Night Vision Real Deal Wilcox/KVC/RQE/etc vs Chicom Knock-Offs - Buy American???

TheHorta

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  • Jan 17, 2014
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    Well… the time has come. It was only a couple of years ago when the difference between the “Legit” US-made / manufactured kit was clearly better and buying Chinesium was a crap shoot at best.

    Not so anymore.

    Chynah has upped their game almost overnight. Their thermals, at least in terms of performance, easily rival or, in some cases, exceed that of their American peers at non-trivial cost savings. This extends especially to the new crop of knock-off mounts and bridges, cloning the likes of GBRS, Wilcox, KVC/RQE, and many others.

    I have all of the genuine articles and figured I’d find out if the new breed of Chinesium is really “all that” when directly compared to Stars and Stripes manufacturers.

    Debate amongst yourselves as to whether or not your Red-Blooded Murican Patriotism will allow you to buy Yellow, but the results are in, and a $138 (delivered) Chynah KVC/RQE bridge is, for all practical, non-mil users, every bit as good as Knights’ $1,000 offering (that routinely sells on the used market for $1,500-2,000).

    Fit-and-finish are nearly indistinguishable from one another. I literally can’t tell which is which, aside from the screw hardware (Imperial on KVC, Metric on Chinkolium) and the weight (the C model is 0.5 ounces heavier). Both lock-up in a genuine Wilcox G24 equally as well and various dovetail devices lock into both slots identically.

    Functionally, they are identical.

    The Sotac/Chynah unit comes in a nice, little reusable plastic case with rippled foam.

    The KVC comes in a small, white plain cardboard box wrapped in a clear plastic bag. No foam, nothing.

    Perhaps under hard use in austere environments the KVC would hold up better, but that’s pure conjecture on my part, as I’m grasping for reasons to justify owning a mount that costs 10x as much but *may* deliver only 10% more value.

    I can see 2, maybe 3 times the price to have a “Made in the USA” sticker on the plain white box, but TEN?!

    Sotac is killing it right now. They have knock-offs of everything KVC makes, as well as Wilcox and others. iRay is pumping out serious NV and Thermal tech and updating/improving almost every year, where US manufacturers are lucky to refresh products every 5.

    I’m done paying premium prices for inferior products — or at least not superior. Let the DoD pay $4,000 for their hammers and toilet seats.

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    Imagine paying 600$ for a Wilcox Skeetir FTS mount with dubious QC when the 50$ SOTAC one work just fine.

    And… if you’re worried about durability, buy 2 or 3 to have spares onhand and still save 80%.

    The bottom-line reality is, MFGs like KAC and Wilcox just don’t care about the consumer market. It’s minuscule compared to their lucrative DoD contracts. No US Agency or Dept is going to buy Chinesium, and they know this, so having a captive client with bottomless pockets slows innovation and keeps prices artificially high, because competition doesn’t exist.
     
    At the risk of sounding like a fudd, is there any risk the Iray stuff has malicious software embedded in there?

    After hearing all the positive comments on the recent chinese thermals (and owning a Yoter C as a stop gap until a US clip on is released that fits my needs) I reluctantly agree (as I type this on my Macbook).

    Surely the US made stuff is still more durable and better collimated?
     
    At the risk of sounding like a fudd, is there any risk the Iray stuff has malicious software embedded in there?

    After hearing all the positive comments on the recent chinese thermals (and owning a Yoter C as a stop gap until a US clip on is released that fits my needs) I reluctantly agree (as I type this on my Macbook).

    Surely the US made stuff is still more durable and better collimated?

    Not fudd at all. I think it could be a legit concern, especially since most of the new devices are BT/WiFi enabled to make phone connectivity and image/video sharing more convenient.

    I haven’t seen or heard of anyone reporting suspicious “dial home” behavior or the like, but my tinfoil hat keeps whispering “but it IS Chynah” in my ear.
     
    At the risk of sounding like a fudd, is there any risk the Iray stuff has malicious software embedded in there?
    As opposed to globohomo/5 eyes mass spying on our own smart devices/social media/emails/Ring doorbells etc etc ?
    Backdoors in AMD PSP and Intel IME with their own independent TCP/IP stack.
    Is it a concern ? Just disable all connectivity, you can use a network scanner and check that it doesn’t transmit on any frequencies.
     
    Not fudd at all. I think it could be a legit concern, especially since most of the new devices are BT/WiFi enabled to make phone connectivity and image/video sharing more convenient.

    I haven’t seen or heard of anyone reporting suspicious “dial home” behavior or the like, but my tinfoil hat keeps whispering “but it IS Chynah” in my ear.
    Would be interesting to see how devices of different origin compare with regards to wireless signature
     
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    As opposed to globohomo/5 eyes mass spying on our own smart devices/social media/emails/Ring doorbells etc etc ?
    Backdoors in AMD PSP and Intel IME with their own independent TCP/IP stack.
    Is it a concern ? Just disable all connectivity, you can use a network scanner and check that it doesn’t transmit on any frequencies.
    If I want to really be alone, I don't mind leaving my phone on the counter when I head out (I actually prefer it).

    But ask me to leave my thermal at home, that's a bridge too far!!
     
    This is a timely topic. I've had an IOP order in for the kvc bridge for over 3 years now. The oss and k clips came in last year. I just ordered the knockoff kvc bridge and a set of oss earlier this afternoon. Hopefully the knockoff will be an acceptable alternative till the kvc comes available. Maybe it'll be good enough that I finally cancel the legit order? Either way, hopefully the knockoff doesn't take 3 years and I can actually test out my quick change dual 14 and thermal setup soon. The mod armory bridge puts the thermal at an uncomfortable angle with the tilted rectangular screen.
     
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    This is a timely topic. I've had an IOP order in for the kvc bridge for over 3 years now. The oss and k clips came in last year. I just ordered the knockoff kvc bridge and a set of oss earlier this afternoon. Hopefully the knockoff will be an acceptable alternative till the kvc comes available. Maybe it'll be good enough that I finally cancel the legit order? Either way, hopefully the knockoff doesn't take 3 years and I can actually test out my quick change dual 14 and thermal setup soon. The mod armory bridge puts the thermal at an uncomfortable angle with the tilted rectangular screen.
    It's surprisingly good.
    Running it on a Cadex mount so it's adjustable for height, PVS14 Right eye, RH25 Left Eye. No complaints, very sturdy, no play on the RH25 ADM pic dovetail. Thinking about buying another for the wife so that I can give her the -14 on night hikes.
     
    I got a knock off G24 last spring and wasn't overly impressed, can't remember if it was a SOTAC brand.
    Not sure if they got better. I don't even like the real G24 anyways, I've been running the Norotos TATM with a wilcox plate for a couple of years and now have switched to the superior Cadex with the CHIP mount, the true patrician way to wear nods.
    Wilcox can ride my nuts
     
    I got a knock off G24 last spring and wasn't overly impressed, can't remember if it was a SOTAC brand.
    Not sure if they got better. I don't even like the real G24 anyways, I've been running the Norotos TATM with a wilcox plate for a couple of years and now have switched to the superior Cadex with the CHIP mount, the true patrician way to wear nods.
    Wilcox can ride my nuts
    What?! You don’t like “The Wilcox Jiggle”?!

    Heathen.
     
    I got a knock off G24 last spring and wasn't overly impressed, can't remember if it was a SOTAC brand.
    Not sure if they got better. I don't even like the real G24 anyways, I've been running the Norotos TATM with a wilcox plate for a couple of years and now have switched to the superior Cadex with the CHIP mount, the true patrician way to wear nods.
    Wilcox can ride my nuts
    Does the Cadex mount not have any of the looseness the G24 has - the looseness that allows it to rotate up and down a little when in the open position?
     
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    I would say that using words like "clones" or "knock-offs" is bending the truth. Chinese are flat-out stealing patent-protected (for example, for Wilcox G24 see US10004289B2) designs and intellectual property that US (and European) companies developed over the years of market knowledge, R&D, serious engineering, field trials, etc. This applies to mounts. This also applies to thermals on a fundamental level (I hope we'll see some serious legal action soon!). Stolen goods are cheaper. Stolen goods can be much cheaper. But they are still stolen goods. It's an individual decision to buy or not to buy somebody's stolen property.
     
    I would say that using words like "clones" or "knock-offs" is bending the truth. Chinese are flat-out stealing patent-protected (for example, for Wilcox G24 see US10004289B2) designs and intellectual property that US (and European) companies developed over the years of market knowledge, R&D, serious engineering, field trials, etc. This applies to mounts. This also applies to thermals on a fundamental level (I hope we'll see some serious legal action soon!). Stolen goods are cheaper. Stolen goods can be much cheaper. But they are still stolen goods. It's an individual decision to buy or not to buy somebody's stolen property.

    Fair enough, but how long am I supposed to wait? Knights Armament has had my IOP order for OVER 3 years. I haven't cancelled with them. I am trying to buy from them, despite the fact they increased the price on me half way through the back order. People will buy their stuff if they'd produce it. So what other options do I have?
     
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    Fair enough, but how long am I supposed to wait? Knights Armament has had my IOP order for OVER 3 years. I haven't cancelled with them. I am trying to buy from them, despite the fact they increased the price on me half way through the back order. People will buy their stuff if they'd produce it. So what other options do I have?
    I hope that expanding your questions a bit will better reflect my take on them. "Fair enough, but how long am I supposed to wait before buying stolen goods?" And "What other options do I have before buying stolen goods?" However, I don't know your circumstances, and I don't know what's important/right for you.
     
    Fair enough, but how long am I supposed to wait? Knights Armament has had my IOP order for OVER 3 years. I haven't cancelled with them. I am trying to buy from them, despite the fact they increased the price on me half way through the back order. People will buy their stuff if they'd produce it. So what other options do I have?
    A company that increases the price of a back order item is....
     
    A company that increases the price of a back order item is....

    Well they have your best interest in mind of course!! Let’s make sure to defend them while they rape us on price and availability.

    I’m all for buy American whenever possible and I’m also all for not getting taken to the cleaners by people that don’t care about your business.
     
    Here's a thought. Most of the items discussed in this thread are copies, counterfeits, stolen IP that the Chinese likely would never have R&Ded themselves. Why would a person put money and effort into inventing the next generation of cool stuff if the CCP can just steal it, make it dirt cheap with slave labor and we're satisfied to save a few bucks?
     
    its the same deal as optics. Buy american where you can, but last I checked running something vastly inferior because you couldn't afford to buy anything american/european that is even remotely decent was considered a very silly position.

    Do I like the fact we have to have this conversation at all? no.

    But NV and thermal are becoming as important as a basic fighting rifle.

    other point to consider: Wilcox, KVC, etc are bound by contract to set the price for the civ world as the same as what they sell them to the gov for. this leaves two options: either they make civilian-only derivatives of items that have sufficient differences to not be bound by the contract, or we lobby our congresscritters to change the rules so they can sell it to us cheaper than they sell to uncle sam.
     
    Disclaimer:

    I’m all for you spending your money wherever you want to. I love American products just as much as the next person but I absolutely agree with the OP, if two things are the same and one is significantly less expensive, that’s a hard thing to pass up.


    The article below is a good read, and it’s eye opening. I posted it here to point out the genius of their strategy….flood the US market with inexpensive gear and use us as an R&D department. Gather our feedback, improve products, then equip the PLA with the improved product. The unfortunate (or fortunate) by-product of this game is that we get to enjoy some market variety and competition for our $$.

    Unwitting Americans Support the Chinese Military Industrial Complex


    Oh…and check out their article on Holosun too. Incredible investigative work on the author’s part:

    Holosun - Chinese or American?
     
    If you guys can be patient a little longer, I will be able to show a prototype of my version of a PVS-14 dovetail adapter.
    Pros:
    - it will be better and more capable than the KVC OSS.
    - it will be made in Germany.
    - I won't take your money until it's actually ready.
    - it might be ready and available before KVC has the OSS and K clips back in stock in significant numbers. :LOL:
     
    If you guys can be patient a little longer, I will be able to show a prototype of my version of a PVS-14 dovetail adapter.
    Pros:
    - it will be better and more capable than the KVC OSS.
    - it will be made in Germany.
    - I won't take your money until it's actually ready.
    - it might be ready and available before KVC has the OSS and K clips back in stock in significant numbers. :LOL:
    I can run the KVS OSS with the PVS14 Right eye and RH25 left eye. Will your adapter allow that too ?
     
    Here's a thought. Most of the items discussed in this thread are copies, counterfeits, stolen IP that the Chinese likely would never have R&Ded themselves. Why would a person put money and effort into inventing the next generation of cool stuff if the CCP can just steal it, make it dirt cheap with slave labor and we're satisfied to save a few bucks?


    Why are we still supporting companies that have made it painfully obvious they only care about government contracts?

    They didn't want us as customers. They actively avoid selling to us.

    If I can spend $850 in ammo and give some kids in China a meal or two rather than wait on an endless backorder, I'm ok with it.

    If companies like KAC were concerned about missing a few sales, they maybe should have sold them to us rather than ignoring us?


    Same reason I've avoided ever buying a Colt. They have refused civilian sales multiple times. They deserved to die as a company when they refused to cater to the customer.
     
    If you guys can be patient a little longer, I will be able to show a prototype of my version of a PVS-14 dovetail adapter.
    Pros:
    - it will be better and more capable than the KVC OSS.
    - it will be made in Germany.
    - I won't take your money until it's actually ready.
    - it might be ready and available before KVC has the OSS and K clips back in stock in significant numbers. :LOL:
    I look forward to having a european option available at a reasonable price!
     
    If you guys can be patient a little longer, I will be able to show a prototype of my version of a PVS-14 dovetail adapter.
    Pros:
    - it will be better and more capable than the KVC OSS.
    - it will be made in Germany.
    - I won't take your money until it's actually ready.
    - it might be ready and available before KVC has the OSS and K clips back in stock in significant numbers. :LOL:
    Well come on with it. I just couldn't bring myself to buy something from sotac's site and aliexpress just looked sketchy af. And the direct from Chyna eBay sellers that only guarantee shipping sometime before I die.

    A more cost effective solution is definitely needed. I'm a poor, what can I say.
     
    Well… the time has come. It was only a couple of years ago when the difference between the “Legit” US-made / manufactured kit was clearly better and buying Chinesium was a crap shoot at best.

    Not so anymore.

    Chynah has upped their game almost overnight. Their thermals, at least in terms of performance, easily rival or, in some cases, exceed that of their American peers at non-trivial cost savings. This extends especially to the new crop of knock-off mounts and bridges, cloning the likes of GBRS, Wilcox, KVC/RQE, and many others.

    I have all of the genuine articles and figured I’d find out if the new breed of Chinesium is really “all that” when directly compared to Stars and Stripes manufacturers.

    Debate amongst yourselves as to whether or not your Red-Blooded Murican Patriotism will allow you to buy Yellow, but the results are in, and a $138 (delivered) Chynah KVC/RQE bridge is, for all practical, non-mil users, every bit as good as Knights’ $1,000 offering (that routinely sells on the used market for $1,500-2,000).

    Fit-and-finish are nearly indistinguishable from one another. I literally can’t tell which is which, aside from the screw hardware (Imperial on KVC, Metric on Chinkolium) and the weight (the C model is 0.5 ounces heavier). Both lock-up in a genuine Wilcox G24 equally as well and various dovetail devices lock into both slots identically.

    Functionally, they are identical.

    The Sotac/Chynah unit comes in a nice, little reusable plastic case with rippled foam.

    The KVC comes in a small, white plain cardboard box wrapped in a clear plastic bag. No foam, nothing.

    Perhaps under hard use in austere environments the KVC would hold up better, but that’s pure conjecture on my part, as I’m grasping for reasons to justify owning a mount that costs 10x as much but *may* deliver only 10% more value.

    I can see 2, maybe 3 times the price to have a “Made in the USA” sticker on the plain white box, but TEN?!

    Sotac is killing it right now. They have knock-offs of everything KVC makes, as well as Wilcox and others. iRay is pumping out serious NV and Thermal tech and updating/improving almost every year, where US manufacturers are lucky to refresh products every 5.

    I’m done paying premium prices for inferior products — or at least not superior. Let the DoD pay $4,000 for their hammers and toilet seats.

    View attachment 8394983
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    View attachment 8394986
    Et tu, Horte?

    Well, there are 3 levels of quality import:
    China
    Chyna
    And Chinesium

    The Europeans seem to be somewhere between China and Chyna.

    The ‘Merica “put together here” seem to be somewhere between Chyna and Chinesium.

    And…..
    Once you go BAEck you don’t go back!

    That’s all I have to add.
     
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    Here's a thought. Most of the items discussed in this thread are copies, counterfeits, stolen IP that the Chinese likely would never have R&Ded themselves. Why would a person put money and effort into inventing the next generation of cool stuff if the CCP can just steal it, make it dirt cheap with slave labor and we're satisfied to save a few bucks?
    Well American CEO's of many companies have the Chinese makeing their stuff for cheap and then reselling it to us with huge markups.

    If you want to place a fair amount of blame, place it in the correct place. Greedy American CEO's exporting and outsourcing (for many years now) the US manufacturing base is probably one our biggest problems besides Politicians. The Chinese are now just cutting a lot of them out of their gravy take.

    How do they say it. "The pigeons are coming home to roost."
     
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    Not fudd at all. I think it could be a legit concern, especially since most of the new devices are BT/WiFi enabled to make phone connectivity and image/video sharing more convenient.

    I haven’t seen or heard of anyone reporting suspicious “dial home” behavior or the like, but my tinfoil hat keeps whispering “but it IS Chynah” in my ear.
    Yes because Chicoms are very interested in where you hunt coyotes and seeing who just peeves on their neighbors so they can improve the peeping Tom functions.
    I imagine Alexa , Siri or whatever has you covered where there are any gaps in your mobile phone taping you.All domestic .
     
    Yes because Chicoms are very interested in where you hunt coyotes and seeing who just peeves on their neighbors so they can improve the peeping Tom functions.
    I imagine Alexa , Siri or whatever has you covered where there are any gaps in your mobile phone taping you.All domestic .

    You are obviousry a Chyneese spy, Mr BR, and you probabry drive a Cataract.
     
    I would say that using words like "clones" or "knock-offs" is bending the truth. Chinese are flat-out stealing patent-protected (for example, for Wilcox G24 see US10004289B2) designs and intellectual property that US (and European) companies developed over the years of market knowledge, R&D, serious engineering, field trials, etc. This applies to mounts. This also applies to thermals on a fundamental level (I hope we'll see some serious legal action soon!). Stolen goods are cheaper. Stolen goods can be much cheaper. But they are still stolen goods. It's an individual decision to buy or not to buy somebody's stolen property.
    Well put and this is exactly what it boils down too. I have plenty of Chyna crap, one thing or another, unfortunately though.
     
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    Lots popping up. iRayUSA has 5-yr warranty and solid perfomance with steady flow of new product innovation. Steiner is getting better. Guide looks promising. Just tons out there.
    any thoughts on Argus BVNDs compared to the real deal? I figure at the rate you acquire nice things you might have played with a set at some point
     
    One is real ($450), one is fake (eBay Sotac, $65 delivered).

    I thought there would be more of a difference. If it weren’t for the fact that the “real” one has been used and has some marks, I legit can’t tell them apart. In fact, the dovetail locks up tighter on the Sotac.

    This is nuts.

    View attachment 8406023
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    Same materials? Would hate to have them look the same but the fake be flimsy aluminum that makes my binos verify gravity still works
     
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