It makes it exceedingly easy to see which 3 cartridges I should use for cold-barrel/fouling purposes ...
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Just one of the reasons I love my AMP Press
- Thread starter rustyinbend
- Start date
I'd be curious... if you ran a double blind test, where someone else hands you the rounds as you put them down range at distance... would you actually be able to shoot the difference?
Not saying you can't, or that I could, but I'm always interested in how much some of the stuff actually matters.
Not saying you can't, or that I could, but I'm always interested in how much some of the stuff actually matters.
Would love to see the data you have showing those outliers actually perform significantly different than the rest.
Have had two amp presses since they were released.
Haven’t been able to find any correlation unless there’s something way out of wack.
And no one I know, and nothing I’ve been able to find on forums and other such all over, has anyone shown outliers that close to be of any consequence.
As much as I think those things are super cool, and I still want one myself... but that's about what I've been hearing as well.
wow. that's why nowadays everybody with AMP press are winning competitions...
oh wait, champions are reloading on a dillon !?
oh wait, champions are reloading on a dillon !?
That’s completely different than what the OP posted. Hence my second post saying it had to be an extreme outlier.
That example is twice the peak seating force. 62lbs vs 124lbs
Also, if you’re using Cortina for any type of real data, you’re barking up the wrong tree.
Cortina is worlds closer to real data than anything you put out. At least he’s a highly accomplished shooter sharing his knowledge - remind us how many national shooting comps you’ve won at the 1k yard line…..
Lots of good perspective. Those three high seating force cartridges were #'s 4, 5, and 6. Instead of using them for cold-bore shots, I'll leave them in the mix and plot where they land for velocity and accuracy when I hit the range next week. Maybe I'll get some interesting data, although as I mentioned ... culling outliers is just one of the things I like about the AMP Press. There are others.
You're probably right, but with my lousy eyes at long distances ... I'll take all the help I can get. I do use my AMP Press to cull outliers, but I mostly use it to verify the consistency of my brass-prep process. On the batches that I anneal properly, size consistently, and lube well ... I get nice tight seating force graphs. Where I don't ... I don't. Isn't "knowing" your seating force and the consistency thereof ... better than "not knowing"? To me, this is a tool in the toolbox, kind of like a concentricity gauge, or a mandrel die, or a micrometer, or a (fill in the blank). It's a tool that helps me build and verify as much consistency into my reloading process as I possibly can. And since it's the final step in that whole process where all the good and bad comes together into a single number (and range) ... I believe it's meaningful. Like they say ... "Haters gonna hate" ... but I like this gadget and think it helps me build better cartridges.
That's a weird way of saying you agree with Rio.
This has been around for years. Ever since the hydraulic presses in f class people have been looking at this. The amp press didn’t change anything it just provided more resolution to something we knew wasn’t going to matter. (Thats why f class and benchrest shooters don’t use moly)
And for a change, yes - rio and me are in agreement on this and he hasn’t yet tried to overcomplicate it to talk over people unnecessarily.
Interestingly, certain individuals will laugh at one post and like another, which say the same thing, but differ only in poster. Predictable.
I'll give you one more reason why this matters, derived from a recent reloading situation. There I was, all ready to start seating bullets on my 300-NM Barrett MRAD. I tried to seat the first one, and the seating force was off-the charts high. There was so much pressure it literally couldn't fully seat the bullet. Long story short ... I had made a mistake and missed the mandrel step, meaning that my neck was fixed by the bushing (.333) instead of the mandrel I use for this caliber (.308). I mandrelled the cases, and started again, and got a nice tight seating curve well within the ranges I like for that caliber. Just out of curiosity, I tried seating a bullet that I hadn't mandrelled using a single-stage press and a Redding Competition Seating Die ... and it seated just fine. The AMP Press exposed a big mistake on the first attempt to seat a bullet. Had I been using a normal manual seating die, I would have seated all 40+ bullets into a case neck that was WAY smaller than I intended. Just one more thing I like about my AMP Press ... it exposes mistakes very early in the seating process, this time being on the very first bullet.
Mandrels arent necessary at all. (I consistently shoot 5-8sd no mandrel, no moly, no brush, no amp, no anneal). over complicating the process leads to room for error for nominal if not zero gains. Maybe that would have been a better takeaway.
I do think it's "interesting" ... that many of the guys the "poo-poo" at the advantages that the AMP Press provides, will elsewhere talk about their preferences for miniscule PITA things like neck-turning, weighing/sorting brass, using steel pins in wet tumblers, etc.. I wonder what they'd say if I was to offer to buy their AMP Press for them (which I'm NOT) ... my guess is that it would quickly reserve a place of honor and accessibility on their reloading bench. LOL
I do disagree, but will defend to the death your right to that perspective. I've learned that sizing "down" with a bushing and then sizing "up" with a mandrel, gives me my very best concentricity ... assuming of course that I'm annealing on every firing. That's what I do, and it works for me. You do you.
You’re in for a big surprise if you think concentricity is correlated to accuracy either…..
Also anyone on this forum can easily afford a hydro press. The amp does the same thing for a lot more but anyone could easily gather the same data. And what you’ll find is those that have and shoot 690 and 1k over shotmarker can’t see the difference on paper. Same for concentricity.
I could write a narrative about how it would take around 300 or more rounds to massage out a difference in forces that would be so small it would not matter or you’d never see a difference but probably 1/4 to 1/2 your barrel life is gone for nothing. Was it the seating force, throat erosion, primer, bore conditions, bullet, was it you, etc.? Hell, even tuner guys believe station pressure and humidity change their groups…
However, if I was competing in a national level competition and throwing $1000-2000 in transport, lodging; food, etc., I’m tossing out any and all traces that are questionable. When I was competing in regional PRS matches, the difference between first, second, and sometimes third place was only one point or time on the tie breaker stage. When I won two 1MOA LR matches, I sorted by seating forces because the RCC brass I was using had some weird ass seating force variation but the match only needed around 25 rounds so it wasn’t a big ask. That’s easy enough. Of course, that was before the AMP Press even existed or was even a conceived by AMP. At the very least, the AMP press is a diagnostic tool. At worst, it’s an automatic press. I quite like it as an automatic press.
However, if I was competing in a national level competition and throwing $1000-2000 in transport, lodging; food, etc., I’m tossing out any and all traces that are questionable. When I was competing in regional PRS matches, the difference between first, second, and sometimes third place was only one point or time on the tie breaker stage. When I won two 1MOA LR matches, I sorted by seating forces because the RCC brass I was using had some weird ass seating force variation but the match only needed around 25 rounds so it wasn’t a big ask. That’s easy enough. Of course, that was before the AMP Press even existed or was even a conceived by AMP. At the very least, the AMP press is a diagnostic tool. At worst, it’s an automatic press. I quite like it as an automatic press.
Did you read the part where he said he basically said he closed the neck ID but forgot to expand again with his chosen tool…a mandrel vs expander ball.
So, I bet in your simplified reloading process sans mandrel that you do use and expander ball. Right?
gee thats a given... i use the 21 century hydra arbor press. i have been able ,with mandrils , to get very lite tension prefer to get 60-80 psi . i have wondered if the guys that seat to jam would prefer lite neck tension.
Good catch ... the guy that says "I don't mandrel" but uses the die-mounted expander ball ... is essentially doing the same thing. I guess the only other option is to use a bushing die and load with the bushing that gives you the end-state neck diameter than you want. Different roads - same destination.
Lolol let me help you understand reloading. If you don’t use a mandrel, then you have to use an expander. (Something must resize the case neck) expanders come with all dies. There is nothing wrong with them. It is hard to forget to mandrel or changes mandrels if you don’t use them. Mandrels serve very little benefit and only benefit those at the top 5% already. Adding steps with risk that have very little benefit are not good procedures in my book.
"Tinkering" with the recipe and the tools is that part that's fun for me, and it keeps my brain busy. I'm retired, and have all the time in the world to chase the "perfect" cartridge.
yep me to .would be at the range now but it rained . its was just cut to improve berms .its clay ,no drainage. it will have sand overlayed but no one is in a hurry to get it done
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True Dat ... all it would have taken was to more closely examine the bin tag where I got the cases. Missed that whole "Neolube" and "Mandrel" step that are at the end of my process. Definitely my mistake ... coulda' swore I saw those last three "X" marks ... but discovered by my AMP Press on the first seating.One of those doesn’t require an amp to figure out you forgot to change mandrels
Let me help you understand something, you are a constant arrogant jerk off.
You gave Rusty shit about using a mandrel when you do the exact same fucking thing except with an expander ball.
Oh yeah, that’s right…when called on it you drop back to that terribly important reason that you can’t forget to use the ball.
GTFO.
Penmanship used to be better, but sadly that's a casualty of my Parkinson's. One of the common symptoms is that as you write across a line of paper, the letters get smaller and smaller. It's a crazy disease. I can hold a precision rifle solidly immobile and hit a 2'x2' target at a mile ... but I can't peel a friggin' banana or screw in a lightbulb. Makes me crazy sometimes ...Nice quality in the blue ink writing as well ... Its not perfect ofc but no big outliers in penmanship
I use mandrels and see the benefit . I also win competitions . I believe you are spot on .
Let me help you understand something, you are a constant arrogant jerk off.
You gave Rusty shit about using a mandrel when you do the exact same fucking thing except with an expander ball.
Oh yeah, that’s right…when called on it you drop back to that terribly important reason that you can’t forget to use the ball.
GTFO.
I gave him shit for that being a good reason to use an amp. Use your eyes and don’t forget your blood thinners.
I guess I thought the whole "Die Expander Ball vs. Mandrel Die" fight had been fought ... and the mandrels won. I'll have to go back and check the history books on that.
You're trying to take all the fun out of load development and "tinkering". I compete every once in a while, but usually I'm just competing against myself and what I'm capable of doing. Every time I load, I'm trying to do something just a little better than the last time, that results in just a little lower SD, and shoots just a little smaller group, at a little longer distance. For me, that's truly the joy of this hobby. That, and trying not to take myself too seriously when I build or shoot something that ends up out in the weeds..
Here’s 5 cases right off my bench. 308 bushing (that the size not the caliber for people who don’t know reloading @Baron23). Perfect id and od with expander and bushing. And as we’ve already settled above concentricity doesn’t correlate to target (there’s no concentricity argument anyways because these came out of a Whidden custom die) I’m not taking the fun out but people have been testing these things for a long time and have wisdom about what works and helps and what might not. You want fun and to test things - put the mandrel down and go get a tuner.
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I've actually thought about a barrel tuner, but right now, everything has an ASR Brake and I shoot everything suppressed. I'll need to look into barrel-tuning with a suppressor in the mix. That said, I had hinky results years ago when I started using an expander ball, and have had none of those problems with mandrels ... so ... I'll probably leave that part of my process alone (for now).
The suppressor already provides the proven benefits of a tuner, without the snake oil side of the adjustability.
