Rifle Scopes Seven Scopes with Issues or Something Else

spooledup

spooledup

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Minuteman
Jul 28, 2007
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286
Marion NC
#1
Seems I have a scope issue times seven scopes. It also seems like this is a legit issue. So, with that said I have a question for you dudes. Has anyone else seen an impact shift when dropping the rifle on a bag and taking a shot?

What started all this was trying to get my build and break times down. I’d shoot five shots from five different positions for time trying to keep them all in the #1 diamond on the Kraft Target. When I went from high kneeling to standing I dropped the rifle on the bag from about 12” in a hatchet type movement pushing to make up time. Hand on grip, forearm approximately 12” above the bag and let the rifle drop angling down to the bag. I noticed the shot went low when I called it center diamond. I shot again to confirm and it was center. I thought that was weird so I repeated the process and first shot was low, second shot was center. My mind went into overtime knowing there was an issue, but what was causing it? My first thought was chassis. Swapped around with three chassis to no resolve. Ok, it’s a barrel issue, again three barrels with no resolve. So I texted a dude that likes to test stuff. He said nope never tested that or heard of it but I’ll look into it. Only one thing left to do swap scopes and see what’s up. The results are below and they speak for themselves. What say you?

Here is the process I used to confirm the results checking different scopes.

- All shots were from standing position.
- Held grip, the rifle is 12” above bag, release forearm and rifle falls onto bag.
- Fire first shot.
- Pan over to next target and fire second shot.
- Pick up rifle and repeat for a total of 5 shots per target/10 rounds total.

Here is the list of scopes tested:
- Gen 2 Razor 4.5-27
- Zero Compromise 4-20
- Nightforce NXS 5.5-22
- Gen 3 Razor 6-36
- Leupold MK4 Fixed 16x
- Gen 2 Razor 3-18
- Viper PST 5-25

Chassis that were tried early on to eliminate that thought:
- AIATX
- XLR Envy Pro
- Early XLR Envy

Barrels Tested to remove that thought:
- 26” Proof 6mm
- 26” Bartlien
- 26” Proof 6.5mm

The last thing I tried was dropping the rifle onto the bag dialing the scope up and down to remove any lash then return to zero and fire. It fixed nothing.

Will work for ammo….

Update to add Seekins SP10 results 5-26-24

@Lowlight feel free to move if this needs to be elsewhere.
 

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#2
Glad it’s being reported

When diagnosing the PRS crowd we started hearing about this and I know Chris was asking guys to check it.

Seems that Bag Chop with the current crop of rifles is bouncing the scopes. I wonder too if the rifle weight has a bearing ? Or is just the momentum?

How the PRS crowd wasn’t reporting this I don’t know unless they did and I just missed it ? Seems that crowd would have seen this years ago ?

We were discussing this earlier this week though
 
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#3
What is crazy is it seams you can’t buy your way out of it. I only tested what I had available but it covers all tiers and even some OG scopes.

I’m going to reach out to Vortex to see if they can fix my issue. A wise dude once said if we find the problem it is on them to fix the problem. Hopefully they will take it seriously but at the end of the day I’m just some nobody shooting in his backyard.
 
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#7
Lowlight said:
I believe Chris reached out to 5 or 6 of you to test this with everyone having the same results, so there should be plenty of data to compare

Fact is, it’s out there now, so you have to address it.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I brought it up to him when I discovered it for myself. He is the dude I was referring to in the original post. He had never tested it or knew that it this serious but said he would look into it. It’s my understanding that he would have his guys try it out as well. He can speak more about his findings.
 
#8
"Held grip, the rifle is 12” above bag, release forearm and rifle falls onto bag."

Just a theory here but that, and the barrel lengths seem to be what the problem is. 26" is a long barrel, introducing a strong downward force has to exit the equation somewhere and I would argue it translates into barrel flex or barrel whip. While probably not visable to the naked eye I would guess that you are firing the bullet while the flex is still trying to resolve itself and even minimal flex or unresolved barrel movement at the muzzle will be exacerbated at bullet impact distances.

With all due respect it seems as though you are introducing a problem then concluding there is a problem, cause and effect. How is the accuracy of those rifles and scopes without dropping them down onto to a stationary surface?
 
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#9
Just a thought, have you put a bedding pad in the chassis for the first inch, maybe inch and a half? You don't mention barrel contour, but I know some of you guys run truck axles. That's a lot of weight, with a lot of leverage to be bouncing around. I could see stretching fasteners etc.
 
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#10
TangoSierra916 said:
In your testing, after you knew there was an issue, have you tried dropping the rifle on the bag, dialing up the needed correction to hit center based on previous attempts, then firing? Curious if you'd then be able to hit center on that first shot then 2nd shot would be high if you didn't touch the turret.
Click to expand...
Yea that’s what that last little paragraph is about. Dialing up or down to take the lash out…. It didn’t help.
 
#12
fdkay said:
Just a thought, have you put a bedding pad in the chassis for the first inch, maybe inch and a half? You don't mention barrel contour, but I know some of you guys run truck axles. That's a lot of weight, with a lot of leverage to be bouncing around. I could see stretching fasteners etc.
Click to expand...
I tried three different barrels. M40, Comp and one lighter profile. Nothing was eliminated.
 
#13
spooledup said:
Yeah, I brought it up to him when I discovered it for myself. He is the dude I was referring to in the original post. He had never tested it or knew that it this serious but said he would look into it. It’s my understanding that he would have his guys try it out as well. He can speak more about his findings.
Click to expand...
Well when you mentioned it as barrel memory I wanted to figure out what it was because that didn’t make sense. After mentioning that it was a scope issue we began gathering results and compiling it so that it didn’t turn into a speculation fest.. so for data and more specific information the data and shifts have to be sufficient and thorough so that there are less emotions and more facts.
I have most scopes tested but waiting for independent results from a few others.
I’ll make an article once I feel there’s more objective data.
 
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#15
spooledup said:
They are all built different in a way. Tolerance stacking etc. let me know how it goes for your testing.
Click to expand...
I shoot in my backyard most days and also utilize the Kraft drill but I guess I more place the rifle in the bag as opposed to dropping it there. Have 3 different match rifles with different chassis/stocks, barrels and either Leupold Mark 5 or ATACR's.
 
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#17
Stone111 said:
"Held grip, the rifle is 12” above bag, release forearm and rifle falls onto bag."

Just a theory here but that, and the barrel lengths seem to be what the problem is. 26" is a long barrel, introducing a strong downward force has to exit the equation somewhere and I would argue it translates into barrel flex or barrel whip. While probably not visable to the naked eye I would guess that you are firing the bullet while the flex is still trying to resolve itself and even minimal flex or unresolved barrel movement at the muzzle will be exacerbated at bullet impact distances.
Click to expand...
I was initially with you on that thought. Test it with a shorty and see if the results are different.
 
#20
ballisticdaddy said:
I shoot in my backyard most days and also utilize the Kraft drill but I guess I more place the rifle in the bag as opposed to dropping it there. Have 3 different match rifles with different chassis/stocks, barrels and either Leupold Mark 5 or ATACR's.
Click to expand...
Heck yea man! A lot can be learned in the backyard. Would you care to test it out with those three setups? Legit drop, fire shot, pan to next diamond and fire shot. Pickup and repeat.

I think we can all agree that dropping the rifle onto the bag is not a normal practice but it can happen at times. I normally place the rifle there as well.
 
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#22
Lowlight said:
I would say, take a quick video to demonstrate the height you are coming down from then others can copy it and see, we can collect a ton of data in a short amount of time
Click to expand...
Can you PM your number and I’ll send you a dryfire video I did for demonstration purposes? It’s short and sweet. The noise in the video is the Atlas bipod rattling.
 
#24
Sorry but what kind of fucking idiot is slamming his gun and dropping it by 12" or more? I abuse the shit out of my gun, carry it by the scope both on and off the clock,ect.... and never see poi shift. In fact, as long as I don't take the mount off my zero does not changes. I haven't had to adjust zero in the last 3 matches I shot. When I do, its within a .1 of RTZ.

I mean what do people think if you take a 25lb gun and slam it down into something hard? How is this any different than a hunter throwing his rifle down a hillside or dropping your gun out of a treestand? I watch alot of people shooting PRS and can't recall people slamming their guns down like described. Either controlling the gun by the scope, forearm or with the grip you should never be slamming your rifle and dropping it from that distance.

Its simple physics, having that much mass moving that fast with a sudden stop is going to fuck shit up. Why is this a surprise to anyone? What people should be asking is why are fuck tards doing it in the first place.

Its probably not being reported because people with an IQ over 70 aren't doing it, so they aren't seeing issues.
 
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#25
@spooledup Thanks, so the test conclusion matches the introduced variable of downward force resolving itself with barrel flex and the bullet being fired while the barrel is still moving... Cause and effect. I think the majority of shots were low since you were trying hard to duplicate the test and break the shot at the same intervals after the rifle impacted the bag.
 
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#26
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Sorry but what kind of fucking idiot is slamming his gun and dropping it by 12" or more? I abuse the shit out of my gun, carry it by the scope both on and off the clock,ect.... and never see poi shift. In fact, as long as I don't take the mount off my zero does not changes. I haven't had to adjust zero in the last 3 matches I shot. When I do, its within a .1 of RTZ.

I mean what do people think if you take a 25lb gun and slam it down into something hard? How is this any different than a hunter throwing his rifle down a hillside or dropping your gun out of a treestand? I watch alot of people shooting PRS and can't recall people slamming their guns down like described. Either controlling the gun by the scope, forearm or with the grip you should never be slamming your rifle and dropping it from that distance.

Its simple physics, having that much mass moving that fast with a sudden stop is going to fuck shit up. Why is this a surprise to anyone? What people should be asking is why are fuck tards doing it in the first place.

Its probably not being reported because people with an IQ over 70 aren't doing it, so they aren't seeing issues.
Click to expand...
I love you more…. No you hang up…

God Bless
 
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#27
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Sorry but what kind of fucking idiot is slamming his gun and dropping it by 12" or more? I abuse the shit out of my gun, carry it by the scope both on and off the clock,ect.... and never see poi shift. In fact, as long as I don't take the mount off my zero does not changes. I haven't had to adjust zero in the last 3 matches I shot. When I do, its within a .1 of RTZ.

I mean what do people think if you take a 25lb gun and slam it down into something hard? How is this any different than a hunter throwing his rifle down a hillside or dropping your gun out of a treestand? I watch alot of people shooting PRS and can't recall people slamming their guns down like described. Either controlling the gun by the scope, forearm or with the grip you should never be slamming your rifle and dropping it from that distance.

Its simple physics, having that much mass moving that fast with a sudden stop is going to fuck shit up. Why is this a surprise to anyone? What people should be asking is why are fuck tards doing it in the first place.

Its probably not being reported because people with an IQ over 70 aren't doing it, so they aren't seeing issues.
Click to expand...
I did give you a bit of break with the endless reports I get about your account. And I’m beginning to think they are right. Most of the time I say put them on ignore - but really you’re short for this world.

I think people were to stupid to check on paper vs steel and steel lies, paper doesn’t
 
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#29
spooledup said:
Heck yea man! A lot can be learned in the backyard. Would you care to test it out with those three setups? Legit drop, fire shot, pan to next diamond and fire shot. Pickup and repeat.

I think we can all agree that dropping the rifle onto the bag is not a normal practice but it can happen at times. I normally place the rifle there as well.
Click to expand...
I test frequently and enjoy the process but do not see any advantage to dropping a rifle from a foot above the bag just to see what happens. Shot quite a few matches and can't ever recall having to do something like that to be able to engage a target. If you are certain that every one of the scopes you own is malfunctioning then I would be curious to see what Vortex, ZCO, Leupold and NF would say after inspection....keep us posted!
 
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#30
ballisticdaddy said:
I test frequently and enjoy the process but do not see any advantage to dropping a rifle from a foot above the bag just to see what happens. Shot quite a few matches and can't ever recall having to do something like that to be able to engage a target. If you are certain that every one of the scopes you own is malfunctioning then I would be curious to see what Vortex, ZCO, Leupold and NF would say after inspection....keep us posted!
Click to expand...
I’ve done similar tests a few years ago. Along with a rubber mallet. The issue at first I assumed was optic, then optic mount. Ended up being unbedded chassis. Since then all my chassis have been bedded.
 
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#31
Lowlight said:
I did give you a bit of break with the endless reports I get about your account. And I’m beginning to think they are right. Most of the time I say put them on ignore - but really you’re short for this world.

I think people where to stupid to check on paper vs steel and steel lies, paper doesn’t
Click to expand...
I think alot of the better shooters are shooting paper. Especially 1" dot drills and things like the SH and MDS sniper drill. They are great practice and you are right, paper doesn't lie. They would be reporting it. I know chad and francis zero after every day

The question is, if there was a shift why wouldn't it persist? If you zero at beginning of match and at end of each day, and see no change, or across days, then how is it explained? A tenth is within the noise elevation wise with most shots.

The only thing that makes sense IMO, is people abusing their equipment. I know exactly what they mean by letting it fall, say from position 3 to 4 on the PRS barricade. Its about 20" by spec. I can't recall anyone letting the weight of the gun just drop on a hard sand bag rested on a steel rail. You can do a controlled decent with the grip but most people, actually grab their bag and the gun with the support hand, especially if they are running a plate or attached bag.

IMO its no different than any of the above mentioned examples where we know you will get POI shift from banging your gun/optic around.
 
#33
DeathBeforeDismount said:
I think alot of the better shooters are shooting paper. Especially 1" dot drills and things like the SH and MDS sniper drill. They are great practice and you are right, paper doesn't lie. They would be reporting it. I know chad and francis zero after every day

The question is, if there was a shift why wouldn't it persist? If you zero at beginning of match and at end of each day, and see no change, or across days, then how is it explained? A tenth is within the noise elevation wise with most shots.

The only thing that makes sense IMO, is people abusing their equipment. I know exactly what they mean by letting it fall, say from position 3 to 4 on the PRS barricade. Its about 20" by spec. I can't recall anyone letting the weight of the gun just drop on a hard sand bag rested on a steel rail. You can do a controlled decent with the grip but most people, actually grab their bag and the gun with the support hand, especially if they are running a plate or attached bag.

IMO its no different than any of the above mentioned examples where we know you will get POI shift from banging your gun/optic around.
Click to expand...
I’m still removing you but whatever you say your opinion is worthless here
 
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#34
I know several stocks were tried but could this come down to a chassis/stock issue without bedding vs a scope? I could definitely see any system that’s bolted together (chassis/action, action/rail, rail/rings, rings/scope) moving and settling back in after a shot?

What if you did the drop test then gave the stock a bump against the floor or bench like when torquing a chassis down.

Edit: Removing the optic, dropping the rifle, reinstalling the optic would test this I suppose
 
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#37
Another way to test this is to have someone slam or not slam the gun down while your back is turned. They then hand you the rifle and have you shoot it in prone.

There’s too much variable shooting standing and shooter bias if you’re slamming it down and mentally thinking the shot will be low.
 
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#39
With anything errors are cumulative and it’s important that if someone sees a variation we run it down. We have a variety of potential so what does it hurt to run this down ?

Nobody is blaming an optic, it’s question posed to group. One I don’t recalled being addressed ?

It could be the direction the up and down vs a left to right the springs in a scope are not aligned to the side but up and down so maybe the momentum bounces it weird.

Pad bedding on the chassis, ok, but yes a shift and reset not a bounce ? It would have to slip and reset on recoil but how is the slip staying in place ?

So I don’t see an issue exploring this further
 
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#40
Just an uninformed opinion, aren't the scope adjustmensts on springs and gears still. would elasticity of the spring being compressed stick a little due to friction from the down force and then return to normal with the jolt from firing?

"It is not the cog that winds the watch"
 
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#41
sdrawkcab said:
Just an uninformed opinion, aren't the scope adjustmensts on springs and gears still. would elasticity of the spring being compressed stick a little due to friction from the down force and then return to normal with the jolt from firing?

"It is not the cog that winds the watch"
Click to expand...
lol kept getting security error to post this then when i do
 
#44
AllenOne1 said:
Is this a bag issue? When you drop the rifle its compressing the bag and then when you move the gun it's on a non compacted area so it gets it's normal bounce back.

You have tested so many scope, barrel, chassis combination that these would normally be ruled out as the issue. Have you tried different bags?
Click to expand...
Bag is not moved between shot one and two. Yes, I did use a lite fill GC as well.
 
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#49
This is very interesting. I do not have any heavy competition rifles, but I can experiment a little with the lighter Fix boltguns I have. Since they do not have a separate action-to-chassis interface, it will take one variable out. I think I also have Stag Pursuit boltgn here that is a more conventional rifle. I will try it with that as well. In both cases, it will be a couple of weeks at least since I'll be getting on the plane tomorrow as well.

It could be the riflescope, in theory, if the erector system is bouncing on the spring and not returning to the same spot. Then, the recoil of the first shot returns it to where it was originally. However, adjusting the turrets before shooting would have fixed that.

I'll give it some more thought.

ILya
 
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#50
sdrawkcab said:
Just an uninformed opinion, aren't the scope adjustmensts on springs and gears still. would elasticity of the spring being compressed stick a little due to friction from the down force and then return to normal with the jolt from firing?

"It is not the cog that winds the watch"
Click to expand...
This was my thought. I’m far from and expert on scope internals (or much else for that matter) but from my reading my understanding is that the internal tube has a spring that opposes a screw like function of the turret.

So, perhaps as you speculate, a hard downward force causes the spring to compress but not exactly return to its prior position. Then the recoil of the next shot shakes things up a bit and now it’s back to a precise zero.

In some diagrams I have seen of scope internals, a single spring is used to oppose both the elevation and windage turrets but I suspect this is on lower cost scopes and that the ones you have referenced have a separate spring for each turret.

I also understand that tkes very, very little angular shift to move .1 mil or so.

And, while I’m busy guessing (lol), I suspect that there is a practical limit to how strong a spring can be put in there and still allow ease of turret movement.

And yes, this is all pure speculation (uh…same as pulling it out of my ass haha)

Edit: dang…an actual expert responded with similar speculation. Just call me Mr Redundant who needs to read the whole thread before tossing his hat into the ring. Sigh…haha
 
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