Any Glass Experts?

kthomas · Jun 19, 2024

I purchased a dual pane tempered glass window last year, and the outside pane shattered while we were out of town.

This is what it currently looks like:

Unfortunately the company I bought it from won't return my calls and emails, so looking at other companies for a window replacement. One company came by for a quote, and I asked them what they think caused the damage. In our discussion animals came up, and I told them about a small house finch that frequently taps on the window. They said that could be it.

Seriously? A 2 oz house finch can destroy a $6000 tempered glass window? Is there any truth to that, or am I getting bullshitted here?

E. Bryant · Jun 19, 2024

Our slider did the same thing this spring, and security camera footage didn't show anything obvious. We chalked this up to "shit happens".

mi650 · Jun 19, 2024

I spent a few years shipping glass to a Ford plant. Yea, auto glass, not for a house.

But once in a while 1 would just explode in someone's hands. Happened to everyone there, just a microscopic flaw in the glass. Can't see why the same thing couldn't happen to a window.

Makinchips208 · Jun 19, 2024

Bummer!
Almost looks like the cracks originate from the bottom left?

kthomas · Jun 19, 2024

Makinchips208 said:
Bummer!
Almost looks like the cracks originate from the bottom left?

Yeah, that seems to be the origin point.

kthomas · Jun 19, 2024

mi650 said:
I spent a few years shipping glass to a Ford plant. Yea, auto glass, not for a house.

But once in a while 1 would just explode in someone's hands. Happened to everyone there, just a microscopic flaw in the glass. Can't see why the same thing couldn't happen to a window.

Defects definitely happen.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here.

The big bummer is that the window is less then a year old, has a "lifetime warranty", but the company I bought it from went completely AWOL...

Jefe's Dope · Jun 19, 2024

Glass has interesting characteristics.

357Max · Jun 19, 2024

kthomas said:
Defects definitely happen.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here.

The big bummer is that the window is less then a year old, has a "lifetime warranty", but the company I bought it from went completely AWOL...

Look carefully for a stamp on the lower left or right corners for manufacturer.

The most common cause of this in Tempered glass is a Nickel Sulfide inclusion. Just like your wife's diamond ring there are small flaws in glass. The problem with tempered glass is that the whole damn thing is in tension. Tempered is most vulnerable at the edges. Those inclusions basically are jagged edges within the tensioned glass.

The phenomenon is called spontaneous breakage. When we use Tempered glass on commercial buildings it all gets heat soak tested. If there are any NS inclusions present, the glass explodes in the oven during testing.

Jefe's Dope · Jun 19, 2024

$6000 seems like a lot. I used to have retail stores and have had many break-ins over the years. I've replaced 8x4 windows for much less than that. They were all tempered as required by code. What's the size and why the $$$?

Threadcutter308 · Jun 19, 2024

I had a full height thermopane panel do exactly the same thing. We had a glass guy come out and I told him I had no idea of what could have caused it. He pointed right at the origin of the breakage, which was about waist high.

He said “I notice that your dresser is right next to the door. Do you get dressed right there ? Is it possible that you were putting on you pants and maybe your belt buckle lightly hit the glass ?”

I said “shit, you’re right, that was about two years ago. I had forgotten all about that”.

He said “it isn’t as uncommon as you would think”.

If you can, go with Milgard. They’ve replaced multiple 20 year old panels under (lifetime) warranty for me, no questions asked. I won’t buy anyone else’s windows.

Gemsbok · Jun 19, 2024

Threadcutter308 said:
He said “I notice that your dresser is right next to the door. Do you get dressed right there ? Is it possible that you were putting on your underpants and maybe the view made the glass crack like a mirror, or something like that?

He said “it isn’t as uncommon as you would think”.

FIFY … nothing personal, it’s just the bear pit.

357Max · Jun 19, 2024

I only deal with commercial glass & it is truly incredible what glass can be engineered to withstand.

2nd attempt with det cord. Did not get through.

SalomonQST99 · Jun 19, 2024

kthomas said:
I purchased a dual pane tempered glass window last year, and the outside pane shattered while we were out of town.

This is what it currently looks like:

View attachment 8442256

Unfortunately the company I bought it from won't return my calls and emails, so looking at other companies for a window replacement. One company came by for a quote, and I asked them what they think caused the damage. In our discussion animals came up, and I told them about a small house finch that frequently taps on the window. They said that could be it.

Seriously? A 2 oz house finch can destroy a $6000 tempered glass window? Is there any truth to that, or am I getting bullshitted here?

If this was within 12 months (mechanics lien), the guy that installed it might do something for you. Maybe not. I've take those things to a glass company and they get the glass made up for them including dual pane, nitrogen purging, etc.

kthomas · Jun 19, 2024

Jefe's Dope said:
$6000 seems like a lot. I used to have retail stores and have had many break-ins over the years. I've replaced 8x4 windows for much less than that. They were all tempered as required by code. What's the size and why the $$$?

Actually when I purchased the window last year it was ~$2k installed.

Now I'm getting quotes for $6k for same window this year

kthomas · Jun 19, 2024

SalomonQST99 said:
If this was within 12 months (mechanics lien), the guy that installed it might do something for you. Maybe not. I've take those things to a glass company and they get the glass made up for them including dual pane, nitrogen purging, etc.

Company that installed it went AWOL. Can't get ahold of them.

The window is supposed to have a lifetime warranty.

Engineer260 · Jun 19, 2024

Definitely originated bottom left. but highly doubt the bird was involved. Is there a hole at the spot the crack started? If not, it mostly likely started at the edge. Tempered glass is most vulnerable on the edge. If they didn’t shim it correctly or bumped it during install it could lead to this.

This video does a decent job explaining force on tempered glass

kthomas · Jun 19, 2024

Engineer260 said:
Definitely originated bottom left. but highly doubt the bird was involved. Is there a hole at the spot the crack started? If not, it mostly likely started at the edge. Tempered glass is most vulnerable on the edge. If they didn’t shim it correctly or bumped it during install it could lead to this.

This video does a decent job explaining force on tempered glass

No hole at the "origin" spot.

gopherslayer · Jun 19, 2024

Having worked for the big red bird when I was really young I can tell you that tempered glass does some weird stuff. They will just let loose and shatter. Stacks of patio doors would have one that would shatter in the stack. There was a flaw somewhere in the pane. You could hear it as they sat in the warehouse.

Sometimes there will be a seed along the ground edge and over time it will shatter. The ground edge of the pane may have been sharp and pointed and after install some shifting occurred and put stress on the edge causing it to shatter. It doesn’t take much to make them shatter some days and others you can beat the edge with a hammer and it will take a couple of strikes to do it.

Dawhit · Jun 19, 2024

It wasn’t a finch!
It is amazing how hard you can hit tempered glass and not break it away from the edge sometimes with a hammer. A spring loaded window punch like fireman use, and we used to test glass samples going out for certification or our daily logs testing, will break it easily. A slight tap on the edge will do the same.

As others have said, tempered glass is under a lot of pressure. You would come in the next day and find lites that exploded in the rack over night from some small flaw.

Probably a flaw in the glass or it might have been resting against metal in the frame if not properly shimmed with setting blocks and the expansion and contraction from heating up and cooling popped it, the edges are the weak link with tempered glass.

Cody S · Jun 19, 2024

kthomas said:
I purchased a dual pane tempered glass window last year, and the outside pane shattered while we were out of town.

This is what it currently looks like:

View attachment 8442256

Unfortunately the company I bought it from won't return my calls and emails, so looking at other companies for a window replacement. One company came by for a quote, and I asked them what they think caused the damage. In our discussion animals came up, and I told them about a small house finch that frequently taps on the window. They said that could be it.

Seriously? A 2 oz house finch can destroy a $6000 tempered glass window? Is there any truth to that, or am I getting bullshitted here?

honestly bud, when I installed tempered glass, sometimes just the hot sun would do it and it would shatter into a million pieces.
one time carrying a 50 pound ish piece of glass, I had a wedding ring on my hand made of gold. well that gold ring touched the edge as I was carrying it so a little bit of weight on it, shattered right in my hands.
tempered glass is funny shit.
you beat on the front of it though? tough as nails. we would try and bust old pieces sitting around with a hammer...
anyways, I have no idea the policy on replacements where it was so new but I'd assume if it didn't break the day they installed it, they won't cover it.
best of luck man, hope it doesn't happen again.
if that fuckin finch or whatever was pecking on the edge or corner... maybe...
anywhere not directly on an edge, like say just the middle of the front, no fucking way, bet a thousand dollars on it.
if a glazier left exposed edges on tempered glass after installing it he should be shot.

Cody S · Jun 19, 2024

honestly dude if you have some specific questions you can pm me or post here and I can ask my dad who I worked under. my dad is a glass expert, been doing this shit for 30 years. he is the best around here, and be considered damn good anywhere he would go.
2k seems about right for that job, shouldn't take more than an hour actual labor (30 mins for 2 skilled laborers), then drive time, profit percentages usually about 60-100% on glass because we break so much tempered installing the shit.(usually once installed you're g2g)
my dad could give you an actual estimate (he cant do it unless youre in SE kentucky) if you're interested so you don't overpay I just need to know exactly what you'd like and if it would be a particularly difficult looking install.
no fucking way a belt buckle tapping the front of your tempered window did any damage. you guys may have no idea how tough tempered is (it's funny strong)

LeftyJason · Jun 19, 2024

Jefe's Dope said:
Glass has interesting characteristics.

Ok vid but smarter every day (the origin of the bullets vs prince Rupert) is better.

Playlist.

Even captured exploding one in epoxy and molten glass.

ma smith · Jun 19, 2024

Emerson0311 · Jun 19, 2024

We had a sliding glass door do that. Though it was a pellet gun from kids or a cranky neighbor. It was a shitty time to spend the $$ to replace.

kthomas · Jun 20, 2024

Cody S said:
honestly bud, when I installed tempered glass, sometimes just the hot sun would do it and it would shatter into a million pieces.
one time carrying a 50 pound ish piece of glass, I had a wedding ring on my hand made of gold. well that gold ring touched the edge as I was carrying it so a little bit of weight on it, shattered right in my hands.
tempered glass is funny shit.
you beat on the front of it though? tough as nails. we would try and bust old pieces sitting around with a hammer...
anyways, I have no idea the policy on replacements where it was so new but I'd assume if it didn't break the day they installed it, they won't cover it.
best of luck man, hope it doesn't happen again.
if that fuckin finch or whatever was pecking on the edge or corner... maybe...
anywhere not directly on an edge, like say just the middle of the front, no fucking way, bet a thousand dollars on it.
if a glazier left exposed edges on tempered glass after installing it he should be shot.

I'm starting to learn how fickle tempered glass is. It's pretty interesting.

The day it likely shattered was a day it was well into the 100's for temp. I checked the records on my weather machine, and the temperature was around 109° F when the glass broke. I think that had something to do with it.

Maybe a defect in the glass, some induced stress due to incorrect installation, or something else that was exacerbated by the high heat.

Here are the quotes so far:

- Company A: $5500+ tax for window replacement. Low-E dual pane tempered
- Company B: $3800 to replace the two panes and re-use the frame. Low-E dual plane tempered
- Company C: $8400 for 3 new windows (this arched window is one of three, the others are the original single pane non-tempered glass that's ~50 years old). This is with low-E Milgard glass

camotoe · Jun 21, 2024

I bet it was that Ukrainian sniper you were calling bullshit on his record shot,

I saw him do it from 3 miles away with pellet rifle and only 3 pumps....

sirhrmechanic · Jun 21, 2024

vinniedelpino · Jun 21, 2024

kthomas said:
I'm starting to learn how fickle tempered glass is. It's pretty interesting.

The day it likely shattered was a day it was well into the 100's for temp. I checked the records on my weather machine, and the temperature was around 109° F when the glass broke. I think that had something to do with it.

Maybe a defect in the glass, some induced stress due to incorrect installation, or something else that was exacerbated by the high heat.

Here are the quotes so far:

- Company A: $5500+ tax for window replacement. Low-E dual pane tempered
- Company B: $3800 to replace the two panes and re-use the frame. Low-E dual plane tempered
- Company C: $8400 for 3 new windows (this arched window is one of three, the others are the original single pane non-tempered glass that's ~50 years old). This is with low-E Milgard glass

$6k to replace a window that size is insane.

Does it have to be tempered? Around here it only has to be tempered if it’s less than 18? Inches from the floor.

kthomas · Jun 21, 2024

vinniedelpino said:
$6k to replace a window that size is insane.

Does it have to be tempered? Around here it only has to be tempered if it’s less than 18? Inches from the floor.

It does because it sits about 4" off the ground.

The window is approximately 60" wide, and 87.5" from bottom to the top of the arch. The vertical "legs" (as one company called it) is approximately 60".

Big Phish · Jun 21, 2024

Stress from home expansion joints could cause that being from unqualified installation making them too tight. In other word when it warms up home will expand and if a door or window is installed too tight they give and crack.

Big Phish · Jun 21, 2024

vinniedelpino said:
$6k to replace a window that size is insane.

Does it have to be tempered? Around here it only has to be tempered if it’s less than 18? Inches from the floor.

That is cheap for 6k as they are going for much more around here in my area for a custom window (10-15K)and yes they needs to be tempered. A simple fact is a rock thrown from a mower could shatter window if it weren't.
Insurance may cover the damaged if your policy has such coverage so might want to check into that.

kthomas · Jun 21, 2024

Big Phish said:
That is cheap for 6k as they are going for much more around here in my area for a custom window (10-15K)and yes they needs to be tempered. A simple fact is a rock thrown from a mower could shatter window if it weren't.
Insurance may cover the damaged if your policy has such coverage so might want to check into that.

I would go the insurance route if I didn't already have two claims on this house in the past ~2 years.

One of those claims was actually the window that this shattered window replaced. Unfortunately for me, my original insurance company that handled that claim dropped me, along with many others, as they are getting out Arizona.

I can reach out to my new insurance company, but I'm assuming that would require opening up a new claim, which would be claim #3 in my house in 2 years.

357Max · Jun 21, 2024

kthomas said:
I would go the insurance route if I didn't already have two claims on this house in the past ~2 years.

One of those claims was actually the window that this shattered window replaced. Unfortunately for me, my original insurance company that handled that claim dropped me, along with many others, as they are getting out Arizona.

I can reach out to my new insurance company, but I'm assuming that would require opening up a new claim, which would be claim #3 in my house in 2 years.

2 other options for you.
1. Laminated meets code for safety glazing. Might be cheaper.
2. Likely the cheapest route would be to replace the pane with annealed and then have them install a safety film (think window tint). you could have them film your other 2 windows with the same film so they all match. Lots of tint options available.

Rthur · Jun 21, 2024

Put this in the bottom left and tell folks it's custom...

R

vinniedelpino · Jun 21, 2024

kthomas said:
It does because it sits about 4" off the ground.

The window is approximately 60" wide, and 87.5" from bottom to the top of the arch. The vertical "legs" (as one company called it) is approximately 60".

That’s a good sized window. I thought it was smaller based on the pic.

I did semi custom windows too and it’s been one of my biggest regrets. I didn’t factor in custom doors, custom window treatments and repairs that come with it.

If you figure out a better option than those listed give us a heads up.

Threadcutter308 · Jun 21, 2024

kthomas said:
It does because it sits about 4" off the ground.

The window is approximately 60" wide, and 87.5" from bottom to the top of the arch. The vertical "legs" (as one company called it) is approximately 60".

I didn’t look real closely, but is it possible/desireable to remove the existing windows, reframe and replace with rectangular windows?

It seems to me that the excessive expense comes from the present windows being irregularly shaped and not so much the tempering of the glass.

W54/XM-388 · Jun 21, 2024

kthomas said:
I purchased a dual pane tempered glass window last year, and the outside pane shattered while we were out of town.

This is what it currently looks like:

View attachment 8442256

Unfortunately the company I bought it from won't return my calls and emails, so looking at other companies for a window replacement. One company came by for a quote, and I asked them what they think caused the damage. In our discussion animals came up, and I told them about a small house finch that frequently taps on the window. They said that could be it.

Seriously? A 2 oz house finch can destroy a $6000 tempered glass window? Is there any truth to that, or am I getting bullshitted here?

Cheap Chinese tempered glass is prone to going boom in the middle of the night with nothing happening at all.
A small flaw in the glass and repeated heating and cooling and one day in the middle of the night boom all by itself.

Happened to me.

Engineer260 · Jun 21, 2024

W54/XM-388 said:
Cheap Chinese tempered glass is prone to going boom in the middle of the night with nothing happening at all.
A small flaw in the glass and repeated heating and cooling and one day in the middle of the night boom all by itself.

Happened to me.

I’ve been out of the glass business for 15 years but this is all USA made, even the plate glass. Template would be sketched and sent to the tempering company. They would custom cut two pieces of glass, typically by robot, then temper them before installing them on the frame and making the unit. Turn around used to be 6-10 weeks in the Midwest.

The company you order from could also cut these and send them off to be tempered and made into the unit.

I agree with @Threadcutter308 that reframing that window into a rectangle might be cost effective even with a new aluminum frame.

xciapup · Jun 21, 2024

kthomas said:
I purchased a dual pane tempered glass window last year, and the outside pane shattered while we were out of town.

This is what it currently looks like:

View attachment 8442256

Unfortunately the company I bought it from won't return my calls and emails, so looking at other companies for a window replacement. One company came by for a quote, and I asked them what they think caused the damage. In our discussion animals came up, and I told them about a small house finch that frequently taps on the window. They said that could be it.

Seriously? A 2 oz house finch can destroy a $6000 tempered glass window? Is there any truth to that, or am I getting bullshitted here?

I kinda like it like that. It has sorta art feel to it. Consider keeping it?

ma smith · Jun 21, 2024

xciapup said:
I kinda like it like that. It has sorta art feel to it. Consider keeping it?

...maybe just laminate it in place LOL

Now... if you did that, would it hold its r-value and what not? or is it comlpletely wreck with at first crack?

packratt · Jun 22, 2024

Could always split into windows.

Rectangle with arch on top.

chevy_man · Jun 22, 2024

ma smith said:
...maybe just laminate it in place LOL

Now... if you did that, would it hold its r-value and what not? or is it comlpletely wreck with at first crack?

R value comes from the gas between the layers. Think it's safe to say the argon is gone now.

texastonk · Jun 22, 2024

Next time buy SHOT or LOW glass not the Chinese Tempura or whatever…

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