Rifle for home defense. What Caliber?

#101
Haney said:
Look at those big internet muscles . :ROFLMAO:
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Yawn….

I’m going to bed with my doors unlocked and windows open. The rest of this thread is debating rifle caliber choice and barrier penetration to defend against multiple home invaders.

They failed in the location, location, location part of home selection. If they want peaceful sleep, they need to rethink where they live, not SCAR 16 vs 17.
 
#102
Haney said:
Look at those big internet muscles . :ROFLMAO:
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I'm not sure that I agree with your comment. I can't speak for @Redmanss directly of course but the way I read his comment was more so as a societal deterioration type of remark rather than him "flexing his internet muscles". It's not like he said he sleeps well at night because he keeps a 44 magnum under his pillow rather what I read at least, was that the problem is the neighborhood you're living in (and truth be told I may be putting my own bias into that interpretation because I'm in a similar position and actively trying to move onto greener pastures) so there's that.

I will say that 2 generations ago, on my father's side, his parents/my grandparents lived in a small coal town in central Pennsylvania. Well it's small now but at the time it was a bit of a hub for coal mining and railroads. Of course the mining stopped being profitable using the methods the town the inhabitants were employed for and they industry went to strip mining instead.

Well the town essentially died a rather abrupt death and going back to visit my father's hometown is somewhat depressing anymore because you can see what used to be rather opulent houses in their heyday just left to rot.

Anywho, I went on a tangent/side path there- the point I was trying to get to was up until the 70's or 80's, my grandparents never even had a lock on their door, not that they didn't use it but it just wasn't a thing for that area. Before then- probably the most scandalous story that existed in that town was somebody hobbled down from the local bar 3 sheets to the wind and somehow found himself going down the coal shoot and ending up in somebody's basement and scaring the bejesus out of the home owner when somebody was stumbling up their basement steps trying to work the basement door.

Well somewhere between the 70's-80's, a murder occurred a town or so over and it was such a foreign event that my father's hometown panicked and everyone purchased and installed deadbolt locks for the first time...Not sure where I'm going with this story other than to give @Redmanss some credit for what I perceive he was getting at.

-LD
 
#104
Redmanss said:
Yawn….

I’m going to bed with my doors unlocked and windows open. The rest of this thread is debating rifle caliber choice and barrier penetration to defend against multiple home invaders.

They failed in the location, location, location part of home selection. If they want peaceful sleep, they need to rethink where they live, not SCAR 16 vs 17.
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"Investigators say the source of the conflagration was an errant cigarette not put out when the homeowner fell asleep.

Agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms have been called in to assist local authorities with their inspection of what’s left of the home, as there were secondary fires caused by what they think were more flammables. In other news, Tailor Swift comes out as...."
 
#105
LRRPF52 said:
"Investigators say the source of the conflagration was an errant cigarette not put out when the homeowner fell asleep.

Agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms have been called in to assist local authorities with their inspection of what’s left of the home, as there were secondary fires caused by what they think were more flammables. In other news, Tailor Swift comes out as...."
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I’m pretty boring. Anyone looking into me is bobbing for dicks trying to stay awake.

If they had any issues with me, they would have dug them up while investigating the dozen EPSQ and e-QIPs I’ve submitted over the years.
 
#108
BoilerUP said:
I'd think minimizing overpenetration would be a consideration in home defense...
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He's already got that nailed down.
1717095622964.png
 
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#109
Redmanss said:
I’m pretty boring. Anyone looking into me is bobbing for dicks trying to stay awake.

If they had any issues with me, they would have dug them up while investigating the dozen EPSQ and e-QIPs I’ve submitted over the years.
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Those were compromised by Hillary when she was SECSTATE and handed over to the Chicoms and Russians, so you’re probably good unless you like ordering Chinese take-out.
 
#110
LRRPF52 said:
Those were compromised by Hillary when she was SECSTATE and handed over to the Chicoms and Russians, so you’re probably good unless you like ordering Chinese take-out.
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The OPM breach happened in 2015, Kerry was SecState then. Same-Same though.

Chinese food is fucking disgusting too. It's like they cook the noodles under a Permian Basin gusher.
 
#111
Redmanss said:
The OPM breach happened in 2015, Kerry was SecState then. Same-Same though.

Chinese food is fucking disgusting too. It's like they cook the noodles under a Permian Basin gusher.
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Guess who sat on the board of Rosemont Seneca with Hunter Biden?

Chris Heinz, John Kerry’s stepson. Funny how they received a $3.5 million wire from Russian sex-trafficking billionaire Elena Baturina in Feb, 2014, wouldn’t you say.

Who’s brave enough to trust that OPM isn’t an open hack now?
 
#112
Trying to refocus the question…I guess I’m saying you’re now occasionally seeing home invaders wear body armor etc and work in groups. Home invasions are at least in my area very rare thankfully, so improvised LE stack type home invasions would hopefully be purely theoretical lol. I wouldn’t tailor my choice based on the number of Sheetrock layers behind the invader. Hopefully I’m able to recall the direction of my kids’ bedrooms. I’m just wondering if there’s any merit to considering something with more KE at very close ranges vs lower recoil (shootability) and higher round count of a 5.56.
 
#113
cast1 said:
Trying to refocus the question…I guess I’m saying you’re now occasionally seeing home invaders wear body armor etc and work in groups. Home invasions are at least in my area very rare thankfully, so improvised LE stack type home invasions would hopefully be purely theoretical lol. I wouldn’t tailor my choice based on the number of Sheetrock layers behind the invader. Hopefully I’m able to recall the direction of my kids’ bedrooms. I’m just wondering if there’s any merit to considering something with more KE at very close ranges vs lower recoil (shootability) and higher round count of a 5.56.
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i don't personally think so. If anything, that would be an incentive *for me* to ensure that I had a full 30 round mag and was mentally prepared to shoot as many times as needed until the threat went down. Lobbing a big heavy bullet and expecting it to take 'the bad guy' off his feet is 1911/.45 ideology from a decade plus ago (and I say that as a 1911 fan).

*****

Home invasions in my area are very rare, but property theft and break-ins are not. Usually it is more than one guy involved, and my guess is that since everyone out here carrys a gun in their vehicle - that they'll be armed too. Therefore, you can expect the likelihood of an exchange of fire to increase should you catch them.

A police response is 30 minutes away at an absolute minimum, and probably closer to 45-60. There are literally only two officers on duty in this county at any point in time.

I'm not worried about being invaded by hordes of meth heads, but I do think that planning for the worst case scenario (multiple home invaders) is better than preparing for a single meth head who is just trying to take my lawnmower or a few tools out of my shop...Something about 'better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war' comes to mind...and that applies to your choice of home defense firearm as well.

^ That is why I want bonded bullets in a very manageable rifle platform. *My situation* is far different from many. If I lived in a built up urban environment (especially a crowded apartment complex), I would definitely have a different setup.

Too many situations for a one-size-fits-all answer, but I can't think of one where I'd rather have a 450 Bushmaster (or equivalent) and 10 rounds over a 5.56 and 30.
 
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#115
cast1 said:
Trying to refocus the question…I guess I’m saying you’re now occasionally seeing home invaders wear body armor etc and work in groups. Home invasions are at least in my area very rare thankfully, so improvised LE stack type home invasions would hopefully be purely theoretical lol. I wouldn’t tailor my choice based on the number of Sheetrock layers behind the invader. Hopefully I’m able to recall the direction of my kids’ bedrooms. I’m just wondering if there’s any merit to considering something with more KE at very close ranges vs lower recoil (shootability) and higher round count of a 5.56.
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I don't mean this offensively at all. If you "hopefully" will be able to recall the direction of your kid's room......train more. Combat stress does weird shit. For example, some of the guys on the UBL raid didn't "see" the chopper down in the courtyard even though they moved right past it during the assault. And those are season tier 1 guys. So, pretty easy for anyone without that much training to get turned around in their own home. Which is another reason I prefer suppressed 300blk subs. Anything you can do to lesson any stimulus will help you prevent tunnel vision and exclusion.

Also, plans go to shit immediately. So, you never know if your family is going to stay where you want them to stay (and sometimes, they can't, depending on the situation).

But, as pointed out several times in the thread, there's really nothing out there that isn't going to blow through multiple walls. So your best course of action is to not miss.


As far as armor, it's fairly easy with training to become very proficient at upper thoracic and head shots with .556 and 300blk. And even if they are wearing armor, most aren't going to respond well when several rounds hit them in their plates. If you're somehow against a person/s that is trained well enough to take multiple .556 impacts to the plate and continue fighting proficiently, you're likely in for a bad day if its just you protecting your home.
 
#117
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
I have a suppressed 10.5" 300 blk with 220's in a 30rd mag. The people talking about a stack with body armor are being ridiculous. If you've ever seen what a trained stack in body armor can do, you'd know that the best thing you can do in that situation is negotiate a surrender. Wear the bracelets. You're going to die if you fight. If an entry team comes for you, they will have flash bangs for sure, and potentially a dozen other interesting ways to dominate the space. Throw down your gun and follow the instructions. Unless you are ready to go, then aim for the knees. Nobody is in the fight once their knees have been blown apart.
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What if it’s a HIT team trying to kill you instead? You heard the news lately?

Redmanss said:
Some of you need to worry less about what rifle you need for HD, and concern yourself more with why you live in a shit hole where you need a suppressed rifle with spare mags at the ready for home invasion defense.
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See above. You don’t have to be in a shithole for the alphabeti to come for you. Just ask Trump.
 
#123
Malum Prohibitum said:
I think he is describing a white collar professional in Arkansas
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No, he was referencing my post with Trump getting raided. But for that one, I don’t sell guns either.

I also set the cruise control to the speed limit and call in a dig ticket to plant a tree.

Just because I don’t wear a ghillie for a living anymore, doesn’t mean I don’t know how to maintain a low profile.
 
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#124
For home defense?
The 8.6 Blackout AR 10 built light and short with a 3 twist barrel....No muzzle device!

Tested....225 gr lead bullets explode in a wide twisting circle of copper and lead fragments, will not over penetrate but cover the whole hall top to bottom, and side to side.
One shot, cannot miss...as long as it's the correct general direction.
It will cover toes, testicles, tummy, teeth, and eyeballs in one shot. Plus their accomplices on either side, will be hit too.
And the blast will light up the darkness so you can see the assailants crumple in pain and agony.
So finish them with a large knife, or a muzzle contact blast to the head from your 8.6 Blackout, supersonic lead loads, guaranteed to to explode soon as they leave the confines of the barrel.
 
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#126
Malum Prohibitum said:
I think he is describing a white collar professional in Arkansas
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This! And there is more...
Redmanss said:
No, he was referencing my post with Trump getting raided. But for that one, I don’t sell guns either.

I also set the cruise control to the speed limit and call in a dig ticket to plant a tree.

Just because I don’t wear a ghillie for a living anymore, doesn’t mean I don’t know how to maintain a low profile.
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I was also referencing the white collar professional.
 
#127
For home defense, a lot of people go with the 5.56 because of its manageable recoil, availability, and effectiveness. But, depending on your situation, something like a .308 or even a .450 Bushmaster could be worth considering if you need more stopping power or if you're worried about penetration through walls. That said, I’ve always been a fan of versatility, and I once upgraded my lever action rifle with some great lever action rifle parts for a bit more punch, even for home defense. It’s not the typical choice, but it’s something to consider if you want something a little more unique and powerful.
 
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#128
MargarenTravcins said:
For home defense, a lot of people go with the 5.56 because of its manageable recoil, availability, and effectiveness. But, depending on your situation, something like a .308 or even a .450 Bushmaster could be worth considering if you need more stopping power or if you're worried about penetration through walls.
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Another good reason for 5.56 is not just ease of use, being semi-auto. It is also using 3 points of contact for stability. Off hand on the forearm guard, grip against the hand, butt against the shoulder. This is providing more points of contact to control. It makes even novices quite effective. Especially with almost non-existent recoil of most factory rounds.
 
#130
MargarenTravcins said:
For home defense, a lot of people go with the 5.56 because of its manageable recoil, availability, and effectiveness. But, depending on your situation, something like a .308 or even a .450 Bushmaster could be worth considering if you need more stopping power or if you're worried about penetration through walls.
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Two posts in 18 months, and this is what you break the ice with?

Guys who promote the .450BM as a home defense round need to take one to a CQB course and have to fire at least 15 rounds during every run. 😄

"If you're worried about penetrating through walls"...well don't worry about the .308 or .450BM then...because they're not going to let you down by making through a bunch of 'em.

Must be a bot account.
 
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#131
I believe an 18"bbl 12ga. is still the optimum HD gun.

Even if the intruder is kitted up with armor, you shoot someone in the upper torso with a load of #0 or #00 buck you're hitting arms, hands, throat, face, etc.

I'm not clearing a house with a rifle in a caliber I used to hunt deer or snipe varmints at long rang with. In fact, I'd rather have my 1911 then my AR.
 
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#132
A 9mm carbine that runs off the same mags as your pistol would be the best choice for home defense.

A 9mm picks up a couple hundred FPS in a 16” barrel and basically turns it into a semi auto 357 magnum, except with little recoil and muzzle blast.

No it’s not as effective as a 556 or 762 but you don’t have to be a Navy SEAL or Chuck Norris to shoot it accurately inside a house during an emergency.
 
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#133
There are a lot of good options. No 'one size fits all' either.

I'm still sticking with 55gr .223 bonded soft points. Doesn't penetrate windshields, steel, or heavy wood as well as some options...barely meets the bare and heavy clothing gel penetration requirements for handgun ammunition.

However I still have to worry about overpenetration until the kids are out of the house, and this drives my choice somewhat. I've engineered the house where there are multiple full bookcases and dressers, and furniture in the way...but nothing is perfect.

I also like controllable, fast splits, and more ammo on board. If I'm in an actual gunfight, then the police are only 40 minutes away at the earliest. So two mags of Speer Gold Dot 55gr .223 it is for me and my situation.

YMMV.
 
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#134
TexPatriot said:
I believe an 18"bbl 12ga. is still the optimum HD gun.

Even if the intruder is kitted up with armor, you shoot someone in the upper torso with a load of #0 or #00 buck you're hitting arms, hands, throat, face, etc.

I'm not clearing a house with a rifle in a caliber I used to hunt deer or snipe varmints at long rang with. In fact, I'd rather have my 1911 then my AR.
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Just for fun, I've patterned my 870 and my 1100. Both police style 18 inch barrels.
5 yards with 00 is about 3 inches and 10 yards is about 6 or 8. I've a small house, can't shoot much more then 30 or 40 ft inside.
 
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#135
TexPatriot said:
I believe an 18"bbl 12ga. is still the optimum HD gun.

Even if the intruder is kitted up with armor, you shoot someone in the upper torso with a load of #0 or #00 buck you're hitting arms, hands, throat, face, etc.

I'm not clearing a house with a rifle in a caliber I used to hunt deer or snipe varmints at long rang with. In fact, I'd rather have my 1911 then my AR.
Click to expand...


.450 Bushmaster indoors is the definition of masochism. Yikes... And those are not cheap either, and not every place has them in stock.

Like I have venerated time after time again, I will have to give almost ALL points to the 12 gauge shotgun for close range to midrange defensive situations.

In order of preference:

12 gauge OO buck

12 gauge slug

.45 LC lever carbine (currently my platform, Model 1865 Spencer)

.45 ACP/10mm Henry Homesteader if they ever come out with those chamberings.

9mm in the currently available Homesteader.
 
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#136
Downtown said:
Just for fun, I've patterned my 870 and my 1100. Both police style 18 inch barrels.
5 yards with 00 is about 3 inches and 10 yards is about 6 or 8. I've a small house, can't shoot much more then 30 or 40 ft inside.
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Many people have the Hollywood misconception a shotgun at short range is a scattergun that blows people backward with a 2' wide canister of lead. It's like when someone shoots a shorter bbl. shotgun for the first time, they hold it at the hip pointing it at the general direction of a target and plowing an 8" divot of ground up. And thats with all shot size.

You still have to aim a shotgun but it's still the most devasting weapon of gunfights.
 
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#137
TexPatriot said:
Many people have the Hollywood misconception a shotgun at short range is a scattergun that blows people backward with a 2' wide canister of lead. It's like when someone shoots a shorter bbl. shotgun for the first time, they hold it at the hip pointing it at the general direction of a target and plowing an 8" divot of ground up. And thats with all shot size.

You still have to aim a shotgun but it's still the most devasting weapon of gunfights.
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Personally, I love the misconception that the shorter a shotgun barrel, the deadlier it is when in reality it's the total opposite. Also, you don't aim a shotgun you point it. :sneaky:
 
#138
Maser said:
Personally, I love the misconception that the shorter a shotgun barrel, the deadlier it is when in reality it's the total opposite. Also, you don't aim a shotgun you point it. :sneaky:
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Yeah, I knew that would trigger some when I wrote it, but we're not talking about shooting high passing dove and duck here, we're talking about shooting people across a room or down a hallway, in which case you aim a shotgun.
 
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#139
cast1 said:
So is there a situation where you’d want to consider like a 308 or even a 458 socom/450 bushmaster or 50 Beowulf over a 5.56?
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If I wanted a rifle caliber, that was not 5.56x45 for home defense, it would likely be .458 SOCOM for the same reason they wanted it. With that said, if I can't use my AR carbine for home defense in 5.56x45, and I can choose any firearm I want, i'll take a reliable semi-auto 12ga like an 11-87, 1301, M4 etc. yeah yeah capacity and poor barrier penetration in some cases compared to 5.56x45 BUT, #4 buck, #4 3" Turkey and BB loads will devastate at close range.

ETA: My answer is for my house in my location.
 
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#140
TexPatriot said:
Yeah, I knew that would trigger some when I wrote it, but we're not talking about shooting high passing dove and duck here, we're talking about shooting people across a room or down a hallway, in which case you aim a shotgun.
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Yup, old trap shooting habits die hard. Anyways, my HD shotgun is pistol grip and has no sights or optics so pointing is my only option.
 
#141
I still have a suppressed 300BO pistol next to the bed. 9" barrel and a 6" can, short brace. It's handy, 220grn subs hit as hard as anything that's not going to leave the family deaf, while having 40 round mags cheap and readily available.

The spare mag is 110vmaxs for a little range if need be.


I have no illusion that I'll need more than a few shots in the very remote possibility that I'd ever need it in the first place.
But when did anyone ever complain about extra ammo after a gun fight?
 
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#142
Maser said:
Yup, old trap shooting habits die hard. Anyways, my HD shotgun is pistol grip and has no sights or optics so pointing is my only option.
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You aim at a fast flying dove and you're going to shoot behind it, everytime.

Conversly, many M4's come with front and rear sights for aiming as well as a rail for mounting a RD. I would have no problem with a HD shotgun not having sights, although a front bead would be nice. It's where pointing and aiming overlap.
 
#143
W 94 trapper .44 mag. 25 grs W296 Hornady 240gr HPXPT @1870 fps. !0 rounds. lever action never fails. Vest or not. They are going down!! Hits like a sledge hammer!
 
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#144
TexPatriot said:
You aim at a fast flying dove and you're going to shoot behind it, everytime.

Conversly, many M4's come with front and rear sights for aiming as well as a rail for mounting a RD. I would have no problem with a HD shotgun not having sights, although a front bead would be nice. It's where pointing and aiming overlap.
Click to expand...

I know you're meaning a Benelli M4, but thinking you meant the other type of M4 made me chuckle a bit to myself. 🤪
 
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