Why Gravity Ballistics?

Enough Said · Feb 20, 2024

Answers are only answers because of questions. Solutions are only solutions because of problems.

As precision long range rifle instructors, our problem was a full line of students each with his or her own rifle, caliber, and numerous parameters and cartridges all flying at different speeds at different weights with different characteristics.

We needed an expedient means of providing the student with a solution for the next yard line’s data based upon his impact at the last yard line. Otherwise, the student spent valuable instruction time staring at any one of a number of ballistic apps instead of concentrating and being in the instruction moment that they paid for. Walking a line of 16 students out to 1000 yards efficiently, predictably, and with waterline hits requires time, so we needed to be much more efficient in terms of time and in terms of conserving the...

Shootnwrench · Feb 20, 2024

One of the originals displayed proudly in the armory. @Enough Said

GBMaryland · Feb 24, 2024

I like the app, that’s extremely helpful.

Dos_Meadowlandos · Mar 6, 2024

Is it possible to get the X factor when 'perfect' 100-yard increments aren't available? If a range doesn't have 100/200/300/400/500/600 and instead has 100/255/345/460 etc.

6.5SH · Mar 7, 2024

Dos_Meadowlandos said:
Is it possible to get the X factor when 'perfect' 100-yard increments aren't available? If a range doesn't have 100/200/300/400/500/600 and instead has 100/255/345/460 etc.

If you slide over to the Range Card it will show the X-factor in 50 yard increments. If that isn't fine enough you can easily figure out what it should be from what is shown.

ETA:
Article on using alternate distances.

Alternate Range Weaponized Math

Weaponized Math developed by Marc Taylor has changed the way we gather data for our rifles. Doping your rifle has never been so easy.

www.snipershide.com

Enough Said · Mar 8, 2024

Dos_Meadowlandos said:
Is it possible to get the X factor when 'perfect' 100-yard increments aren't available? If a range doesn't have 100/200/300/400/500/600 and instead has 100/255/345/460 etc.

.Yes.
For instance, if your 255 Yd Data is .6 mil, then your factor to 345 Yds is 2.0 and your factor from 345 to 460 is 1.78, given the example you offered.

Taylor

Dos_Meadowlandos · Mar 8, 2024

Thank You @6.5SH and @Enough Said - Very helpful.

Lowlight · Mar 11, 2024

dcmdon · Apr 21, 2024

I know the physics doesn't change, but I just want to confirm that this works with .22 LR??

Thanks

Enough Said · Apr 21, 2024

dcmdon said:
I know the physics doesn't change, but I just want to confirm that this works with .22 LR??

Thanks

Yes. The yardages and x factors are different, but it works with .22 LR also.

Davehc130 · Apr 21, 2024

Lowlight said:

wait...you get the data and then enter it in a kestrel.....why not just start with the kestrel and 4DOF?????

Lowlight · Apr 21, 2024

Davehc130 said:
wait...you get the data and then enter it in a kestrel.....why not just start with the kestrel and 4DOF?????

Because you have to true and many mess up the inputs

This trues it faster and easier to use plus we are more accurate to start, truing is a necessary evil with both of those, not so much for me, I actually true easier

Go to a class that uses the kestrel to dope you and one that uses gravity ballistics you immediately see the difference. I have been to both, use it all and this is better and easier.

Davehc130 · Apr 21, 2024

I bought the app...not very useful for PRS....I need exact range data..best I can get with app is 50 yard increments....but I need drop data for 811 yards...now I am guessing....if I have a kestrel I can go to range...sight guns in at 100 yard...go to 500 yards and check dope...if I am high. or low I can adjust MV....shoot at 1000 yards...high or low adjust bullet BC.....I can get my dope in about 4 shots....how is GB better????

Enough Said · Apr 21, 2024

Davehc130 said:
I bought the app...not very useful for PRS....I need exact range data..best I can get with app is 50 yard increments....but I need drop data for 811 yards...now I am guessing....if I have a kestrel I can go to range...sight guns in at 100 yard...go to 500 yards and check dope...if I am high. or low I can adjust MV....shoot at 1000 yards...high or low adjust bullet BC.....I can get my dope in about 4 shots....how is GB better????

In the process you describe above, you have theory everywhere but 100, 500 and 1000. If you start at 100 with Gravity Ballistics, you will have data at even yardlines all the way to 1000 based on hits, not theory and you will not need to manipulate your wrong M/V or BC because Gravity Ballistics doesn't need inputs.

If you know your data, or can see it on a range card and you need a solver to add 11 yards, you are missing a great deal of basic drop understanding and should pause your PRS career until you have that understanding because you are spending too much clock time in a solver and not enough time on the trigger.

Gravity Ballistics, if you have read the numerous descriptions, is a means of gathering data efficiently and expediently, based upon the last hit.
Without theoretic inputs that need changing. (M/V, BC)

FimRire RongLifle · Apr 21, 2024

I like GB. I can fill in the gaps because of field collected dope to know in the example range mentioned based on my previous observations at 25 yard increments so that works for me. The app would be neat as a request for enhancement consideration if it could have a gun mph entry for wind 1 wind 2 on a range card and can we stretch to 1200ish?

Lowlight · Apr 21, 2024

.1 mil = 10 yards, with Gravity Ballistics you can see the gap between so you know .8 between 400 & 500 so you know without having to look at the kestrel

811= .2 not very hard to understand

866 add .8 can do it in my head cuz I know what a mil is, gravity ballistics showed me how to understand MY dope and I don’t need the magic box to tell me. Sure I use the box for some situations but I fed it using GB

This teaches you data and doesn’t give you mystery numbers. Wait until you see the Kraft Quick Wind update, next level you do in your head. It’s gonna teach you wind like the kestrel never could. You have to True the wind in the kestrel the same way you do elevation. Can’t have one change without the others. Everything is tied to elevation, wind, heck, other drifts are 1.25% of elevation so you don’t need SD until 10 Mils, (interestingly it falls on 10) but ask your kestrel where they doubled it so idiots like you can see it.

With the Kraft Quick Wind update (KQW) you’ll know, I need 1.5% and go… how easy, you look at it once, you know, you dope your rifle once, you know, that’s the difference, I know, I don’t need the magic box to tell me.

Lowlight · Apr 21, 2024

But needless to say if you haven’t figured it out, this was just the first version, we are updating and enhancing it.

I just needed to see it in the wild before going back, and I wanted to work the Kraft Quick Wind on the range a few more times and with students before adding it. But we are adding it, the method is that good. It’s GB for Wind.

And its $5 not $30+

FimRire RongLifle · Apr 21, 2024

Kqw is going to be in app soon? Awesome! Having this with wind together will be really nice

Lowlight · Apr 21, 2024

Yes, the App Team has been super responsive, so as I see things, I’m able to adjust and now add the Kraft Quick Wind to the App.

We’ll even get to access the compass but the most important thing it works offline. We are analog solutions nobody has that - is living in a digital world because it’s so easy. The app guys laughs at us because it’s so easy. We can adjust everything and we are. I’m a pretty logical guy, contrary to popular belief we shoot and support comps we just don’t support some of the grifters hiding behind a “series” but hell, Chris shot the Larimer NRL match on Friday, came home, taught a class to 10 guys before the group went to Hat Creek, and is back in WY to RO the match, so we know. They just like their villains. Doesn’t work for PRS as if that’s a dig. It does if you know.

You can go to the match day before shoot as many ranges as the give you, put it in the app cuz it has unlimited tracks and you’d have pre trued dope for that range. The dumb mid ranges they might put in are easily determined as I noted. But you might need to count to 10.

FimRire RongLifle · Apr 21, 2024

It also be cool to get this on the garmin watch, just because i have one of course

Lowlight · Apr 21, 2024

You can see it’s .5 between 600 and 650, you can’t figure out it’s .1 per 10 yards ?

Whoa you sure you passed 3rd grade ?

Keep digging though

Long Range 338 · Apr 21, 2024

Davehc130 said:
I bought the app...not very useful for PRS....I need exact range data..best I can get with app is 50 yard increments....but I need drop data for 811 yards...now I am guessing....if I have a kestrel I can go to range...sight guns in at 100 yard...go to 500 yards and check dope...if I am high. or low I can adjust MV....shoot at 1000 yards...high or low adjust bullet BC.....I can get my dope in about 4 shots....how is GB better????

GB is not a solver, it is for gathering your dope so you can then enter it into your Kestrel. For example I was out shooting my 300 NM last weekend using the Kestrel with CDM for the bullet. I was already zeroed for 100 yards and we moved directly to 757 yards. Boom, 0.5 mils low. Adjust, waterline. Move to 889. Hit low again. Finally I put the Kestrel down and just documented my actual dope as a note in my phone so I can deal with it later instead of wasting my time at the range. All the while I forgot I already has GB on my phone, duh moment.

GB is a great way to generate try dope without wasting your range time fiddling with the Kestrel. It actually augments your other tools you already have. Lowlight is highlighting that it also works well as a stand alone and learning tool to not be utterly dependent on your Kestrel. Just another tool in the toolbox but not utterly dependent on all the inputs you have to manually put into other ballistic solvers.

Lowlight · Apr 21, 2024

Yes it works for a .22 but the zero is wrong so you have to scale it to a 25 yard zero. I think a 50 will work

There is a GB for 22 on here, but I never tried it.

The X-Factor numbers can be changed for a reason, for angles, as well as 22, but I don’t have the numbers. We have numbers for Pala, and Mifflin, but you’d have to search it

Long Range 338 · Apr 21, 2024

Davehc130 said:
if you know you are .5 low at 757, why did you not go into the kestrel and decrease your BC until shows you the exact hold required? assuming you use a chrono so you know your MV...

Because fingering the Kestrel in the field has shown to be an exercise in futility... My experience has shown that typically one of 2 things happens.

1- The CDM is very close and only minor adjustments need to be made or
2- The CDM isn't panning out for some reason and focusing on the Kestrel only leads to wasting more time and ammunition trying to get it trued. Mind you I'm not trying to true to 1k, I'm trying to confirm out past 2k

dcmdon · Apr 21, 2024

Would it be correct to say that this method assists you in interpolating your dial up when you have actual measurements at several points?

A separate question, but with respect to long range 22 long rifle, are there multipliers available in 5 yard increments? Or can they be derived?

Enough Said · Apr 21, 2024

dcmdon said:
Would it be correct to say that this method assists you in interpolating your dial up when you have actual measurements at several points?

A separate question, but with respect to long range 22 long rifle, are there multipliers available in 5 yard increments? Or can they be derived?

Yes. First step is to be comfortable with and be able to recite your home-range data instinctively.
That leads to understanding your drop between data points, which makes odd-range data more intuitive and not solver-necessary.

Yes, easily derived. 20-yard zero, then data every 20 yards to 200, which is the equivalent to 1,000 yards in centerfire.

The reason I have not codified the multipliers for .22 LR is because a zero range is not universally accepted as it is with the 100-yard zero in centerfire. Some use 20. Some 25. Some 50 yard zeros. Changing the zero range affects the multipliers because it affects the data slightly.

Taylor

Enough Said · Apr 21, 2024

The reason I have not codified the multipliers for .22 LR is because a zero range is not universally accepted as it is with the 100-yard zero in centerfire. Some use 20. Some 25. Some 50 yard zeros. Changing the zero range affects the multipliers because it affects the data slightly.

6.5SH · Apr 21, 2024

Enough Said said:
The reason I have not codified the multipliers for .22 LR is because a zero range is not universally accepted as it is with the 100-yard zero in centerfire. Some use 20. Some 25. Some 50 yard zeros. Changing the zero range affects the multipliers because it affects the data slightly.

I know I'm in the minority for using it, but a 35-36 yard zero does the same thing for .22 as 100 does for centerfire. Everything is an up adjustment.

Lowlight · Apr 21, 2024

Why I waved off 22 is the zeros, I heard the 35-36 was the 100 yard number and then everyone was saying use 50 yards.

I would say do it with 35-36 if we were to stand behind a number

Makinchips208 · Apr 21, 2024

6.5SH said:
I know I'm in the minority for using it, but a 35-36 yard zero does the same thing for .22 as 100 does for centerfire. Everything is an up adjustment.

35 yard zero works good for me for 22lr.

dcmdon · Apr 21, 2024

Is there a way to work this system with a 50 yard zero?

I’ve just been using that for so long, it’s instinctive.

Also, it seems to be what you zero at at all the competitions.

Thank you all for your wisdom. Like I have said in other posts, I am a fairly experienced competitive shooter, but know, just enough about this kind of thing to know that I don’t know much.

6.5SH · Apr 21, 2024

dcmdon said:
Is there a way to work this system with a 50 yard zero?

I’ve just been using that for so long, it’s instinctive.

Also, it seems to be what you zero at at all the competitions.

Thank you all for your wisdom. Like I have said in other posts, I am a fairly experienced competitive shooter, but know, just enough about this kind of thing to know that I don’t know much.

Thread(s) on the worksheet method for .22 LR

Question on Weaponized math for 22

I've read thru and understand how to use the Weaponized math charts for centerfire. Makes perfect sense. Gravity is a constant and you should believe what the rifle tells you on that day, and not rely solely on the calculator. In the write up it's mentioned that it can be scaled for a 22 and up...

www.snipershide.com

Enough Said · Apr 22, 2024

dcmdon said:
Is there a way to work this system with a 50 yard zero?

I’ve just been using that for so long, it’s instinctive.

Also, it seems to be what you zero at at all the competitions.

Thank you all for your wisdom. Like I have said in other posts, I am a fairly experienced competitive shooter, but know, just enough about this kind of thing to know that I don’t know much.

50-yard zero. Make it Precise and accurate
70-yard data __?__ x 2.28 = 90-yard data.
90-yard data ___x 1.625 = 110-yard data
110-yard data ___x1.42 = 130-yard data
130-yard data ___x1.29 = 150-yard data
150-yard data ___x1.25 = 170-yard data
170-yard data ___x1.20 = 190-yard data
190-yard data ___x1.18 = 210-yard data

There You go.
Taylor

dcmdon · Apr 25, 2024

Hi all, over the last few days, I've been reading up on this as best I can.

I'm pretty confident that I know how the math works. I've been running numbers with the chart presented in this post.

Alternate Range Weaponized Math

Weaponized Math developed by Marc Taylor has changed the way we gather data for our rifles. Doping your rifle has never been so easy.

www.snipershide.com

However, I still can't find a chart that goes down to 50 yards and then up in 5 or 10 yard increments, as would be used with a .22 LR.

I'm happy to pay Frank and his crew for this. In fact, if anyone can confirm that the app
1) supports a 50 yard zero
2) has multipliers down to 50 yards and in minimum 10 yard increments

I'll happily buy the app.

Thanks.

Enough Said · Apr 25, 2024

The Gravity Ballistics Ap does not/ will not be built around a 50-yard zero because it was developed for center fire rifles. Nor will I break it down to 50 yard / 10-yard increments because the Ap, in its entirety, breaks down the drop in a way that any unknown distances can easily be calculated once all the even 100-yard data has been confirmed.

Thanks for your consideration, and if I can assist you personally with questions about how to reach the numbers you are looking for, ping me in a DM or email.

I make custom - math worksheets for custom ranges.

Taylor

dcmdon · Apr 26, 2024

Thank you.

Lowlight · Apr 26, 2024

Drop between yard lines goes from .6 between 100 yards to about 1.2, 1.4 around 900 to 1000. In most working ranges you have 1 mil give or take a .1th

With that information you no longer need to “know” the odd ranges as predicted by a solver because you can see it. It’s a .1 mil per 10 yards.

Most steel we shoot has extra elevation and limited windage. That means missing via elevation is not gonna happen if at first you’re a .1 or .2 off. So it’s easy to do in your head.

As far as the .22 numbers. I will do it, but it will be a minute

isofahunter · Apr 26, 2024

GB is ridiculous, it is so easy. Long time 4DOF user but GB is the easy button. Will continue to use 4DOF but GB is clean and simple. Only snag I have run into is sending the range card to email has not worked for me. Always like to have a paper dope card in the bag.

@Lowlight is Way Wind going to be integrated at some point?

Makinchips208 · Apr 26, 2024

isofahunter said:
GB is ridiculous, it is so easy. Long time 4DOF user but GB is the easy button. Will continue to use 4DOF but GB is clean and simple. Only snag I have run into is sending the range card to email has not worked for me. Always like to have a paper dope card in the bag.

@Lowlight is Way Wind going to be integrated at some point?

Mine shows up in email as “audentio”
Maybe it’s getting blocked as spam or junk in email?

Lowlight · Apr 26, 2024

The GB App is being updated as we speak,

We are adding in the Kraft Quick Wind, so yes the App is currently being worked on to add in the Wind.

We are working towards this feature too, as I see this App as a training tool and not a predictive solver. So the App is supposed to let the shooter put the wind hold into the app, so a verified hit, and it will spell out the wind for you,

It's moving forward

isofahunter · Apr 26, 2024

Makinchips208 said:
Mine shows up in email as “audentio”
Maybe it’s getting blocked as spam or junk in email?

Mine does not even allow it to send. Thank for post as it seems to be my issue and not the app.

6.5SH · Apr 26, 2024

isofahunter said:
Mine does not even allow it to send. Thank for post as it seems to be my issue and not the app.

Check to see if any permissions are denied in the Android settings app

Lowlight · Apr 28, 2024

I am going out to look at the 22 numbers, we will look at the 36yd zero vs 25yd zero, which I know guys are also at 50, but I will have to see how the data looks first, I plan on mapping it so I will know

Lowlight · Apr 29, 2024

Lowlight · Apr 29, 2024

I have to go tune these numbers and then extend them out to 200, but the wind was just enough to maybe cause a minor variation .1 -.2 off at the most

I think I can flush these out right

Also post your verified numbers if you have them for me to use too - give us and average

LuckyLuke80 · May 28, 2024

The app is legit! I’m relatively new to the long range stuff and I was able to take my 308 out to 700 yards a few days ago. I was pumped! Who knew it could be so easy! Oh, wait! I guess that’s what Frank, Marc, Chris and others have been saying for a minute now. Next on the agenda is find a class close to north central Idaho…Thanks gents!

LuckyLuke80 · May 28, 2024

6.5SH said:
I know I'm in the minority for using it, but a 35-36 yard zero does the same thing for .22 as 100 does for centerfire. Everything is an up adjustment.

Good info. I’m going to change my 22 now. I’ve always zeroed it at 50, but never had any science for it. Just went seat of the pants.

Tolman1042 · Jul 20, 2024

Enough Said said:
In the process you describe above, you have theory everywhere but 100, 500 and 1000. If you start at 100 with Gravity Ballistics, you will have data at even yardlines all the way to 1000 based on hits, not theory and you will not need to manipulate your wrong M/V or BC because Gravity Ballistics doesn't need inputs.

If you know your data, or can see it on a range card and you need a solver to add 11 yards, you are missing a great deal of basic drop understanding and should pause your PRS career until you have that understanding because you are spending too much clock time in a solver and not enough time on the trigger.

Gravity Ballistics, if you have read the numerous descriptions, is a means of gathering data efficiently and expediently, based upon the last hit.
Without theoretic inputs that need changing. (M/V, BC)

I have been reading a bunch of posts on GB and the more things like this that I read the more I believe the people who developed GB don’t actually understand how to use a ballistic solver. And because they can’t use a ballistic solver like AB they have developed the most simplistic and asinine way of figuring out “try data” as they like to say. The original poster stated that he can basically zero at 100m, then take shots at 500 and 1000 and have his ballistic silver trued. Which means that his ballistic solver will have accurate holds for any distance out to subsonic and you claim that he wastes too much time in his solver? You waste way more time firing at every even hundred yard line and doing your GB math which will inevitably almost always be wrong. Maybe it won’t be wrong enough to put you off target (depending on the size of the target) but it will still be wrong. There are so many more things than gravity that matter and the way you are selling this does a huge disservice to those that want to be able to go out and shoot accurately at varying distances. Here’s a simple example: if someone use your GB for a 6.5CM on their “home range” and it is 60 degrees outside their data at 1000 will be 10.7 mils. So they went thru your ridiculous table and wasted a minimum of 20 rounds (if everything works out perfectly and they get 2 solid hits on the waterline using your math) getting all of their “non-theoretical” real-life hits at every even hundred yard line. So the shooter now has everything written down and “knows” that 10.7 mils gets hits at 1000m. Now he comes back to his “home range” and goes to shoot at the same 1000m target and puts 10.7 mils on it and misses high because the temperature is now 90 degrees and he only needs to hold 10.3 mils to hit the 12” circle at 1000m. And high misses are always harder to see than low misses, so he might just think it’s wind to begin with because you claim this GB works. And then he wastes a bunch more shots before he figures it out. Whereas if the shooter just learned how to use a ballistic solver and use it correctly, he wouldn’t have this issue. I have been shooting for 2 decades, and however this might have been useful 2 decades ago, it is utterly ridiculous to pretend that this is something that plays any role in shooting today. I am a huge fan of Applied Ballistics, but I would be willing to say that any notable ballistics solver is better than this. Just pick one and learn how to use it (AB, GeoBallistics, strelok, 4dof) and you will never go wrong. Ballistic solvers aren’t theory, this stupid GB is “theory”. Ballistics solvers use advanced equations of projectiles in motion to develop a ballistic trajectory and they do it extremely well. There’s a reason special operations use Applied Ballistics; it’s because it works to give you a solution that will hit your target. Ballistic solvers take into account temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, the zero distance, muzzle velocity, bullet weight, diameter and form factor (shape), ballistic coefficient, gyroscopic stability, angle of attack of the projectile, pitch, yaw, aerodynamic jump, wind, inclination angle, air density, etc. Ballistic solvers work, you put in good information and they spit out good holds, period. Don’t let people who developed a poor idea to help them boost their teaching career and make money off of the poor idea tell you that ballistic solvers are some useless “theory” and act as if their simple math is going to save you time and ammunition. Because it won’t, ballistic solvers that are used properly will save you much more time and ammunition over the ridiculous Gravity Ballistics 3rd grade math problem. Ballistic solvers will also help you miss less, allow you to compare different calibers, bullets, muzzle velocities, etc without ever even having to fire a shot. You can also use them to see how different variables will affect your holds. Ballistic solvers have so many uses that you could literally write a book talking about all of the advantages of them.

Shootnwrench · Jul 20, 2024

Tolman1042 said:
…... Ballistic solvers have so many uses that you could literally write a book talking about all of the advantages of them.

A book would have paragraphs……..

GBMaryland · Jul 20, 2024

No kidding… I’m not reading that because it’s not formatted.

GB is a great way to get basic dope on a rifle. I’ve used it here and there for several years without any problems whatsoever. It does have to be modified when you’re shooting up a mountain as opposed to a level shooting area.

But it serves its purpose and it does it well….

Having trouble using the site?

Why Gravity Ballistics?

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