Are Berger bullets really better?

tinker · Jun 2, 2024

It was said here that "Bergers are the truth".

I know they are good and we talked about it.

I shot some and was a little surprised. I shot a bunch more too and just need to put all the data together.

Maurygold · Jun 2, 2024

You shot 10 rounds of each out of a single system with no details. Please don’t conflate any of this as testing.

tinker · Jun 2, 2024

Maurygold said:
You shot 10 rounds of each out of a single system with no details. Please don’t conflate any of this as testing.

you don't need my load. you need to make your own.

Apples to apples they shoot very similar. Also this is only the first tests.

tinker · Jun 2, 2024

Still compiling all the data from all 100 of each.

Maurygold · Jun 2, 2024

Just so people know. This is the 100 yard target he showed off on another thread. Lol

tinker · Jun 2, 2024

Maurygold said:
Just so people know. This is the 100 yard target he showed off on another thread. Lol

View attachment 8430853

Yes you can read. I am impressed. What was this target for???

morning would · Jun 3, 2024

tinker said:
Yes you can read. I am impressed. What was this target for???

Hellen Keller…..

Oh shit, you said what, not who. My bad.

HD1911 · Jun 3, 2024

Maurygold said:
Just so people know. This is the 100 yard target he showed off on another thread. Lol

View attachment 8430853

Not a bad pattern at 100y really, for 00 Buck and a Full Choke.

straightshooter1 · Jun 3, 2024

tinker said:
It was said here that "Bergers are the truth".

I know they are good and we talked about it.

I shot some and was a little surprised. I shot a bunch more too and just need to put all the data together.

Hmmm??? Based on my limited experience, what's makes Berger's worth it is their consistency within a lot. Other than Berger's, I also shoot SMK's and some Hornady A-Tips. I can get "accuracy" out of all of them. But the SMK's and Hornady's have not been as consistent, and that's really important to me in my quest to shoot small bug holes, like in the .3's or less (my guns are not capable of shooting .0's). Like you, I enjoy reloading. . . that is "precision" reloading to produce the best cartridges I can.

IMHO, whether Berger's are worth it really depends on the precision you really want or need for the type of shooting you're going.

Here's some 140 Hyb Bergers from a 6.5 PRC barrel that has over 1,900 rounds through it:

6.5 PRC Berger 140HYB N565 Fed210 - 2024-5-19.jpg

Gogga · Jun 3, 2024

Easy answer, weigh and measure some. I find Hornady, for instance, to have a lot more variation than Berger. That will show on the target, really depends on your expectations which is right for your application.

Dolomite · Jun 3, 2024

From my testing Berger does get a higher FPS comparing identical weight bullets of competitors. Price wise up to each individual caliber, weight, and powder all come into play. Try and test a 100 Berger against the competition based on your type of shooting.

Maurygold · Jun 3, 2024

Gogga said:
Easy answer, weigh and measure some. I find Hornady, for instance, to have a lot more variation than Berger. That will show on the target, really depends on your expectations which is right for your application.

^ This! People dont understand enough how much this matters not this fools 10 shot 100 yard groups out of what is most likely a factory gun

Gogga · Jun 3, 2024

Maurygold said:
^ This! People dont understand enough how much this matters not this fools 10 shot 100 yard groups out of what is most likely a factory gun

Yes, hence why I'm currently using Lapua as Bergers have gone missing over here for now. The Lapua bullet is not as "good" but is very consistent and shoots well in my factory Tikka. I looked at using some ELD-Ms but was surprised at the variation in just one box. My use is square range target so smaller groups matter. If I was shooting steel for fun I'd probably use something cheaper.

Gunfighter14e2 · Jun 3, 2024

Which is more important, a 1/100 gr in weight, 0.0001 OAL & consistent to the 6th decimal place B/C number,... Or the ability to read mother-nature better?

diggler1833 · Jun 3, 2024

I'd definitely incorporate a randomly selected 20 bullet sample from each manufacturer on the next video, and test bullet CBTO, diameter (with micrometer), OAL, and weight variations.

Bonus if you repeat the test with another lot from the same manufacturer later and compare results.

Some barrels just won't like some bullets. I've had amazingly consistent measurements with my last tests of the 107 and 130gr SMK...but I'm having a harder time getting that to transition on a paper target. Same 6mm barrel that struggled to develop a sub half-minute (consistent) group with the 107s, shoots 3/8 MOA with the 108gr ELD-M across almost a full 2gr of powder charge weight...even though the SMK in this case is much more consistent from bullet to bullet.

Gogga · Jun 3, 2024

Gunfighter14e2 said:
Which is more important, a 1/100 gr in weight, 0.0001 OAL & consistent to the 6th decimal place B/C number,... Or the ability to read mother-nature better?

Wind is a large factor. As with most things it depends. If you're great at reading the wind other factors may matter more as you've reduced the wind as a factor. If everything else is well controlled a bad barrel may be the biggest factor etc. It would be good to have a list of the factors in order of priority, new shooters can then work down them to get the biggest return on the effort/cost. As you say no point worrying about 1/4 inch when a bad wind call puts you two feet off the target!

tinker · Jun 3, 2024

Gogga said:
Easy answer, weigh and measure some. I find Hornady, for instance, to have a lot more variation than Berger. That will show on the target, really depends on your expectations which is right for your application.

I did weigh them (not all 500 of the bergers, but all 100 of each) and they were all about the same variance between both brands.

tinker · Jun 3, 2024

HD1911 said:
Not a bad pattern at 100y really, for 00 Buck and a Full Choke.

It's funny because you fell for what the moron was going for. That target that his well aware of or just can't comprehend is all single shots at 1" dots. The top row is my son, the bottom row is myself. I was working with my son on hitting one target and moving to the next and it is a reused target flipped over.

tinker · Jun 3, 2024

morning would said:
Hellen Keller…..

Oh shit, you said what, not who. My bad.

If only you knew what the target was for

tinker · Jun 3, 2024

straightshooter1 said:
Hmmm??? Based on my limited experience, what's makes Berger's worth it is their consistency within a lot. Other than Berger's, I also shoot SMK's and some Hornady A-Tips. I can get "accuracy" out of all of them. But the SMK's and Hornady's have not been as consistent, and that's really important to me in my quest to shoot small bug holes, like in the .3's or less (my guns are not capable of shooting .0's). Like you, I enjoy reloading. . . that is "precision" reloading to produce the best cartridges I can.

IMHO, whether Berger's are worth it really depends on the precision you really want or need for the type of shooting you're going.

Here's some 140 Hyb Bergers from a 6.5 PRC barrel that has over 1,900 rounds through it:
View attachment 8430893

that is what I am setting out to find out for myself. I always here people say they are worth it. I have never seen them put against each other. I am compiling the data from the rest of the lot, then also going to go through some others for fun. Like SMK, Lupua etc etc.

I am trying to see how much of a diff. So far after 20 5 shot groups.....it's not much different. There is a difference though.

Maurygold · Jun 3, 2024

tinker said:
I did weigh them (not all 500 of the bergers, but all 100 of each) and they were all about the same variance between both brands.

Nope. There are dozens of forums and users who will attest to the large variance on hornady in weight and oal vs the Berger.

tinker · Jun 3, 2024

Gunfighter14e2 said:
Which is more important, a 1/100 gr in weight, 0.0001 OAL & consistent to the 6th decimal place B/C number,... Or the ability to read mother-nature better?

That is a very qood. Question. So far I have only shot 20 5 shot groups of each. I have a feeling it's the latter.

Gogga · Jun 3, 2024

An analogy is from another interest of mine AV. If you have a decent set up there is a very noticeable difference between a 4K stream and a 4k Blu-ray. Similarly the better your rifle, the greater the distance and higher your accuracy needs, the more bullet variation will show up.

That said if you can shoot twice as much with cheaper components that's probably a better choice. There's a bigger difference in shooter skill than components.

Maurygold · Jun 3, 2024

Pick up a litz book and read anything about sampling and 100 yard groups. You aren’t a benchrest shooter and shooting small grouos over a distance not designed to extrapolate the variability so you’re really just playing odds against eachother not sampling.

tinker · Jun 3, 2024

diggler1833 said:
I'd definitely incorporate a randomly selected 20 bullet sample from each manufacturer on the next video, and test bullet CBTO, diameter (with micrometer), OAL, and weight variations.

Bonus if you repeat the test with another lot from the same manufacturer later and compare results.

Some barrels just won't like some bullets. I've had amazingly consistent measurements with my last tests of the 107 and 130gr SMK...but I'm having a harder time getting that to transition on a paper target. Same 6mm barrel that struggled to develop a sub half-minute (consistent) group with the 107s, shoots 3/8 MOA with the 108gr ELD-M across almost a full 2gr of powder charge weight...even though the SMK in this case is much more consistent from bullet to bullet.

I do enjoy reloading so that sounds like a good idea and also fun. So far the one lot of hornady was very consistent.

I do have decent mitotoyo & fowler mics to measure with. When I compared these I only went so far to measure with mitotoyo calipers and my chargemaster.

I use SMK 140 exclusively for my 6.5cm because I bought a ton of them and they have been performing decent.

I had posed the question about a year ago asking others when they felt a load was good enough. Meaning at what point do you stop trying to develop a load. At some point my shooting ability and reloading ability as well as the capability of the rig will all come into play. That was kind of what got me started down the rabbit hole of not only trying diff calibers but also diff bullet brands.

tinker · Jun 3, 2024

Gogga said:
An analogy is from another interest of mine AV. If you have a decent set up there is a very noticeable difference between a 4K stream and a 4k Blu-ray. Similarly the better your rifle, the greater the distance and higher your accuracy needs, the more bullet variation will show up.

That said if you can shoot twice as much with cheaper components that's probably a better choice. There's a bigger difference in shooter skill than components.

For myself I agree. I don't claim to be an F class shooter. I just enjoy getting out of the house once a month or so for maybe an hour to take a break from everything. When my rig, reloading skills, and shooting skills limit me to shooting just under 1/2 moa with either.....I will likely just enjoy playing around diff brands as much as sticking to just one but will shoot more with less cost.

Maurygold · Jun 3, 2024

Have you considered the Berger hybrid being more forgiving at multiple seating depths? The bullet performs quite consistently between 20-40 thou off and the manufacturing inconsistency in the hornady is not as forgiving.

You also said they measure nearly the same - everyone who has touched both knows this is wildly inaccurate.

You gave no data about the rifle, components, process to develop these loads you compared.

I’m gonna guess from this thread you already developed a load for the hornady and use hornady are trying to justify the cheaper bullet being “just as good”

tinker · Jun 3, 2024

Maurygold said:
Have you considered the Berger hybrid being more forgiving at multiple seating depths? The bullet performs quite consistently between 20-40 thou off and the manufacturing inconsistency in the hornady is not as forgiving.

You also said they measure nearly the same - everyone who has touched both knows this is wildly inaccurate.

You gave no data about the rifle, components, process to develop these loads you compared.

I’m gonna guess from this thread you already developed a load for the hornady and use hornady are trying to justify the cheaper bullet being “just as good”

and you would be wrong. I developed a load for the bergers. Then adapted the load to the hornady. But in that video you are only see the results of the beginning of testing.

The data you are asking for is irrelevant. It's same weight and type with a slightly diff shape. If the bergers are so much better I would not be able to get results almost as good. The question you aren't seeing for some reason is this isn't IF bergers are better. Do they make a big enough diff to merit the cost?

Both loads shoot better than factory lapua.

Maurygold · Jun 3, 2024

tinker said:
and you would be wrong. I developed a load for the bergers. Then adapted the load to the hornady. But in that video you are only see the results of the beginning of testing.

The data you are asking for is irrelevant. It's same weight and type with a slightly diff shape. If the bergers are so much better I would not be able to get results almost as good. The question you aren't seeing for some reason is this isn't IF bergers are better. Do they make a big enough diff to merit the cost?

Both loads shoot better than factory lapua.

Show us the sd/es.

Like I said - you aren’t testing. You’re trying to prove the cheaper bullet is just as good and that’s not subjective.

You won’t change anyones mind with a few shots at 100 yards and withholding all relevant data

tinker · Jun 3, 2024

Maurygold said:
Show us the sd/es.

Like I said - you aren’t testing. You’re trying to prove the cheaper bullet is just as good and that’s not subjective.

You won’t change anyones mind with a few shots at 100 yards and withholding all relevant data

Just for you I will include them in part 2

37L1 · Jun 3, 2024

Shoot them all at 1000 yards. Come back with the results.

Or don't.

LR1845 · Jun 3, 2024

37L1 said:
Shoot them all at 1000 yards. Come back with the results.

Or don't.

Or even 600yds.

straightshooter1 · Jun 3, 2024

tinker said:
that is what I am setting out to find out for myself. I always here people say they are worth it. I have never seen them put against each other. I am compiling the data from the rest of the lot, then also going to go through some others for fun. Like SMK, Lupua etc etc.

I am trying to see how much of a diff. So far after 20 5 shot groups.....it's not much different. There is a difference though.

Am looking forward to seeing what you're able to find out. Unless you're shooting at a 1000 yds, I have doubts much difference, if any, can be see and 100.

Baron23 · Jun 3, 2024

37L1 said:
Shoot them all at 1000 yards. Come back with the results.

Or don't.

LR1845 said:
Or even 600yds.

Yeah, I was going to say stretch them out...even 300 yds on paper target should do.

Doom · Jun 3, 2024

Watching that video was a waste of time.

LR1845 · Jun 3, 2024

Doom said:
Watching that video was a waste of time.

He admits he is not and experienced shooter or reloader but is going to test bullets.

JB.IC · Jun 3, 2024

Maurygold said:
Have you considered the Berger hybrid being more forgiving at multiple seating depths? The bullet performs quite consistently between 20-40 thou off and the manufacturing inconsistency in the hornady is not as forgiving.

You also said they measure nearly the same - everyone who has touched both knows this is wildly inaccurate.

You gave no data about the rifle, components, process to develop these loads you compared.

I’m gonna guess from this thread you already developed a load for the hornady and use hornady are trying to justify the cheaper bullet being “just as good”

That’s 100 each and look who owns the bottom three spots.

DocRDS · Jun 3, 2024

The real question is are Bergers worth the cost over alternatives?
Some days, yes, some days no. Depends on what Im doing.

PRS crap doesn't matter.
F-CLass/Benchrest, yeah it matters.
Hunting? doesn't matter (but volume is low)

Basher · Jun 3, 2024

DocRDS said:
The real question is are Bergers worth the cost over alternatives?
Some days, yes, some days no. Depends on what Im doing.

PRS crap doesn't matter.
F-CLass/Benchrest, yeah it matters.
Hunting? doesn't matter (but volume is low)

This.

I can’t outshoot an ELD-M. Now, if I was shooting Bergers it would eliminate the rare “was that me?” kind of miss, but 99/100 times it’s me anyway. So I’ve chosen to stock up on ELDs and V-Maxes because they’re inexpensive for the performance you get, and “good enough” right now with high enough BCs to get me the trigger time I need to get better. Once I can outshoot those and/or I’m shooting a discipline where it matters, maybe I’ll consider bumping up. Until then, the ELDs are doing fine for me.

Maurygold · Jun 3, 2024

JB.IC said:
That’s 100 each and look who owns the bottom three spots.

View attachment 8431452

Nice data. This is awesome

DeathBeforeDismount · Jun 3, 2024

Maurygold said:
Just so people know. This is the 100 yard target he showed off on another thread. Lol

View attachment 8430853

Is that a 12 or 20 gauge?

DeathBeforeDismount · Jun 3, 2024

Hey OP....what about BC consistency...ya know...the thing that ACTUALLY matters for down range performance.

Look at all the br, fclass and prs guys winning championships and setting records with hornady....oh wait..they aren't.

Seen a ton of hornady bullets blow up at matches and in training classes. Have yet to see a berger do that. Want to take a guess what that indicates?

Click bait from people who no one should be listening to. Dudes trying to get people to watch his vids, and it looks like no one is.

DeathBeforeDismount · Jun 3, 2024

Maurygold said:
Nope. There are dozens of forums and users who will attest to the large variance on hornady in weight and oal vs the Berger.

It's not so much the OAL as the ogive, the bearing surface and tail dimensions.

I asked litz about this when I discovered oal variance between lots of 109s. He said not to worry about it as the bearing surface and ogive dimensions are the same and it should shoot the same lot to lot. I tested it and found to be true.

Hornady is an order of magnitude worse is variability from jacket thickness to critical dimensions. It's one of the reasons they start to blow up once they hit 290k+ rpm. Fast twist and high velocity ( such as a 6 creed going 3k+ and a 7 twist barel) is bad juju. Meanwhile they tested 6mm bergers with a 4 twist barrel to see if they would shoot better and they held together. Do the math on that.

DocRDS · Jun 4, 2024

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Hey OP....what about BC consistency...ya know...the thing that ACTUALLY matters for down range performance.

Look at all the br, fclass and prs guys winning championships and setting records with hornady....oh wait..they aren't.

Seen a ton of hornady bullets blow up at matches and in training classes. Have yet to see a berger do that. Want to take a guess what that indicates?

Click bait from people who no one should be listening to. Dudes trying to get people to watch his vids, and it looks like no one is.

No you haven't you're full of your usual shit.

Berger can be better than Hornady without Hornady (or Speer, or SIerra or whatever) self-nuking mid flight. GO practice your PRS positions more and stop trolling. Thats why your midpack bigboi. Its never X is better than Y, its X is better than Y and Y molests small children while voting for Biden with you.

Shoots 700's · Jun 5, 2024

Yes, Berger are better

waveslayer · Jun 5, 2024

With Bergers the tips don't melt off, or throw a lot of marketing down range at you

jsthntn247 · Jun 8, 2024

I’ve had guns I wanted to throw away from trying multiple different bullets. Then I run some Bergers through it and it bug holes. Yes they are better. However they’re not always better for each hunting situation even if they shoot better.

Cody S · Jun 8, 2024

I regret not documenting my experiments years ago to save people a bit of money or temper their expectations.
for me... depends..
108 eldm group great and the berger hybrids group equally great at 100 yards. I have gotten more bugholes and .0s for 5 shots than I care to count
115 dtac are harder(not impossible) to get to group well at 100 yards but they do so damn good at 1k..
I like superior shooting systems llc. 115gr DTAC(manufactured by sierra). I can hand load and tune, plus I can't shoot the difference in groups at 1k yards where I mainly use this bullet. plus they're cheaper.
I'm telling you because I just bought my next year's worth and they are in the mail.
bergers do group slightly easier IME but again, 1/4 moa is fine for me for 5 shots and I have had no trouble getting that out of the dtacs so far. if you want that 1/8th moa precision shit you may want to reconsider.
hornadys can perform REALLY well out to 400 yards for the money. once you go beyond that, the groups open up slightly. I am a bit of an f class 1k guy so these things matter to me and it's difficult to get a load with 108eldm to consistently land under 1/4moa with fliers at 1k even with gucci shit and all the preparations. bergers are definitely up to the task and will shrink your groups at long ranges, in my experience from 1/2moa to 1/4moa with excellent repeatability.
the dtacs have a stupid high bc, are almost as forgiving about seating as hornady eldm and berger hybrid, and the groups at 1k are tight as a ticks ass, plus when you send them at 3150 in a 6 creed... let's just say I barely have to dial my scope.
in my humble opinion 6 creed is God's cartridge and shall remain so for the foreseeable future.

TheOE800 · Jun 8, 2024

Cody S said:
for me... no.
I like superior shooting systems llc. 115gr DTAC(manufactured by sierra). I can hand load and tune, plus I can't shoot the difference in groups at 1k yards where I mainly use this bullet. plus they're cheaper.
I'm telling you because I just bought my next year's worth and they are in the mail.

I looked at buying ~2K DTACs and with the $100 shipping (why??) to the Mid-Atlantic they end up costing as much as I’ve bought Berger projectiles for.

Cody S · Jun 8, 2024

TheOE800 said:
I looked at buying ~2K DTACs and with the $100 shipping (why??) to the Mid-Atlantic they end up costing as much as I’ve bought Berger projectiles for.

yes I just noticed that... it fkn hurt! if you find anywhere cheaper for the love of God post it lol I'd love to buy enough for the next decade or so. jsyk I paid 42 cents each for this most recent batch. I'm not *as* happy with the price this year as years past lol. used to be it was 20 to 25 cents per piece...
fkn politicians...

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