortex viper pst and some cheaper and will hands down at that price choose NF
Reliability is the most important thing to me when it comes to optics. Vortex has an excellent customer service (best I’ve seen) but unfortunately I had to use it several times.
The Zeiss LRP S3 6-36x56 has incredible glass. Better than my new NF ATACR F1 5-25x56. And it’s built like a tank, too.Anyone compared these two scopes side by side, thoughts, differences?
Just wondering if you had a chance to check out a Zeiss S3 to see how it stacks up in this group?Lol I finished filming it but it's gonna be a lot of editing. I did 10 scopes.
TT525
Zco
735 atacr
636 razor
Kahles DLR
PMii 525
Revic PMR
Mk5
Razor 2
March 5-42
And match use triggercam footage for most so it's a lot.
Back on topic tho, I think the .mil spec aspect is a little overrated as far as "if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me" and those movie placements certainly don't hurt.
I appreciate the vote of confidence.
Quick findings off the top of my head, R3 the eyebox is great. Fantastic. Actually probably the best of any scope I've used.
FOV is huge (This brings up an interesting sub-conversaion about how accurate mag markings on scopes are in general) and based on TC stills that I have it's larger than TT. Which is obviously larger than an ATACR.
Big numbers at 10 mil per turn and a much more forgiving parallax than the ATACR.
Glass in certain aspects is subjective, but at the very least it's equal.
So all that for a lower price is why I say the R3 over ATACR.
Ziess s3 is gonna be a tier 2 optic. Their tier 1 is gonna be the s5. That being said I'd love to review one at some point and it's definitely on the list. I just haven't had the time or opportunity yet.Just wondering if you had a chance to check out a Zeiss S3 to see how it stacks up in this group?
Ziess s3 is gonna be a tier 2 optic. Their tier 1 is gonna be the s5. That being said I'd love to review one at some point and it's definitely on the list. I just haven't had the time or opportunity yet.
I assume you're excluding the Mil-XT... The Mil-XT and the EBR-7C are two of the closest reticles on the market. I can't think of another reticle more similar to either. IMO the Mil-XT is superior, although having the XMas tree go down to 28 MRAD or whatever is kind of dumb.NF reticles are dogshit
I love the Mil-XT reticle. I don’t see an advantage the EBR-7C has over the Mil-XT. Both are great reticles for hold overs with PRS type shooting.I assume you're excluding the Mil-XT... The Mil-XT and the EBR-7C are two of the closest reticles on the market. I can't think of another reticle more similar to either. IMO the Mil-XT is superior, although having the XMas tree go down to 28 MRAD or whatever is kind of dumb.
Generally though, I can't disagree... I have an NXS in a closet with one of these
edit: also NF illum sucks, should have daytime bright & brightness adjustment is dumb
Uh no. The Mil XT is WAY busier with a bunch of wind dots and shit cluttered everywhere. Its almost as bad as a T3.I assume you're excluding the Mil-XT... The Mil-XT and the EBR-7C are two of the closest reticles on the market. I can't think of another reticle more similar to either. IMO the Mil-XT is superior, although having the XMas tree go down to 28 MRAD or whatever is kind of dumb.
Generally though, I can't disagree... I have an NXS in a closet with one of these
edit: also NF illum sucks, should have daytime bright & brightness adjustment is dumb
Wrong, which is why top PRS shooters are migrating to simplier reticles, with less clutter for faster adjustments and less shit in the way obscuring spotting your shot. Look at the JTAC for example.I love the Mil-XT reticle. I don’t see an advantage the EBR-7C has over the Mil-XT. Both are great reticles for hold overs with PRS type shooting.
Probably why I’m never a top ten finisher..Wrong, which is why top PRS shooters are migrating to simplier reticles, with less clutter for faster adjustments and less shit in the way obscuring spotting your shot. Look at the JTAC for example.
clearly you’re thinking of a different reticleThe Mil XT is WAY busier with a bunch of wind dots and shit cluttered everywhere.
Since you seem a bit slow on the uptake.clearly you’re thinking of a different reticle
They might even beat you with their NF then make you mount it and shoot it to prove it holds zeroYeah, MIL-XT is one of the best reticles I've used. As for driving spikes with an ATACR and it still tracking/holding zero, there are other manufacturers who've done the same on video, but NF fanbois are the real marketing power of NF. They'll find you, wake you up in the middle of the night and shout you to death about how reliable NF is, lol.
I like the MIL-XT because of the flipping hashes. I swapped out my Athlon, Maven, Vortex, K525i, and M7XI, because it was hard for my eyes to pick out the difference between the .6 and .8 in a split second. It's obvious to me what the difference is with the flipped hashes. If mark is next to a MIL mark, it's .8 or .2. For reading fast, MIL-C/XT, SCR2-1/4, PR2, and JVCR all work amazingly for my eyes.[...] not to mention the retarded flipping .2 hash marks on the Mil XT that slow you down trying to figure out where the hell you are for holder overs and wind holds
Lol! I figured I’d goof off a bit.Hey, what did the PRS world champ shoot?
Now that I’ve stirred a bit, I’ll see myself out…
IIRC the 5-25 Mk5 is supposed to be a better scope than the 7-35 Mk5 and 25x is more than you need (I've only used the 5-25)Why aren’t the Leupold shooters using the 7-35
Same. But I also like the EBR-7D too. This is a diagram that may help some people use the Mil-XT more easily:I like the MIL-XT because of the flipping hashes.
One could ask the question: Nightforce has a 5-25 and 7-35 but there are no 5-25's used among the top shooters and likewise Leupold has both 5-25 and 7-35 scopes yet none of the top shooters use the 7-35, why is that?IIRC the 5-25 Mk5 is supposed to be a better scope than the 7-35 Mk5 and 25x is more than you need (I've only used the 5-25)
If that many shooters are doing well with either a PR2 or T3 in the 525 Mk 5, then it is possible to use basically any Xmas tree reticle on the market & do well
Same. But I also like the EBR-7D too. This is a diagram that may help some people use the Mil-XT more easily:
View attachment 8227891
Agreed. Personally and anecdotally I have never been able to utilize over 30x mag. As well 20x seems to be a sweet spot for me. In the ELR game I'd think elevation trumps magnification.One could ask the question: Nightforce has a 5-25 and 7-35 but there are no 5-25's used among the top shooters and likewise Leupold has both 5-25 and 7-35 scopes yet none of the top shooters use the 7-35, why is that?
I believe this tells us more about the performance of the scope optically verses the magnification range. Since Nightforce introduced the ATACR 7-35 (around 2018 IIRC) it quickly became the preferred scope of choice among ATACR owners, not so much because of its magnification range, but because the consensus was that it performed better than the 5-25 optically speaking. Likewise with the Leupold, it appears the consensus is that the 5-25 outperforms the 7-35 optically. But because of the popularity of the NF 7-35 in competition circles, the industry thought that the market was demanding higher magnification scopes, but I think the desire for the NF 7-35 had more to do with its optical performance than it did with the mag range over the 5-25 and I think the PRS results reflect that. I know a number of ELR shooters who've been shooting with the TT 5-25 and when asked if they plan to switch to the TT 7-35 the consensus has been a resounding no, these seasoned shooters know that higher magnification becomes more of a detriment as distance increases (because you're also increasing atmospheric distortion), so for a shooter who rarely goes above 16x to begin with doesn't see much benefit of having 35x at the top vs. 25x. Rimfire shooting or known distance paper shooting may be a different story, but if your Goldilocks zone is between 12x-20x then the need for greater than 25x just can't be justified for a lot of shooters. Now, if the TT 7-35 ends up being considerably better optically vs. the 5-25, or has better eyebox (it actually has narrower FOV) or better flare control and features like that, then I can see some shooters switching out, but it likely won't be for the magnification range but for better performance within the primary range they use.
Back to the original question, both the ATACR 7-35 and RG3 6-36 are excellent scopes and I don't think you can go wrong with either. The RG3 is a newer design and as such has some features that I believe give it a benefit over the ATACR (like wider FOV and more forgiving eyebox) but for some the turrets and reticle are going to weigh more strongly in the decision which is usually why I typically say, "at this level, choose the reticle you like the most" and that certainly applies here.
For real ELR (greater than 1.5 miles) elevation is not as important as most will be using a Charlie Tarac, so even though many might consider the 28 mrad limit of the TT to be a hindrance, because of the CT it's not that big of a deal. One of these days I'd love to get my hands on a March Genesis 6-60x56 as I hear this has excellent optics and extreme elevation without distortion of the optical path. But for most modern cartridges and PRS distances, even 28 mrad gets out well past 1500 yards...Agreed. Personally and anecdotally I have never been able to utilize over 30x mag. As well 20x seems to be a sweet spot for me. In the ELR game I'd think elevation trumps magnification.
I too like 18-20x most of the time when shooting prairie dogs. However, not everyone shoots ELR or PRS.Agreed. Personally and anecdotally I have never been able to utilize over 30x mag. As well 20x seems to be a sweet spot for me.
Most of the NF 7-35 users I’ve ran into at matches claim that they go with that scope over the 5-25 because it performs best at 14-17 power. Would that be specific to that scope or would the vortex G3 be similar?One could ask the question: Nightforce has a 5-25 and 7-35 but there are no 5-25's used among the top shooters and likewise Leupold has both 5-25 and 7-35 scopes yet none of the top shooters use the 7-35, why is that?
I believe this tells us more about the performance of the scope optically verses the magnification range. Since Nightforce introduced the ATACR 7-35 (around 2018 IIRC) it quickly became the preferred scope of choice among ATACR owners, not so much because of its magnification range, but because the consensus was that it performed better than the 5-25 optically speaking. Likewise with the Leupold, it appears the consensus is that the 5-25 outperforms the 7-35 optically. But because of the popularity of the NF 7-35 in competition circles, the industry thought that the market was demanding higher magnification scopes, but I think the desire for the NF 7-35 had more to do with its optical performance than it did with the mag range over the 5-25 and I think the PRS results reflect that. I know a number of ELR shooters who've been shooting with the TT 5-25 and when asked if they plan to switch to the TT 7-35 the consensus has been a resounding no, these seasoned shooters know that higher magnification becomes more of a detriment as distance increases (because you're also increasing atmospheric distortion), so for a shooter who rarely goes above 16x to begin with doesn't see much benefit of having 35x at the top vs. 25x. Rimfire shooting or known distance paper shooting may be a different story, but if your Goldilocks zone is between 12x-20x then the need for greater than 25x just can't be justified for a lot of shooters. Now, if the TT 7-35 ends up being considerably better optically vs. the 5-25, or has better eyebox (it actually has narrower FOV) or better flare control and features like that, then I can see some shooters switching out, but it likely won't be for the magnification range but for better performance within the primary range they use.
Back to the original question, both the ATACR 7-35 and RG3 6-36 are excellent scopes and I don't think you can go wrong with either. The RG3 is a newer design and as such has some features that I believe give it a benefit over the ATACR (like wider FOV and more forgiving eyebox) but for some the turrets and reticle are going to weigh more strongly in the decision which is usually why I typically say, "at this level, choose the reticle you like the most" and that certainly applies here.
Every scope has their sweet spot or Goldilocks zone, this is often somewhere in mid range of the magnification, so a 5-25 may have a sweet spot of 10-20 for example. This is why I try to do line resolution tests at different mag settings throughout to get an idea if any given scope struggles at a particular spot within the magnification extremes. The Vortex RG3 6-36 is one of those scopes that surprised me with excellent characteristics throughout the mag range, this is surprising given this scope uses a wide angle eyepiece, so not only do you get impressive performance throughout but also FOV is wider than most, so at any given magnification you'll be able to see more especially since the RG3 has impressive edge to edge sharpness. I have no reason to doubt the NF 7-35 does better in the 14-17 range, but based on those I've known to own this scope I'd venture to say it's an even greater range than that, in general I believe the ATACR 5-25 is known to be somewhat soft optically. I've been trying to source a NF ATACR 7-35 for a comparison with the RG3 specifically but haven't found a willing donor yetMost of the NF 7-35 users I’ve ran into at matches claim that they go with that scope over the 5-25 because it performs best at 14-17 power. Would that be specific to that scope or would the vortex G3 be similar?
Tell me where to send a 7-35, just know going into the review, you can’t keep it when you fall in love with it. . Don’t be surprised if you’re saying Tangent Theta who after the review.Every scope has their sweet spot or Goldilocks zone, this is often somewhere in mid range of the magnification, so a 5-25 may have a sweet spot of 10-20 for example. This is why I try to do line resolution tests at different mag settings throughout to get an idea if any given scope struggles at a particular spot within the magnification extremes. The Vortex RG3 6-36 is one of those scopes that surprised me with excellent characteristics throughout the mag range, this is surprising given this scope uses a wide angle eyepiece, so not only do you get impressive performance throughout but also FOV is wider than most, so at any given magnification you'll be able to see more especially since the RG3 has impressive edge to edge sharpness. I have no reason to doubt the NF 7-35 does better in the 14-17 range, but based on those I've known to own this scope I'd venture to say it's an even greater range than that, in general I believe the ATACR 5-25 is known to be somewhat soft optically. I've been trying to source a NF ATACR 7-35 for a comparison with the RG3 specifically but haven't found a willing donor yet
but I am yet to see any other manufacturer do a single durability video.