It makes it exceedingly easy to see which 3 cartridges I should use for cold-barrel/fouling purposes ...
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I'd be curious... if you ran a double blind test, where someone else hands you the rounds as you put them down range at distance... would you actually be able to shoot the difference?
Not saying you can't, or that I could, but I'm always interested in how much some of the stuff actually matters.
Have had two amp presses since they were released.
Haven’t been able to find any correlation unless there’s something way out of wack.
And no one I know, and nothing I’ve been able to find on forums and other such all over, has anyone shown outliers that close to be of any consequence.
You can see that very thing here.Would love to see the data you have showing those outliers actually perform significantly different than the rest.
You can see that very thing here.
That’s completely different than what the OP posted. Hence my second post saying it had to be an extreme outlier.
That example is twice the peak seating force. 62lbs vs 124lbs
Also, if you’re using Cortina for any type of real data, you’re barking up the wrong tree.
Lots of good perspective. Those three high seating force cartridges were #'s 4, 5, and 6. Instead of using them for cold-bore shots, I'll leave them in the mix and plot where they land for velocity and accuracy when I hit the range next week. Maybe I'll get some interesting data, although as I mentioned ... culling outliers is just one of the things I like about the AMP Press. There are others.
You're probably right, but with my lousy eyes at long distances ... I'll take all the help I can get. I do use my AMP Press to cull outliers, but I mostly use it to verify the consistency of my brass-prep process. On the batches that I anneal properly, size consistently, and lube well ... I get nice tight seating force graphs. Where I don't ... I don't. Isn't "knowing" your seating force and the consistency thereof ... better than "not knowing"? To me, this is a tool in the toolbox, kind of like a concentricity gauge, or a mandrel die, or a micrometer, or a (fill in the blank). It's a tool that helps me build and verify as much consistency into my reloading process as I possibly can. And since it's the final step in that whole process where all the good and bad comes together into a single number (and range) ... I believe it's meaningful. Like they say ... "Haters gonna hate" ... but I like this gadget and think it helps me build better cartridges.As long as you understand there is no correlation between those graphs and the target.
That's a weird way of saying you agree with Rio.As long as you understand there is no correlation between those graphs and the target.
That's a weird way of saying you agree with Rio.
are you saying neck tension does not mater?Have had two amp presses since they were released.
Haven’t been able to find any correlation unless there’s something way out of wack.
And no one I know, and nothing I’ve been able to find on forums and other such all over, has anyone shown outliers that close to be of any consequence.
No. Not based on that post, anyway.are you saying neck tension does not mater?
I'll give you one more reason why this matters, derived from a recent reloading situation. There I was, all ready to start seating bullets on my 300-NM Barrett MRAD. I tried to seat the first one, and the seating force was off-the charts high. There was so much pressure it literally couldn't fully seat the bullet. Long story short ... I had made a mistake and missed the mandrel step, meaning that my neck was fixed by the bushing (.333) instead of the mandrel I use for this caliber (.308). I mandrelled the cases, and started again, and got a nice tight seating curve well within the ranges I like for that caliber. Just out of curiosity, I tried seating a bullet that I hadn't mandrelled using a single-stage press and a Redding Competition Seating Die ... and it seated just fine. The AMP Press exposed a big mistake on the first attempt to seat a bullet. Had I been using a normal manual seating die, I would have seated all 40+ bullets into a case neck that was WAY smaller than I intended. Just one more thing I like about my AMP Press ... it exposes mistakes very early in the seating process, this time being on the very first bullet.
I do think it's "interesting" ... that many of the guys the "poo-poo" at the advantages that the AMP Press provides, will elsewhere talk about their preferences for miniscule PITA things like neck-turning, weighing/sorting brass, using steel pins in wet tumblers, etc.. I wonder what they'd say if I was to offer to buy their AMP Press for them (which I'm NOT) ... my guess is that it would quickly reserve a place of honor and accessibility on their reloading bench. LOLare you saying neck tension does not mater?
I do disagree, but will defend to the death your right to that perspective. I've learned that sizing "down" with a bushing and then sizing "up" with a mandrel, gives me my very best concentricity ... assuming of course that I'm annealing on every firing. That's what I do, and it works for me. You do you.Mandrels arent necessary at all. (I consistently shoot 5-8sd no mandrel, no moly, no brush, no amp, no anneal). over complicating the process leads to room for error for nominal if not zero gains. Maybe that would have been a better takeaway.
I do disagree, but will defend to the death your right to that perspective. I've learned that sizing "down" with a bushing and then sizing "up" with a mandrel, gives me my very best concentricity ... assuming of course that I'm annealing on every firing. That's what I do, and it works for me. You do you.
Did you read the part where he said he basically said he closed the neck ID but forgot to expand again with his chosen tool…a mandrel vs expander ball.Mandrels arent necessary at all. (I consistently shoot 5-8sd no mandrel, no moly, no brush, no amp, no anneal). over complicating the process leads to room for error for nominal if not zero gains. Maybe that would have been a better takeaway.
gee thats a given... i use the 21 century hydra arbor press. i have been able ,with mandrils , to get very lite tension prefer to get 60-80 psi . i have wondered if the guys that seat to jam would prefer lite neck tension.Without neck tension, a bullet doesn’t stay in a case. Of course it matters. That wasn’t what I took away from the post at all.
Good catch ... the guy that says "I don't mandrel" but uses the die-mounted expander ball ... is essentially doing the same thing. I guess the only other option is to use a bushing die and load with the bushing that gives you the end-state neck diameter than you want. Different roads - same destination.So, I bet in your simplified reloading process sans mandrel that you do use and expander ball. Right?
Did you read the part where he said he basically said he closed the neck ID but forgot to expand again with his chosen tool…a mandrel vs expander ball.
So, I bet in your simplified reloading process sans mandrel that you do use and expander ball. Right?
Lolol let me help you understand reloading. If you don’t use a mandrel, then you have to use an expander. (Something must resize the case neck) expanders come with all dies. There is nothing wrong with them. It is hard to forget to mandrel or changes mandrels if you don’t use them. Mandrels serve very little benefit and only benefit those at the top 5% already. Adding steps with risk that have very little benefit are not good procedures in my book.
"Tinkering" with the recipe and the tools is that part that's fun for me, and it keeps my brain busy. I'm retired, and have all the time in the world to chase the "perfect" cartridge.Lolol let me help you understand reloading. If you don’t use a mandrel, then you have to use an expander. (Something must resize the case neck) expanders come with all dies. There is nothing wrong with them. It is hard to forget to mandrel or changes mandrels if you don’t use them. Mandrels serve very little benefit and only benefit those at the top 5% already. Adding steps with risk that have very little benefit are not good procedures in my book.
David Tubb seats to jam and doesn’t even anneal.gee thats a given... i use the 21 century hydra arbor press. i have been able ,with mandrils , to get very lite tension prefer to get 60-80 psi . i have wondered if the guys that seat to jam would prefer lite neck tension.
Have to? False.Lolol let me help you understand reloading. If you don’t use a mandrel, then you have to use an expander. (Something must resize the case neck) expanders come with all dies. There is nothing wrong with them. It is hard to forget to mandrel or changes mandrels if you don’t use them. Mandrels serve very little benefit and only benefit those at the top 5% already. Adding steps with risk that have very little benefit are not good procedures in my book.
yep me to .would be at the range now but it rained . its was just cut to improve berms .its clay ,no drainage. it will have sand overlayed but no one is in a hurry to get it done"Tinkering" with the recipe and the tools is that part that's fun for me, and it keeps my brain busy. I'm retired, and have all the time in the world to chase the "perfect" cartridge.
True Dat ... all it would have taken was to more closely examine the bin tag where I got the cases. Missed that whole "Neolube" and "Mandrel" step that are at the end of my process. Definitely my mistake ... coulda' swore I saw those last three "X" marks ... but discovered by my AMP Press on the first seating.One of those doesn’t require an amp to figure out you forgot to change mandrels![]()
ya well there may be more to the storyDavid Tubb seats to jam and doesn’t even anneal.
Let me help you understand something, you are a constant arrogant jerk off.Lolol let me help you understand reloading. If you don’t use a mandrel, then you have to use an expander. (Something must resize the case neck) expanders come with all dies. There is nothing wrong with them. It is hard to forget to mandrel or changes mandrels if you don’t use them. Mandrels serve very little benefit and only benefit those at the top 5% already. Adding steps with risk that have very little benefit are not good procedures in my book.
Penmanship used to be better, but sadly that's a casualty of my Parkinson's. One of the common symptoms is that as you write across a line of paper, the letters get smaller and smaller. It's a crazy disease. I can hold a precision rifle solidly immobile and hit a 2'x2' target at a mile ... but I can't peel a friggin' banana or screw in a lightbulb. Makes me crazy sometimes ...Nice quality in the blue ink writing as well ... Its not perfect ofc but no big outliers in penmanship
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I use mandrels and see the benefit . I also win competitions . I believe you are spot on .Mandrels serve very little benefit and only benefit those at the top 5% already. Adding steps with risk that have very little benefit are not good procedures in my book.
Let me help you understand something, you are a constant arrogant jerk off.
You gave Rusty shit about using a mandrel when you do the exact same fucking thing except with an expander ball.
Oh yeah, that’s right…when called on it you drop back to that terribly important reason that you can’t forget to use the ball.
GTFO.![]()
You're trying to take all the fun out of load development and "tinkering". I compete every once in a while, but usually I'm just competing against myself and what I'm capable of doing. Every time I load, I'm trying to do something just a little better than the last time, that results in just a little lower SD, and shoots just a little smaller group, at a little longer distance. For me, that's truly the joy of this hobby. That, and trying not to take myself too seriously when I build or shoot something that ends up out in the weeds..It’s in no way necessary to shoot 5-8 sd. (Yes I’m talking about 15-20 rounds). If I were shooting elr, f class or benchrest comps and looking for 1-3 sd, then yes it may add value.
I've actually thought about a barrel tuner, but right now, everything has an ASR Brake and I shoot everything suppressed. I'll need to look into barrel-tuning with a suppressor in the mix. That said, I had hinky results years ago when I started using an expander ball, and have had none of those problems with mandrels ... so ... I'll probably leave that part of my process alone (for now).Here’s 5 cases right off my bench. 308 bushing. Perfect id and od with expander and bushing. I’m not taking the fun out but people have been testing these things for a long time and have wisdom about what works and helps and what might not. You want fun and to test things - put the mandrel down and go get a tuner.
LOL at using a caliper.Here’s 5 cases right off my bench. 308 bushing (that the size not the caliber for people who don’t know reloading @Baron23). Perfect id and od with expander and bushing. And as we’ve already settled above concentricity doesn’t correlate to target (there’s no concentricity argument anyways because these came out of a Whidden custom die) I’m not taking the fun out but people have been testing these things for a long time and have wisdom about what works and helps and what might not. You want fun and to test things - put the mandrel down and go get a tuner.
The suppressor already provides the proven benefits of a tuner, without the snake oil side of the adjustability.I've actually thought about a barrel tuner, but right now, everything has an ASR Brake and I shoot everything suppressed. I'll need to look into barrel-tuning with a suppressor in the mix. That said, I had hinky results years ago when I started using an expander ball, and have had none of those problems with mandrels ... so ... I'll probably leave that part of my process alone (for now).
The suppressor already provides the proven benefits of a tuner, without the snake oil side of the adjustability.