Send action for a Pre-fit

Baron23

Baron23

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    • Mar 19, 2020
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    #1
    Hi guys - I'm about to send a Bartlein M24, .264, 5R, 7.5 twist blank to a smith to be spun for a CDG action which is, of course, pre-fit qualified. This is my first pre-fit barrel.

    I asked the smith if he would "prefer" having the action and if that would result in a better product and didn't get a particularly strong reaction.

    The smith agreed that there two related issues, one small and one possibly larger.

    1. Timing the barrel so engraving shows. QUESTION: are pre-fit dwgs/specs sufficient to result in timed threads so that the engraving will show even if the action is not sent with the blank?

    2. Timing the barrel for any curvature (banana) in the bore. Yes, @Frank Green and company make absolute top of the line barrels...but, it is possible that they have a bit of curvature and would benefit from being times so that curve is aligned the vertical axis, right? QUESTION: Send the action with the barrel for this possibility or not?

    Right now I'm leaning on just sending the blank with a note that if the smith finds much in the way of a banana to let me know and I'll send the action. If not, then no worries about where the engraving ends up also.

    And yes, I have action wrench, torque wrench, barrel vise, go/n0 go gauges, and friends more expert than myself if needed.

    @Frank Green - you have been exceedingly kind to me in our past conversations so may I impose once again. What would you do?

    And yes, this is not an earth shattering issue but its raining cats and dogs out and I'm bored! haha

    Cheers
     
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    #2
    I have done it both ways and honestly don’t notice a difference. The prefits I have used without sending the actions are

    Falkor with proof and engraving lined up perfect.

    Tikka with PVA prefit and engraving was close but not perfect.

    Bighorn TL2 with PVA prefit and engraving was off a decent amount but still visible.

    ARC Archimedes prefit by fisher T&C and it lined up perfect.

    My other prefits have been TL3 prefits on origins so can’t expect them to line up. And a Falkor proof prefit on my lone peak Fuzion which doesn’t line up obviously.

    I haven’t noticed an accuracy difference between the prefits and the barrels I sent the actions in for. My latest barrel I sent in with the action so that my suppressor mount could be timed so I didnt have to use shims, and I wasn’t in a hurry to get it back so I figured why not pay the little extra for shipping.
     
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    #3
    Baron85 said:
    I have done it both ways and honestly don’t notice a difference. The prefits I have used without sending the actions are

    Falkor with proof and engraving lined up perfect.

    Tikka with PVA prefit and engraving was close but not perfect.

    Bighorn TL2 with PVA prefit and engraving was off a decent amount but still visible.

    ARC Archimedes prefit by fisher T&C and it lined up perfect.

    My other prefits have been TL3 prefits on origins so can’t expect them to line up. And a Falkor proof prefit on my lone peak Fuzion which doesn’t line up obviously.

    I haven’t noticed an accuracy difference between the prefits and the barrels I sent the actions in for. My latest barrel I sent in with the action so that my suppressor mount could be timed so I didnt have to use shims.
    Click to expand...
    From one Baron to another....thanks for the reply. And yeah...this ^^ is kind of what I expected and am thinking. Thanks
     
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    #6
    lash said:
    A smith worth his salt will not need the action if tolerances are 0.002”. Not if he knows how to calculate threads.
    Click to expand...
    Thanks for the reply and this smith is indeed recognized as very good and I know a number of people that have sent him blanks for pre-fits including on the CDG.

    Thanks
     
    #7
    Baron23 said:
    Thanks for the reply and this smith is indeed recognized as very good and I know a number of people that have sent him blanks for pre-fits including on the CDG.

    Thanks
    Click to expand...
    I think that’s why he was non-commital about his response. He probably wants you to be happy and some customers are less comfortable with pre-fits.
     
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    #8
    lash said:
    I think that’s why he was non-commital about his response. He probably wants you to be happy and some customers are less comfortable with pre-fits.
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, my impression of his response was sort of like "well, if you REALLY want to then these are the possible considerations". Thanks again for the reply. I believe I'm just going to ship him the blank on Monday.

    Cheers
     
    #11
    roostercogburn98 said:
    SPR goes around the barrel a few times with engraving so it shows up no matter how it clocks out.

    As @lash said, I’m not super concerned with that anyway. As long as it shoots, I’m happy.
    Click to expand...
    Thanks for the reply. As said, unless something dramatic comes up (highly doubtful), I'm going to just send the blank.

    Cheers Rooster (one of the very few remakes that I thought was an actual improvement lol)

    1714850899472.png
     
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    #12
    Baron23 said:
    Thanks for the reply. As said, unless something dramatic comes up (highly doubtful), I'm going to just send the blank.

    Cheers Rooster (one of the very few remakes that I thought was an actual improvement lol)

    View attachment 8410784
    Click to expand...
    I agree, the remake was actually good.

    Good luck with your new barrel, keep us posted with build deets if you get around to it!
     
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    #13
    roostercogburn98 said:
    I agree, the remake was actually good.

    Good luck with your new barrel, keep us posted with build deets if you get around to it!
    Click to expand...
    Going to be:

    - CDG action
    - Bartlein M24, .264, 5R, 7.5 twist
    - Chamber 6.5 Creedmoor with .150 free bore
    - Timney Rem 700 two-stage light because it just works well with the CDG. TT 2-stage Diamond works but seems have a bit more resistance to closing the bolt....my buddy has tried TT, Timney, and Huber in the CDG (Huber also works well) and I've had the chance to finger them all (ala' Borat..."there I was fingering me Julie! haha). I liked the Timney which was a surprise to me.
    - Vision chassis
    - U-7 suppressor using A419 uni adaper
    - ARC rings
    - Probably move my ZCO or 5HD to it

    Pretty sure that's it. :cool:

    Again, thanks for the reply and have a brilliant day. Cheers



    ​

     
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    #14
    Baron23 said:
    Hi guys - I'm about to send a Bartlein M24, .264, 5R, 7.5 twist blank to a smith to be spun for a CDG action which is, of course, pre-fit qualified. This is my first pre-fit barrel.

    I asked the smith if he would "prefer" having the action and if that would result in a better product and didn't get a particularly strong reaction.

    The smith agreed that there two related issues, one small and one possibly larger.

    1. Timing the barrel so engraving shows. QUESTION: are pre-fit dwgs/specs sufficient to result in timed threads so that the engraving will show even if the action is not sent with the blank?

    2. Timing the barrel for any curvature (banana) in the bore. Yes, @Frank Green and company make absolute top of the line barrels...but, it is possible that they have a bit of curvature and would benefit from being times so that curve is aligned the vertical axis, right? QUESTION: Send the action with the barrel for this possibility or not?

    Right now I'm leaning on just sending the blank with a note that if the smith finds much in the way of a banana to let me know and I'll send the action. If not, then no worries about where the engraving ends up also.

    And yes, I have action wrench, torque wrench, barrel vise, go/n0 go gauges, and friends more expert than myself if needed.

    @Frank Green - you have been exceedingly kind to me in our past conversations so may I impose once again. What would you do?

    And yes, this is not an earth shattering issue but its raining cats and dogs out and I'm bored! haha

    Cheers
    Click to expand...
    Your smith shouldn't need the action although I have heard of some saying it would work better.

    I have done lots of prefits for both of my AIs and have never had a problem.

    Timing to see the engraving seldom worked out for me but I could care less. Curvature in the bore? I have never even heard of that being an issue.
     
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    #15
    Nik H said:
    Your smith shouldn't need the action although I have heard of some saying it would work better.

    I have done lots of prefits for both of my AIs and have never had a problem.

    Timing to see the engraving seldom worked out for me but I could care less. Curvature in the bore? I have never even heard of that being an issue.
    Click to expand...
    Thanks Nik...the general consensus seems to be the same as how I'm going to go...blank only. But, its still hammering down rain here so good day for a meandering thread! haha

    Hope you and yours are well. Hope to see you in Oct if you still plan to come. I'll bring the scotch again! haha

    Cheers
     
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    #16
    If he charges the same to chamber and time everything as he does for just a plain prefit then why not send the action too and have him double check everything and time the engraving? Most charges slightly more to custom chamber vs pre fit
     
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    #18
    I should think any smith that's keeping the headspace to .002 on a prefit could also stamp their mark in the same spot. Barrel nut prefits I can see them doing the banded name tag around the barrel since the buyer sets the headspace.
     
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    #19
    Baron23 said:
    Hi guys - I'm about to send a Bartlein M24, .264, 5R, 7.5 twist blank to a smith to be spun for a CDG action which is, of course, pre-fit qualified. This is my first pre-fit barrel.

    I asked the smith if he would "prefer" having the action and if that would result in a better product and didn't get a particularly strong reaction.

    The smith agreed that there two related issues, one small and one possibly larger.

    1. Timing the barrel so engraving shows. QUESTION: are pre-fit dwgs/specs sufficient to result in timed threads so that the engraving will show even if the action is not sent with the blank?

    2. Timing the barrel for any curvature (banana) in the bore. Yes, @Frank Green and company make absolute top of the line barrels...but, it is possible that they have a bit of curvature and would benefit from being times so that curve is aligned the vertical axis, right? QUESTION: Send the action with the barrel for this possibility or not?

    Right now I'm leaning on just sending the blank with a note that if the smith finds much in the way of a banana to let me know and I'll send the action. If not, then no worries about where the engraving ends up also.

    And yes, I have action wrench, torque wrench, barrel vise, go/n0 go gauges, and friends more expert than myself if needed.

    @Frank Green - you have been exceedingly kind to me in our past conversations so may I impose once again. What would you do?

    And yes, this is not an earth shattering issue but its raining cats and dogs out and I'm bored! haha

    Cheers
    Click to expand...
    I/we are not a fan of prefits. Main reason is the actions vary tolerance wise along with the bolt. Even if you have a +/-.002” tolerance on the actions and bolts… you take the barrel the opposite way for headspace (even though it technically is in spec) and the action goes the other way.. I still see stuff having headspace or bolt clearance issues. Which can lead to function or accuracy issues.

    I don’t know of an action/receiver where the threads are timed off hand. So when you screw the barrel on and it’s pre engraved… you don’t know where the engraving is going to time up for you. We’ve done the engraving in two places opposite one another. So it could be upside down… it could be right side up… it could be on the stock line etc…

    I won’t name the action/gun maker as the point is not to bash on anyone but I actually tracked where one in ten fittings there was a fitment issue. When that happens…. All we can tell the customer is to send us everything so we can look at it and correct whatever is wrong. Everyone one of those the barrel was in spec. (I have the factory drawings for the barrel breech spec’s) and it was either the bolt affected headspace or it hit the barrel and wouldn’t close or the barrel didn’t fit the receiver properly. So we always ended up adjusting something.

    When we did barrels for the MSR rifles. They had a +/-.002” tolerance on headspace for example. We did the barrels to spec and had a master bolt and master barrel extension to double check the fit. If anything was off… then the factory had to make the adjustment on they’re end after the barrels where delivered.

    So in the end… I’ll say the bulk of the time you might not have an issue…. Just be prepared if you do have an issue.
     
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    #20
    LuvDog said:
    If he charges the same to chamber and time everything as he does for just a plain prefit then why not send the action too and have him double check everything and time the engraving? Most charges slightly more to custom chamber vs pre fit
    Click to expand...
    lash said:
    Fair point.
    Click to expand...
    He gets $50 more for custom...same service except you get the threads timed for engraving (and for if there is any significant curvature in the bore). For pre-fit, he does indeed examine the linearity of the bore as part of his standard service. I'm just going to tell him that if he finds a *significant" amount of curvature to let me know and I'll send him the action. Doubtful with a Bartlein heavy barrel but....maybe.

    As to why I don't just send it now....well, the barrel is still boxed up as it came from Bartlein so the easy way is to just slap a new shipping label on it. Yeah, I can box the action....its not a big deal. I just hate dealing with UPS on an firearms. The barrel...well, that's just a Bartlein M-24 steel pipe being shipped to a machinist for work.

    At least this is my muddled thinking at the moment.
     
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    #21
    Frank Green said:
    I/we are not a fan of prefits. Main reason is the actions vary tolerance wise along with the bolt. Even if you have a +/-.002” tolerance on the actions and bolts… you take the barrel the opposite way for headspace (even though it technically is in spec) and the action goes the other way.. I still see stuff having headspace or bolt clearance issues. Which can lead to function or accuracy issues.

    I don’t know of an action/receiver where the threads are timed off hand. So when you screw the barrel on and it’s pre engraved… you don’t know where the engraving is going to time up for you. We’ve done the engraving in two places opposite one another. So it could be upside down… it could be right side up… it could be on the stock line etc…

    I won’t name the action/gun maker as the point is not to bash on anyone but I actually tracked where one in ten fittings there was a fitment issue. When that happens…. All we can tell the customer is to send us everything so we can look at it and correct whatever is wrong. Everyone one of those the barrel was in spec. (I have the factory drawings for the barrel breech spec’s) and it was either the bolt affected headspace or it hit the barrel and wouldn’t close or the barrel didn’t fit the receiver properly. So we always ended up adjusting something.

    When we did barrels for the MSR rifles. They had a +/-.002” tolerance on headspace for example. We did the barrels to spec and had a master bolt and master barrel extension to double check the fit. If anything was off… then the factory had to make the adjustment on they’re end after the barrels where delivered.

    So in the end… I’ll say the bulk of the time you might not have an issue…. Just be prepared if you do have an issue.
    Click to expand...
    Hi Frank - thanks for the reply. You da' best.

    Now, I do put a great deal of credence into what others have replied with.

    But....tbh, IMO you are the man and have seen far more of these installations than perhaps anyone.

    To me, this is telling:

    Frank Green said:
    I actually tracked where one in ten fittings there was a fitment issue.
    Click to expand...
    I do not want to go thru having the barrel spun just to have to send it back to a smith to fix headspace issue.

    You have convinced me to hassle with UPS and ship the action too.

    I think one thing I need to keep in mind is that at 71 (with a couple of back surgeries under my belt), I'm not a competitor and don't go thru multiple barrels in a year or shoot long, hot strings of fire. A barrel lasts me a while.

    Thanks for the reply, Frank. Hope all is well with you and yours.

    Cheers
     
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    #23
    If you trust your smith then just swap labels and send the barrel off. You can ship the action if you want but will end up with the same product and pay more. I have a bunch of shouldered prefits and all fit and work great. Seems like you wanted to send the action all along and wanted someone to tell you to do it even though you got a ton of posts telling you it's not needed by people using shouldered prefits so just do what you wanted to from the beginning.
     
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    #24
    Rob01 said:
    Seems like you wanted to send the action all along and wanted someone to tell you to do it even though you got a ton of posts telling you it's not needed by people using shouldered prefits so just do what you wanted to from the beginning.
    Click to expand...
    Well, Rob...not actually. I was going to just send the barrel. But I put a LOT of credence in what Frank Green says.

    I'll sleep on it. Thanks for your input.
     
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    #25
    I don’t imagine that all actions have timed threads???? Unless each action has the threads start in the exact same spot you couldn’t time the engraving. Do most actions have timed threads?
     
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    #26
    Baron23 said:
    Well, Rob...not actually. I was going to just send the barrel. But I put a LOT of credence in what Frank Green says.

    I'll sleep on it. Thanks for your input.
    Click to expand...

    I put a lot of credence in Frank also but I have also used a bunch of prefits and know they work. Comes down to the smith and if you trust your smith well then trust him.

    Also shipping UPS for actions and barrels is a no go now unless you are an FFL. USPS is about it.
     
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    #27
    Baron85 said:
    I don’t imagine that all actions have timed threads???? Unless each action has the threads start in the exact same spot you couldn’t time the engraving. Do most actions have timed threads?
    Click to expand...

    I know the Zermatts do and the TL3s are different that the Origins. One is 12 o'clock and one is 6 o'clock. I used one of my TL3 prefits on my Origin with an HLR recoil lug and the engravings are on opposite sides but barrel shoots great.
     
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    #29
    I am in the process of doing all possible variations of the shouldered prefit all on 737Rs. My son’s rifle action is at the smith and he is fitting a barrel. My daughter’s action was bought and shipped from the smith and a shouldered prefit is due in 2 weeks. My rifle which was put together by another smith received a shouldered prefit which I installed. I asked the smith about expectations. The response was that the gain from him installing the barrel was in the last 2% of possible accuracy. Having seen the action he could engrave it., but the accuracy would be the same as the one I installed on an action he had never seen. I totally understand that and am pleased so far with what I have experienced.
     
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    #30
    oldrifleman said:
    I am in the process of doing all possible variations of the shouldered prefit all on 737Rs. My son’s rifle action is at the smith and he is fitting a barrel. My daughter’s action was bought and shipped from the smith and a shouldered prefit is due in 2 weeks. My rifle which was put together by another smith received a shouldered prefit which I installed. I asked the smith about expectations. The response was that the gain from him installing the barrel was in the last 2% of possible accuracy. Having seen the action he could engrave it., but the accuracy would be the same as the one I installed on an action he had never seen. I totally understand that and am pleased so far with what I have experienced.
    Click to expand...
    Great data points, thanks
     
    #31
    So with regards to whether to send an action in for a pre-fit or not, for those that have experience with the Solus action, what is the consensus with regards to consistency of threads from receiver to receiver?
     
    #32
    Fwiw I have done both and only had problems with a non prefit barrel. Stuff can get messed up both ways. Just something to keep in mind, stuff can get messed up both ways.

    I’d rather screw a barrel off and throw it in the trash before I send some smiths my rifle for an unknown amount of time again.
     
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    #33
    Rob01 said:
    I know the Zermatts do and the TL3s are different that the Origins. One is 12 o'clock and one is 6 o'clock. I used one of my TL3 prefits on my Origin with an HLR recoil lug and the engravings are on opposite sides but barrel shoots great.
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, a fair bit of actions are timed these days I thought. PVA prefits on my CDG and TL3 for sure; I know Origin is 180° opposite of TL3 as well. I’m pretty sure Defiance didn’t used to thread time but does now?
     
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    #35
    my bartleins don't have enough flop or whatever you call it for me to worry about timing the bore. I still let me smith have my actions so he can get the engraving lined up. it's an aesthetic thing.
    I don't even time my muzzle brakes anymore because I always shoot suppressed over the brake.
     
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    #36
    Well, I just sent the smith the blank and did not send the action. We (me and the smith) agreed that if the bore had any significant banana (very doubtful with Bartlein or other top drawer blanks) he would let me know and I could then send in the action.

    Talked to the smith and the blank had a nice clean and straight bore (no surprise there) so I didn't send the action and if the engraving doesn't line up I won't sweat it.

    The spun barrel is now out for delivery to me with UPS.

    Thanks guys.
     
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    #38
    AllenOne1 said:
    If you have a good smith, I don't think it hurts to give them a little free advertising by posting their name on the forum. We hammer them when they mess it up, so give them some love when they get it right.
    Click to expand...
    Cool.

    This one was done by Chase Fisher at Fisher T&C. I have a friend who has gotten beautiful barrels from Chase and I suspect this one will be the same. As I said, it should be here from UPS in an hour or so. I went with his .150" FB reamer for 6.5 CM versus the...I think its .199" FB in SAAMI standard. This should let me get a bit closer to the lands and stay in mag length.

    Not very long ago, I also had a barrel spun by Ern at Altus and it also was a beautiful job and I'm very happy with his work too and would not hesitate to send him work in the future.

    Aaaand, there is UPS with my barrel...c ya'. :D
     
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    #39
    Baron23 said:
    Cool.

    This one was done by Chase Fisher at Fisher T&C. I have a friend who has gotten beautiful barrels from Chase and I suspect this one will be the same. As I said, it should be here from UPS in an hour or so. I went with his .150" FB reamer for 6.5 CM versus the...I think its .199" FB in SAAMI standard. This should let me get a bit closer to the lands and stay in mag length.

    Not very long ago, I also had a barrel spun by Ern at Altus and it also was a beautiful job and I'm very happy with his work too and would not hesitate to send him work in the future.

    Aaaand, there is UPS with my barrel...c ya'. :D
    Click to expand...
    What was the turn time for Fisher on your pre-fit?
     
    #41
    @FisherT&C

    I just had a chance to unbox and examine the Bartlein blank I sent to Chase Fisher to be spun for this CDG prefit and I'm very happy with what I saw.

    Now, I'm no expert but everything looks very good. Nice clean and uniform threads, nice clean muzzle crown, very nice smooth chamber with nothing odd to be seen at the body/shoulder junction, very clean and shiny free bore, and the leade ends very uniformly at the free bore all the way around.

    Of course the proof is when I shoot it but the gunsmithing looks very nice.

    He did tell me that he doesn't usually cut off the coin (engraving from the blank manf), that he will do it but its a bit more work, but perhaps I misunderstood as the coin was indeed shipped back to me in the box with the barrel.

    Chase beat his estimated lead time by quite a bit...from him setting my expectations at 9 weeks then shipping at about 4 weeks. And his price is good and very competitive. All good and I wouldn't hesitate to send him more barrel work in the future.

    In addition, he provided a document with the specs on his work which I find to be very polite and transparent.

    But, I do have a couple of questions on the document shown below. I know I can call him on Mon, but I'd rather let him do barrels than answer perhaps dumb questions from me that one of you might clear up.

    1. He shows "Overall length of headspace: .8215" This is a 6.5 CM barrel and I don't understand what this dimension is trying to tell me. It sure isn't the length from the cartridge base to the datum line in the shoulder or anywhere close. What am I missing here?

    2. He shows torque as being 80 to...er, looks like maybe 90 ft/lbs and crush at torque of .002". Ted says to torque barrels on his CDG at 100-150 ft/lbs and my intention was to go at least 100 and was considering 125 ft/lbs. So, I'm guessing that this would result in a bit more thread crush and a very slight reduction in headspace...er, right? And yes, I'm probably way over thinking this but I found myself curious when looking over the specs below.

    Thanks and cheers

    1719024438999.jpeg







    @FisherT&C
     
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    #43
    spife7980 said:
    From the published tenon drawing that’s the headspace protrusion to the barrel shoulder, within half a thou
    View attachment 8443938
    Click to expand...
    Ok, but isn't "headspace" defined as the distance from cartridge case base to where the case impacts the chamber which is at the datum line of shoulder and which is 1.541 - 1.551?

    And yes, I see where this dimension comes from on the tenon drawing...just surprised that he calls it overall headspace?

    For my next act, we can debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. hahaha

    Thanks for the reply. Now I understand what this number is indicating.

    1719025913036.png
     
    #44
    CDG_HS.png
    .822 +/- .001 (.821-.823) is specific to the CDG action; not the cartridge. The dimension is the allowable tolerance from the base of the head space gauge to the shoulder of the barrel. The dimension allows clearance for the allowable tolerance from the receiver face to the bolt face when the breech is fully locked in firing position.

    Cartridge dimensions express allowable tolerances to manufacture chamber reamers and ammunition in order to allow clearance for the proper function and safety of firearms; they are not specific to a particular design of a firearm.

    Firearms have to either be designed to function with particular cartridges or cartridges must be designed to function with a particular design of firearms.
    Once in a while they are designed concurrently if an entity has the resources to do so.

    For posterity, Chase
     
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    #45
    FisherT&C said:
    View attachment 8444205
    .822 +/- .001 (.821-.823) is specific to the CDG action; not the cartridge. The dimension is the allowable tolerance from the base of the head space gauge to the shoulder of the barrel. The dimension allows clearance for the allowable tolerance from the receiver face to the bolt face when the breech is fully locked in firing position.

    Cartridge dimensions express allowable tolerances to manufacture chamber reamers and ammunition in order to allow clearance for the proper function and safety of firearms; they are not specific to a particular design of a firearm.

    Firearms have to either be designed to function with particular cartridges or cartridges must be designed to function with a particular design of firearms.
    Once in a while they are designed concurrently if an entity has the resources to do so.

    For posterity, Chase
    Click to expand...
    Thanks Chase...I got it when my friend @spife7980 pointed out the tenon drawing figures.

    As I noted above, I am very happy with the barrel you spun for me based on just visual inspection and I'm sure it will shoot wonderfully when I get this rifle put together.

    My interest in what that number meant on your spec sheet was just idle interest. I'm retired and do that a lot! haha

    Best of luck to you and yours.
     
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    #46
    Baron23 said:
    Thanks Chase...I got it when my friend @spife7980 pointed out the tenon drawing figures.

    As I noted above, I am very happy with the barrel you spun for me based on just visual inspection and I'm sure it will shoot wonderfully when I get this rifle put together.

    My interest in what that number meant on your spec sheet was just idle interest. I'm retired and do that a lot! haha

    Best of luck to you and yours.
    Click to expand...
    You need a hobby my friend
     
    • Haha
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