I'll Never forget you calling out that man-bun at Mifflin a couple years back! :-]]And you are a millennial with a man bun, its ok
Rifle Scopes Seven Scopes with Issues or Something Else
- Thread starter spooledup
- Start date
Me? Oh, couldn’t be me! David and I are friends and I’d never do that! lol
Am I reading this correctly, the first shot after the "drop" is low but the second is POA? and this without adjusting the scope?
For nothing but zero retention, what's your scope rings or mount of choice? I don't think I need many features, I just want something that my scope will never shift in. Is there a top dog on just sheer clamping force or friction on the scope/rail?
Since the zero moves and then comes back to original, it would seem that the most likely source would be the scope adjustment mechanism. Most modern scopes use very similar designs as far a s internal adjustments. Col. Cooper may have been correct that a fixed scope and an adjustable mount could be more robust if only because there is more room outside the scope tube than inside even with 34mm and 35mm tubes. I cannot see how the chassis or mounts could move and then return to the former position.
An impact/jostle puts a slight bind/tweak on multiple parts with space to shift that is resettled after the firing explosion/recoil
When testing chassis bedding/POI shifts pre-bedding, I could move my POI around in various directions depending on which way i struck the barrels
Some directions would shift and tend to stay until I hit them back the opposite direction, some would shift and walk back to center over a few shots
I was impacting way harder than a small drop from 12” onto a bag so I could see how a consistent/lesser impact could move things just enough for recoil to reseat it each time
After bedding all the shifts went away…same scopes were used before and after
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Simple problem, simple solution.
C'mon guys think.....it's easy.
When you drop the rifle it allows *debris* (carbon, copper chunks, unburnt powder, etc.) currently in the bore from previously fired shots to be dislodged creating a slower shot hence the low hit.
The next shot has the now cleared bore so it will be right back on target.
Might as well just drop a handful of dirt in the bore to test this out.....it'll do the exact same thing.
Nothing is failing and everything is acting normal.
I'm puzzled y'all couldn't see this.
Oh, the fix ?
Don't EVER intentionally drop your rifle dumbass.
Isn't that jarhead 101 ?
It's your lover, treat it as such.
Oh, the test to confirm ?
Chrono the shots after dropping the rifle.
It's a no brainer, right ?
C'mon guys think.....it's easy.
When you drop the rifle it allows *debris* (carbon, copper chunks, unburnt powder, etc.) currently in the bore from previously fired shots to be dislodged creating a slower shot hence the low hit.
The next shot has the now cleared bore so it will be right back on target.
Might as well just drop a handful of dirt in the bore to test this out.....it'll do the exact same thing.
Nothing is failing and everything is acting normal.
I'm puzzled y'all couldn't see this.
Oh, the fix ?
Don't EVER intentionally drop your rifle dumbass.
Isn't that jarhead 101 ?
It's your lover, treat it as such.
Oh, the test to confirm ?
Chrono the shots after dropping the rifle.
It's a no brainer, right ?
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I don’t know whether the following is sarcasm or science, but I gotta ask:
Does this happen with iron sights?
Does this happen with a scoped rifle that doesn’t have a stock separate from an action — like an AR platform?
-Stan
Does this happen with iron sights?
Does this happen with a scoped rifle that doesn’t have a stock separate from an action — like an AR platform?
-Stan
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How tight are your barrels torqued? Could this trend of 35-50fftlbs instead of 100 be causeing a less rigid joint at the tennon?
Barrels are torqued at 85ftlb and action screws at 65inlb.
I’ll try a gasser whenever I get time. You know for science and the internetssss.
I’ll try a gasser whenever I get time. You know for science and the internetssss.
Something like this would be perfect to test exactly the way you suggested.
Someone please test this with a bedded chassis. There’s a reason many of us bed them. I’ve found that most chassis experience small zero shifts throughout a prs match and moving in and out of the truck between days with shit getting piled on and what not. Since bedding my chassis it’s almost 100% eliminated my need to adjust my zero over the course of 3 days at a match. It’s been a significant improvement.
I’d be happy to but none of mine are bedded. No one I have access to in the homie group has one bedded either. I’d really like to test one to find out the outcome with a bedded chassis.
The only bedded rifles I have are both using a MK13 L shape recoil lugs. Those are without barrel pad due to the lug design.
The only bedded rifles I have are both using a MK13 L shape recoil lugs. Those are without barrel pad due to the lug design.
spooledup,
How much bias to you have in your scope base and your mount? Could you tell me what each has individually?
How much bias to you have in your scope base and your mount? Could you tell me what each has individually?
So at least seven different sets of rings were used and 3 or 4 different rifles. Some of them being Bighorn which utilize dowel pins in the rail.
I don’t feel as if the issue is within the rail or rings.
Putting bias in the base and mount pulls the erector tube away from the erector spring when zeroing the scope. These are important details.
The bullet was asleep, you woke it up by slapping it.
So now it’s flipping you the bird all the way to the target. Its tiny bullet middle finger is slowing it down and it’s hitting low.
Next bullet is wide awake and raring to go. Center punch.
That’ll be $5.
So now it’s flipping you the bird all the way to the target. Its tiny bullet middle finger is slowing it down and it’s hitting low.
Next bullet is wide awake and raring to go. Center punch.
That’ll be $5.
I drop my gun into my positional bag to create a “channel” in the bag and have never had an elevation problem. I don’t slam it by any means, more of a controlled fall, but letting your gun drop into the bag is something the JTAC Okie boys teach and they seem to do just fine. I run a Kahles 525 DLR in Hawkins rings for my Dasher and the same for my 308 trainer, but with a Gen3 Razor.
When I’m bored shooting service rifle I will shoot at my shotmarker at 600 from barricades, tires and so on and haven’t had this issue. So, maybe I’m not using enough force to cause this? I’ll try and cause this poi shift this Sunday when I’m practicing. It was mentioned previously, but the thing that bothers me the most is folks carrying their 25lb rifle by their 3k+ scopes. I think that is just asking for a failure to occur.
When I’m bored shooting service rifle I will shoot at my shotmarker at 600 from barricades, tires and so on and haven’t had this issue. So, maybe I’m not using enough force to cause this? I’ll try and cause this poi shift this Sunday when I’m practicing. It was mentioned previously, but the thing that bothers me the most is folks carrying their 25lb rifle by their 3k+ scopes. I think that is just asking for a failure to occur.
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Before I posted what I did earlier in the thread I knew w/o a doubt no one would believe me.
It's par for the course on this site.
One of the first thing I said was to "think".
I guess that must be old fashioned these days huh ?
Once you've fired 15-20 rounds look thru the bore, you'll see small bits of unburnt powder and random debris.....you all should know this w/o my having had to type it out.
If you slap the barrel hard enough all that shit goes to one side of the bore, same thing happens when you drop the rifle.
It has an effect, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, denial doesn't make it go away.
We have a guy that has swapped barrels, swapped scopes and mounts, swapped chassis or stocks, yet the same problem is repeatable.
Huh, isn't that strange ?
He said the problem is slightly less with the old Loopy Mk4 fixed power......strangely enough I'll wager it's the lightest scope of them all by quite a bit.
Less inertia in the drop.....or is my mathing all fuxored ?
I'll wait for someone to get frustrated enough to actually chrono the shot after the drop.....and laugh my ass off.
It's par for the course on this site.
One of the first thing I said was to "think".
I guess that must be old fashioned these days huh ?
Once you've fired 15-20 rounds look thru the bore, you'll see small bits of unburnt powder and random debris.....you all should know this w/o my having had to type it out.
If you slap the barrel hard enough all that shit goes to one side of the bore, same thing happens when you drop the rifle.
It has an effect, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, denial doesn't make it go away.
We have a guy that has swapped barrels, swapped scopes and mounts, swapped chassis or stocks, yet the same problem is repeatable.
Huh, isn't that strange ?
He said the problem is slightly less with the old Loopy Mk4 fixed power......strangely enough I'll wager it's the lightest scope of them all by quite a bit.
Less inertia in the drop.....or is my mathing all fuxored ?
I'll wait for someone to get frustrated enough to actually chrono the shot after the drop.....and laugh my ass off.
Why doesn't that effect show up in a bedded chassis like @morganlamprecht tested? Why did it only happen in non-bedded chassis for him?
Correct. Grease along the top of the rail and on the clamping surfaces of the pic clamp often helps. If you pay attention (and it sounds like you definitely do), it does not hurt either. Some clamp designs are more susceptible to this than others.
ILya
This has been an very interesting read and got me to thinking.
Awhile back I was in the garage and had one of my rifles in a tripod, I am 6'2" and to be at shoulder height the rifle is pretty high off of the floor.
My wife let my dogs out in the garage because they were annoying her whining at the door to get to me.
They started showing off trying to get my attention wrestling around with each other and knocked the tripod and rifle over.
Rifle bounced from the barrel tip first and then full weight down on the scope, it hit hard enough to to dent the scope shade and bent the elevation turret.
I figured for sure it was totally fucked but what the hell took it to the range to shoot it.
It was a little low and to the right but still grouped just fine so I was impressed but with the bent elevation turret I couldn't dial it back to were it was.
I thought to myself damn scopes have come a long ways durability wise and then I started reading this thread and have second guessed that.
Awhile back I was in the garage and had one of my rifles in a tripod, I am 6'2" and to be at shoulder height the rifle is pretty high off of the floor.
My wife let my dogs out in the garage because they were annoying her whining at the door to get to me.
They started showing off trying to get my attention wrestling around with each other and knocked the tripod and rifle over.
Rifle bounced from the barrel tip first and then full weight down on the scope, it hit hard enough to to dent the scope shade and bent the elevation turret.
I figured for sure it was totally fucked but what the hell took it to the range to shoot it.
It was a little low and to the right but still grouped just fine so I was impressed but with the bent elevation turret I couldn't dial it back to were it was.
I thought to myself damn scopes have come a long ways durability wise and then I started reading this thread and have second guessed that.
Honestly, most good quality mounts when properly mounted work just fine: Area 419, Badger, Seekins, etc.
ILya
i had a rifle take a similar fall
said scope on that rifle came with the bungee style scope caps/covers...
pre fall, the scope covers fit between the objective and rail...post fall, it wouldnt fit
everything still felt tight, so i shot it anyways...zero had shifted like .5mil elevation and 1.5mil windage or something similar
the scope cover not fitting tipped me off something moved so i loosened the ring clamps to the rail and took the scope off, then reinstalled...the scope cap fit between the rail and objective again, and my zero moved back onto a 3/4" dot
at the time i didnt take it back apart to look for damage to the rail/ring clamps, but it held zero fine for the rest of the time i owned that rifle and it didnt take any other hard falls
The scope I mentioned is back in the factory box, I just need to send it back for repair.
They are pretty darn tough scopes, atleast in my mind.
I have seen two scopes in the past that held up fine on sporter 30-06 rifles and then moved to a 300wm have their pants pulled in part of a range session.
Anyone pull any pre/post measurements? If the barrel at the forend moved.....the numbers will tell you.
Nah they are part of the family, ask me how I can tell ?
Family makes you go crazy, drink to much and do irrational things.
Except he's shooting Kraft drills at 100yds. There's no amount of chrono speed that will affect elevation at 100yds. Well, there is.....but it would be a massive difference.
This has been tested to death with purposely slowing down rounds.
Snipershide 2023: "Rokslide drop/impact tests are stupid. Simple solution, don't drop your rifle. Also, these tests aren't lab controlled so the anecdotal data has no value."
Snipershide 2024: "I dropped my rifle and my zero shifted. Maybe we can collect data to see what's happening."
For what it's worth, I don't think it's the scopes, there is so much scrutiny on shock testing scopes by manufacturers these fays. I'd bet it's chassis bedding or barrel deflection during impact.
Snipershide 2024: "I dropped my rifle and my zero shifted. Maybe we can collect data to see what's happening."
For what it's worth, I don't think it's the scopes, there is so much scrutiny on shock testing scopes by manufacturers these fays. I'd bet it's chassis bedding or barrel deflection during impact.
SnipersHide 2023: Rokslide drop tests are arbitrary, uncontrolled, not repeatable, and focused on a single personality. Let’s separate from personalities, refine the process, & standardize to isolate the variables & find the issue.
SnipersHide 2024 (this thread): it’s probably chassis/stock movement. Let’s move towards isolating the variables to find the issue.
SnipersHide 2024 (this thread): it’s probably chassis/stock movement. Let’s move towards isolating the variables to find the issue.
I can only speak from my sample size of one that I actually seen a small shift in zero that I know was from scope damage.
The action in the chassis slipping I feel very confident was not the issue.
Chassis is a XLR Carbon with action screws torqued to 65 in lbs, scope after impact had the elevation adjustment stem bent enough that the turret was visibly tilting to one side.
The zero shift was minimal and if I had no other choice could have finished a hunt with it, attempted to adjust the shift back to zero but the stem was bent enough to prevent that due to binding.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that scopes can’t or don’t lose zero.
Agreed was mainly commenting on the trend of comments regarding the action shifting in bedding or the chassis.
Properly bedded and torqued action screws or a good chassis inlet design negates that concern, that was my point.
Sorry could have been more clear on that one.
I didn't even consider unbedded chassis might shift but another thread got me interested and I think it's a lot more common than people believe. Phil Cashin has said a few times that unbedded chassis are way more susceptible to POI shift from impacts and having wandering zeros. I don't see why a chassis manufacturer would be incentivized to say that if it weren't true.
That was why I said a "Good" chassis inlet design.
Not pointing fingers at any but I can attest to the inlet on my XLR carbon chassis as my rifle took a pretty hard hit and the only thing that shifted was my zero on a damaged scope.
I still haven't touched my action screws since before the rifle was knocked out of a tripod onto a concrete floor, just pulled the damaged scope put another one on and have been shooting it every since then.
Manufacturers do a pretty damn good job considering all the variations of actions and new models coming out constantly but I'm sure there are some small amount of instances that cause issues.
Specifically how are you bedding? What areas etc? Pics?
I have been struggling with my zero a little this year. Show up at the range, check zero and it is off. Adjust it and it stays. I used to use a soft case locally and pelican traveling to matches. I have started using the pelican for all travel hoping that might help.
The other thing I am thinking is that when I remove my muzzle brake for cleaning and re-install it with some torque, the way I am doing that may be causing some action movement and/or screw/lug binding or contact in the chassis (I hold the chassis between my legs/feet and torque the muzzle brake).
I am planning on bedding a chassis and seeing the effect. What you are saying makes total sense to me.
Foundation Stocks - people are bedding?
I've seen a few guys saying they fully bedded their Foundation Stock. Anyone care to explain their decision to do this? Peace of mind? Poor mating/accuracy without? I just placed an order for an exodus. I've only shot chassis's and Foundation states their stocks don't require bedding/pillars...
www.snipershide.com
i basically just fill the recoil lug area and skim bed the rest...on a chassis with little support area for bedding material down the sides of the action, i just bed the front and rear pads and recoil lug area
Interesting thread.
However, I don't think it's the scopes. That doesn't add up.
It's either something else in the system, or, I'm more inclined to think it's possibly shooter related like @Enough Said states
However, I don't think it's the scopes. That doesn't add up.
It's either something else in the system, or, I'm more inclined to think it's possibly shooter related like @Enough Said states
I have the MPA with the barrel wedge thing on the recoil lug. I like that, so have to figure out how to bed the lug side to side and keep that...Foundation Stocks - people are bedding?
I've seen a few guys saying they fully bedded their Foundation Stock. Anyone care to explain their decision to do this? Peace of mind? Poor mating/accuracy without? I just placed an order for an exodus. I've only shot chassis's and Foundation states their stocks don't require bedding/pillars...
i basically just fill the recoil lug area and skim bed the rest...on a chassis with little support area for bedding material down the sides of the action, i just bed the front and rear pads and recoil lug area
