Storing, mixing and handling primers

lash · May 10, 2024

So I was looking at the website for Ramshot Powders and noticed this lengthy info blurb on primers.

Most of us have seen similar before, but it made me ask myself a few questions.

- what data sets were used to come to these conclusions? And where could one find them if interested?

- how much of this is lore and from old information or is this supported with current scientific studies?

- for number 1., I’ve seen various conflicting opinions on the effects of changing primer types in a load. All CAPS seems to indicate that this is a critical detail, yet I’ve not personally seen anything more than perhaps minor changes to results by changing from one brand to another. And most of that difference could have been within the noise of standard deviation.

-number 5. Is a rule broken all of the time by competition shooters for various reasons with no ill effects that I’m aware of.

- number 7. Is for factories and the OCD among us.

I’m interested to hear what others think and also in any hard data relating to the above posted warnings.

Doom · May 10, 2024

Well you ask an interesting question. I give some information:

NFPA and DOT have requirements for the transportation and storage of primers.

#2 and #3 The packaging is designed and tested to prevent the mass detonation of the package if one were to go off. Residential storage per NFPA 495 is required to be in original containers and there are limits for transportation and storage.

#4 It should be obvious that it is possible to detonate a primer by recapping it if enough shock force is applied.

#5 Don't know where this is from but it seems reasonable and the Bench Rest community probably agrees.

#7 The older mercuric primers were subject to contamination and that includes oil and sweat (urea and salt) and the compound was friable and poisonous. The lead primers used today are a hazardous substance but basically inert.

lash · May 10, 2024

So in a nutshell, most of that is just lawyer speak, though there are some reasonable and common sense points made, right?

What about NEVER mixing primer brands?

As for using the minimum primer to create ignition, many a competitor uses small magnum rifle primers in cartridges that normally use just regular SRP. Some claim that the get more consistent ignition and lower SD/ES numbers that way

In short, much of this is widely accepted reloading “knowledge” that may or may not be true. Just because something has a regulation controlling it does not necessarily mean it it supported by factual data.

Disclaimers:
The above is for stimulating discussion and searching for facts that support the statements.

Herb Stoner · May 10, 2024

lash · May 10, 2024

I think that there are people on here that have some of this information at their fingertips or at least know where to look.

sheepdog697 · May 10, 2024

i am guilty of number 3....

lash · May 10, 2024

sheepdog697 said:
i am guilty of number 3....

I mean, what experienced loader hasn’t broken numbers 1,3,4,5 & 7 at least once?

Again, my attorneys advise me to tell you to always follow the above six, ‘er seven rules as posted or face threat of lawsuit by some hackass doing something hack while on his third scotch.

Further, I don’t have any attorneys.

Ledzep · May 10, 2024

In line with what I've seen in my professional capacity and good recommendations.

As far as #3, I'm aware of people that are 1 degree away from me (I didn't know them but I know many that did) that have died from detonating a pile of loose primers. If I recall, one of them was from performing #4 with a bucket of live primers below the bench.

lash · May 10, 2024

Ledzep said:
In line with what I've seen in my professional capacity and good recommendations.

As far as #3, I'm aware of people that are 1 degree away from me (I didn't know them but I know many that did) that have died from detonating a pile of loose primers. If I recall, one of them was from performing #4 with a bucket of live primers below the bench.

Good data point.

I’d have to make note that the person doing reloading does have to recognize a serious safety concern, but that just supports why the list above is published. Not even giving the Darwin Award a chance.

Hardly seems fair.

Mike Casselton · May 10, 2024

I'd like for them to clarify #3.
Can we get a round number please?
I need to know if I'm stockpiling.

And I can add rule #8 in there.
Don't put 400 primers into the Vibra-Prime.
Don't get me wrong, it can handle that many.
It's the machine running at 4500 RPH that occasionally crushes a primer. Even though it's a slotted, one primer at a time kind of thing, it tends to set off all the remaining primers in the feed tube and the vibrating bowl.

I'm just glad the tube was surrounded by a stainless steel 3/4" tube.

Did I mention they will shoot upwards well over 30' and lodge into the insulation?

Scared the puddin outta me.

lash · May 10, 2024

So, looking for some data, I happened upon these gems: note the number of times each has been viewed.

XLR308 · May 10, 2024

sheepdog697 said:
i am guilty of number 3....

Rule #1 before #1 on list, NEVER ADMIT GUILT.

Doom · May 10, 2024

Mike Casselton said:
I'd like for them to clarify #3.
Can we get a round number please?
I need to know if I'm stockpiling.

And I can add rule #8 in there.
Don't put 400 primers into the Vibra-Prime.
Don't get me wrong, it can handle that many.
It's the machine running at 4500 RPH that occasionally crushes a primer. Even though it's a slotted, one primer at a time kind of thing, it tends to set off all the remaining primers in the feed tube and the vibrating bowl.

I'm just glad the tube was surrounded by a stainless steel 3/4" tube.

Did I mention they will shoot upwards well over 30' and lodge into the insulation?

Scared the puddin outta me.

As for #3 I would refer you to NFPA 495. I cannot copy the info. But for primers there is a 150,000 limit for residences for DOT 1.4S rated primers (on SDS) which is probably most or all of your reloading stock but there is also a 10,000 limit for all other primers. The problem comes in if you have ammunition. Since you don't know the rating for those then the limit is 10,000 total. (Discussion per NFPA).

Primers must remain in original package.

MO Fugga · May 10, 2024

It's like Kentucky Windage.

Mike Casselton · May 10, 2024

Doom said:
As for #3 I would refer you to NFPA 495. I cannot copy the info. But for primers there is a 150,000 limit for residences for DOT 1.4S rated primers (on SDS) which is probably most or all of your reloading stock but there is also a 10,000 limit for all other primers. The problem comes in if you have ammunition. Since you don't know the rating for those then the limit is 10,000 total. (Discussion per NFPA).

Primers must remain in original package.

I appreciate it.
I'm well aware of the residential limits. Have been for a long time.

Hopefully, someone else can use the info.

lash · May 10, 2024

Doom said:
As for #3 I would refer you to NFPA 495. I cannot copy the info. But for primers there is a 150,000 limit for residences for DOT 1.4S rated primers (on SDS) which is probably most or all of your reloading stock but there is also a 10,000 limit for all other primers. The problem comes in if you have ammunition. Since you don't know the rating for those then the limit is 10,000 total. (Discussion per NFPA).

Primers must remain in original package.

Hmmm… interesting.

So, would you think that whoever wrote that section has some sort of data that points to those numbers or are they self-generated?

Mike Casselton · May 10, 2024

Primers as loaded into brass or complete ammunition aren't considered hazardous.
They can be shipped through the mail without Hazmat placarding and certification.

What I find comical is the NFPC using DOT Hazard classification to make determinations on residential storage limits.

Storage and transport fall under different umbrellas.

Doom · May 11, 2024

Mike Casselton said:
Primers as loaded into brass or complete ammunition aren't considered hazardous.
They can be shipped through the mail without Hazmat placarding and certification.

What I find comical is the NFPC using DOT Hazard classification to make determinations on residential storage limits.

Storage and transport fall under different umbrellas.

It is not at all unusual for NFPA requirements to include requirements from other sources and vice versa. This often true with Engineering codes or standards adopting regulatory requirements or regulatory agencies writing code requirements into regulations. In this case transport and storage are linked because the product is shipped in containers/packaging for consumer consumption.

The following is a proposal from last year. The Department of Justice is proposing to amend Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (“ATF”) regulations to require that any person who stores explosive materials notify on an annual basis the authority having jurisdiction for fire safety in the locality in which the explosive materials are being stored of the type of explosives, magazine capacity, and location of each site where such materials are stored. In addition, the proposed rule requires any person who stores explosive materials to notify the authority having jurisdiction for fire safety in the locality in which the explosive materials were stored whenever storage is discontinued. These changes are intended to increase public safety.

This is actually NFPA 495 Sec 9.4.6.1 with a further requirement stating at "In addition"

It is an interesting study as to how industry codes become law and how laws affect industry codes.

lash said:
Hmmm… interesting.

So, would you think that whoever wrote that section has some sort of data that points to those numbers or are they self-generated?

I cannot say with certainty how those quantities were arrived at. Whaat I can cay is that it is likely that somewhere in the past an accident occurred that resulted in a need for some guidance to be needed. However the quantity was generated it was reviewed for acceptance by parties with intimate knowledge of the safety issues involved.

Mike Casselton · May 11, 2024

And yet, the average Fire Marshall/Inspector is totally clueless in what they are looking for and what they are looking at.

We had 10s of millions of primers stored on pallets less than 50' away from thousands of pounds of powder. Both were stored on a mezzanine accessible only by a forklift.
None of it was stored according to code, but Billy Bob the fireman thought it was okay by him.

The shipments we received were handled and delivered by people that actually spoke English and understood what they were carrying, how to handle it and where the Chemtrec number was in their cell phone.

^^^^^ up there you mentioned this in your cut and paste.

"In this case transport and storage are linked because the product is shipped in containers/packaging for consumer consumption."

That's not even remotely true.
Yes, I can buy 10 1# containers or 4 8# jugs. The shipper will usually leave them in the original shipping container out of convenience. Then, they will usually overpack the original container and then ship it out.

However, most powder that is purchased by consumers is bought from a display shelf at a store. The container will be its plastic jug, not a fiberboard box meeting a shippers hazclass in the IATA book.

The final destination is the handloaders bench where it will most likely end up on another shelf or cabinet.

Also, just so you know, gunpowder was recently reclassified from a flammable solid to an explosive. Black powder is a true explosive where smokeless is not. The reclassification was to make it convenient for the shippers.
It didn't. It did however, create another revenue stream.

Also, did you know the plastic containers that powder comes in are specifically designed to NOT build up pressure to allow any type of explosion? The heat of a fire will melt the plastic and allow the powder to spill out and create a jet like flame as it burns.

Where you are failing in this discussion is twofold:

1. None of us really give a damn what Uncle says we can have, or how much.

2. You are trying to come across as an expert, yet using cut and paste from a website and don't really have a good understanding of what you're quoting.

It's fine for discussion, but please, don't try and act like you're responsible for educating this great mass of the unwashed.

BTW, this was supposed to be a discussion about primer storage and use in the home, not transportation and storage of Reportable Quantities of powder/primers.

Now, I'm gonna drink my coffee because it's early and I haven't had any.

lash · May 11, 2024

So, we are back to my original questions. I’m still hoping to stir someone’s memory banks in the desire to know if these “rules”, while seemingly common sense applications and cautions have any basis in scientific fact.

Still waiting for input from anyone with any empirical knowledge of these three questions:

- how much of this is lore and from old information or is this supported with current scientific studies?

- for number 1., I’ve seen various conflicting opinions on the effects of changing primer types in a load. All CAPS seems to indicate that this is a critical detail, yet I’ve not personally seen anything more than perhaps minor changes to results by changing from one brand to another. And most of that difference could have been within the noise of standard deviation. To make this a question, does anyone have information either way regarding this?

-number 5. Is a rule broken all of the time by competition shooters for various reasons with no ill effects that I’m aware of. To make this a question, does anyone have information either way regarding this?

Doom · May 11, 2024

lash said:
So, we are back to my original questions. I’m still hoping to stir someone’s memory banks in the desire to know if these “rules”, while seemingly common sense applications and cautions have any basis in scientific fact.

Still waiting for input from anyone with any empirical knowledge of these three questions:

- how much of this is lore and from old information or is this supported with current scientific studies?

- for number 1., I’ve seen various conflicting opinions on the effects of changing primer types in a load. All CAPS seems to indicate that this is a critical detail, yet I’ve not personally seen anything more than perhaps minor changes to results by changing from one brand to another. And most of that difference could have been within the noise of standard deviation. To make this a question, does anyone have information either way regarding this?

I would speculate that since this is in conjunction with powder and Ramshot is suppling load data that this is a legal cover for deviation from the published load data.

lash said:
-number 5. Is a rule broken all of the time by competition shooters for various reasons with no ill effects that I’m aware of. To make this a question, does anyone have information either way regarding this?

#5 is not a rule. It is written as a recommendation. However, you must be aware that there is a trend in bench rest and F class to use small rifle primers in traditional Large Primer cartridges such as 308W and 6.5 CM to achieve lowersqandard deviations.

Doom · May 11, 2024

Mike Casselton said:
And yet, the average Fire Marshall/Inspector is totally clueless in what they are looking for and what they are looking at.

We had 10s of millions of primers stored on pallets less than 50' away from thousands of pounds of powder. Both were stored on a mezzanine accessible only by a forklift.
None of it was stored according to code, but Billy Bob the fireman thought it was okay by him.

The shipments we received were handled and delivered by people that actually spoke English and understood what they were carrying, how to handle it and where the Chemtrec number was in their cell phone.

^^^^^ up there you mentioned this in your cut and paste.

"In this case transport and storage are linked because the product is shipped in containers/packaging for consumer consumption."

That's not even remotely true.
Yes, I can buy 10 1# containers or 4 8# jugs. The shipper will usually leave them in the original shipping container out of convenience. Then, they will usually overpack the original container and then ship it out.

However, most powder that is purchased by consumers is bought from a display shelf at a store. The container will be its plastic jug, not a fiberboard box meeting a shippers hazclass in the IATA book.

The final destination is the handloaders bench where it will most likely end up on another shelf or cabinet.

Also, just so you know, gunpowder was recently reclassified from a flammable solid to an explosive. Black powder is a true explosive where smokeless is not. The reclassification was to make it convenient for the shippers.
It didn't. It did however, create another revenue stream.

Also, did you know the plastic containers that powder comes in are specifically designed to NOT build up pressure to allow any type of explosion? The heat of a fire will melt the plastic and allow the powder to spill out and create a jet like flame as it burns.

Where you are failing in this discussion is twofold:

1. None of us really give a damn what Uncle says we can have, or how much.

2. You are trying to come across as an expert, yet using cut and paste from a website and don't really have a good understanding of what you're quoting.

It's fine for discussion, but please, don't try and act like you're responsible for educating this great mass of the unwashed.

BTW, this was supposed to be a discussion about primer storage and use in the home, not transportation and storage of Reportable Quantities of powder/primers.

Now, I'm gonna drink my coffee because it's early and I haven't had any.

Mike,

Hope the coffee didn't get cold. Let's drop this back and forth as I think we have some miscommunications that would take a lot to clear up. But I do want to make a clarification on one. Original Container referred to in the NFPA storage in residences or in commercial/retail display of powder refers to the Bottle/package that contains the powder or the plastic tray and sleeve (this is DOT approved) that the primers are in. It is not the bulk shipping packaging.

A question for you. I am aware of the reclassification of smokeless powder but there are provisions to reclassify to Division 4.1 (Flammable Solid) for domestic transportation. Do you know if this ends up negating any changes in the shipping requirements?

Doom · May 11, 2024

@lash

This is related to #1.

What Affects Rifle Chamber Pressure and Critical Factors You Need to Know - RifleShooter

When a cartridge is fired, a progressive burn of the propellant converts it to rapidly expanding gas that exerts an equal amount of pressure in all directions. Maximum recommended pressure for a rifle cartridge is usually dictated by the action strength of the rifle for which it is developed.

www.rifleshootermag.com

I have seen a test on SRP and the difference was more extreme.

lash · May 11, 2024

Doom said:
@lash

This is related to #1.

What Affects Rifle Chamber Pressure and Critical Factors You Need to Know - RifleShooter

When a cartridge is fired, a progressive burn of the propellant converts it to rapidly expanding gas that exerts an equal amount of pressure in all directions. Maximum recommended pressure for a rifle cartridge is usually dictated by the action strength of the rifle for which it is developed.

www.rifleshootermag.com

I have seen a test on SRP and the difference was more extreme.

Okay, so let’s look for a minute at the chart they provided in that article.

A couple observations:

- note that the magnum primers resulted in lower or equal pressures in all except cci, which had a an increase of 500 c.u.p.

- the total maximum pressure variation between manufacturers is 1500 c.u.p., with all being well below SAAMI max pressure. - federal 210 and cci 200 were exactly the same.

Since this is one single load type and therefore a single data set, it is a start, but not conclusive. It is hardly scientifically supporting statements 1 and 5 conclusively.

I’m interested to see the data from the SRP test you saw.

Doom · May 11, 2024

I agree. As I said, I think #1 is more CYA than material. I don't know if anyone has run multiple control tests and I sorta doubt that the results would ever be 100% conclusive.

I can't find the SRP data. I'm thinking it was on German Salazar's blog but the may not be correct. I'm going to look at a couple of things in my reloading building but I don't think its there.

Doom · May 11, 2024

I found some LRP data in Lyman's 49th but nothing on SRP.

lash · May 11, 2024

I know that I’ve seen references to using SRP magnums in some of the 6BR variants and in things like 6 and 6.5 Creedmoor. Here on SH.

OkieMike · May 12, 2024

lash said:
So I was looking at the website for Ramshot Powders and noticed this lengthy info blurb on primers.

View attachment 8414969

Most of us have seen similar before, but it made me ask myself a few questions.

- what data sets were used to come to these conclusions? And where could one find them if interested?

- how much of this is lore and from old information or is this supported with current scientific studies?

- for number 1., I’ve seen various conflicting opinions on the effects of changing primer types in a load. All CAPS seems to indicate that this is a critical detail, yet I’ve not personally seen anything more than perhaps minor changes to results by changing from one brand to another. And most of that difference could have been within the noise of standard deviation.

-number 5. Is a rule broken all of the time by competition shooters for various reasons with no ill effects that I’m aware of.

- number 7. Is for factories and the OCD among us.

I’m interested to hear what others think and also in any hard data relating to the above posted warnings.

So WTF constitutes stockpiling?

Because one of the first things you learn about reloading is to buy in bulk to ensure matching lot/batch #'s... I literally bought new shelves to store my stockpile of components on. Substantial shelves.

After all, one of the sacred commandments is if you have to use a new lot of any component you're supposed to drop 10% and start over... This would turn into an abysmal cluster in short order. Especially when they were rationing powder purchases to 1 lb per day during the height of the shortage.

Someone wrote these guidelines way back (gets faraway Obi Wan stare) "Before the dark days. Before the empire."

Mike

lash · May 12, 2024

Stockpiling is defined by the agents that finally take action after you’ve gone full watch tower, even though they’ve been watching you and you’ve “been on their radar” for 25 years.

lash · May 12, 2024

Oh! Did I say that out loud?

Doom · May 12, 2024

Stockpiling is defied by whatever reporter is covering your story. Might be more than one gun, one round of ammunition, and absolutely more than one magazine. I can only imagine what they would do with 10,000 primers!

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