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Where's the node ?
- Thread starter Az4z3L
- Start date
It's much easier to see when the series of shots are all along a linier line. Given what we're looking at here, I'd test some loads between 41.6 and 42.0 to see.
40.9 is what I would verify with a larger sample size at distance
Nodewhere is where it is. A figment of your imagination, a statistical artifact
This. 41.6 there abouts in thinner brass, like hornady. Around 40.6 in thicker brass like Lapua. Your POI looks quite stable across all charge weights. What's your barrel contour?
re run the whole test and see what you print on paper. then compare the two and you will find that its a huge waste of time.
For max troll points, shoot groups with a box of factory match ammo and post it for people to interpret 
. All joking aside, I still shoot charge weight groups but mostly to verify everything is satisfactory after finding max. I like to have a good amount of data points around where I want to run it.
. All joking aside, I still shoot charge weight groups but mostly to verify everything is satisfactory after finding max. I like to have a good amount of data points around where I want to run it.
There's no such thing as a "node", there is such a thing as a Rorschach test and guys driving back and forth to the range burning up all their components until they think they see what they wanna see.
The ideas that all charge weights shoot the same is provabley false. The idea that all charges shoot to the same POI is proveably false. What some people are referring to as a node is an area where a small change in powder weight doesnt change POI.
Interesting, isn't it, how a tuner can change the POI using the same powder charge?
I’m going to postulate that the truck axles used on competition rifles exhibit muted harmonics compared to lighter weight barrels. As such, they may be more forgiving over a wider range of charge weights.
“Load to the node” and “dump enough powder to achieve acceptable speed” can both be true…
“Load to the node” and “dump enough powder to achieve acceptable speed” can both be true…
6 creeds, 6 brs, gay tigers, and dashers are also generally easy to load for and shoot. My creed is a #5 and shoots basically anything with h4350.
People get off in the weeds. It's just like the chronoladder misunderstanding of a few years ago. People hear something maybe they don't fully understand. They miss context of what they hear. Then, theyre off to preach what they learned.
People get off in the weeds. It's just like the chronoladder misunderstanding of a few years ago. People hear something maybe they don't fully understand. They miss context of what they hear. Then, theyre off to preach what they learned.
I can only speak for myself, but I’m not misunderstanding or missing anything.
Guys who believe in “nodes”, believe tuners actually do anything (they don’t), and who still shoot ladders for any reason besides seeing what speed a given charge yields, are just refusing to accept the truth: it’s all BS and their sample-size is too small to prove shit.
Speed affects trajectory (which can have an effect on POI), that’s all it is.
Guys who believe in “nodes”, believe tuners actually do anything (they don’t), and who still shoot ladders for any reason besides seeing what speed a given charge yields, are just refusing to accept the truth: it’s all BS and their sample-size is too small to prove shit.
Speed affects trajectory (which can have an effect on POI), that’s all it is.
Then how do you explain this?
Same load and virtually identical velocities, only changes in tuner setting (and it's repeatable):
You're gonna have to expand on that one for me. "Speed effects trajectory which can effect POI." I.E. How does speed effect trajectory and how does that effect POI.
Don't waste band width. Explain it. So far we have.
Speed effects trajectory which effects POI. What effects you trajectory at 100y? Ummm... Where the barrel is pointing....
Which is the reason some of us shoot OCW, to find a range of charges with the most similar trajectory. I.E. the barrel pointing in the same place when the bullet exits. I.E a node.
Look, the problem here is that whenever any kind of shit like this pops up around here, inevitably a handful of true believers come out with knives and torches and line up to yell some form of: you don't know shit/I've been doing this longer than you've been peeing standing up/that's the way I've always done it/look at my less than statistically useful number of pieces of cardboard with holes in it/etc..........
Except, those guys are the ones that don't know shit, because they believe they already have it figured out and can no longer learn. So who gives a shit that none of what they cite as proof is statistically relevant? It's a Rorschach test, and they will see what they wanna see, period. And, for some reason, they need other people to believe too... So they keep preaching their BS on forums like this over and over so the myth never dies and they can recruit morecult-members shooters to agree with them.
Well-thought-out brass prep and dropping every charge to the kernel is really all it takes. There's no magic load, if you can make every round come out the same as the next and it doesn't shoot, you're the problem.
Except, those guys are the ones that don't know shit, because they believe they already have it figured out and can no longer learn. So who gives a shit that none of what they cite as proof is statistically relevant? It's a Rorschach test, and they will see what they wanna see, period. And, for some reason, they need other people to believe too... So they keep preaching their BS on forums like this over and over so the myth never dies and they can recruit more
Well-thought-out brass prep and dropping every charge to the kernel is really all it takes. There's no magic load, if you can make every round come out the same as the next and it doesn't shoot, you're the problem.
If only this had been battled 100 times before!
Wrong. It's parallax, but instead of blaming the scope or the rifle system, we can just assume it was you.
Look, I surrender, I'm going to load up 5 rounds each, a tenth of a grain apart, send some money to Erik Cortina, then settle this forever.
It would be interesting to see the following done:
Step 1. Shoot 15 groups with the tuner in one static position. [Control Group]
Step 2. Shoot 15 groups, each group at a different tuner position (like what you have posted here) [Variable testing]
Step 3. Repeat Step #2. [Variable testing repeated]
And then compare the control group to the groups in which the variable is introduced. The control group should establish a baseline for much POI changes without changing a tuner. Step 2 and Step 3, when compared to the control group, would show how much the tuner settings affect POI, and if those POI changes are repeatable.
Your post is pure projection. Just a short time ago you were telling us the amp was the magic sauce that shrinks groups. Now youre the resident statistics expert crucified.
So, you can't explain what you meant then by "velocity effects trajectory and that effects POI"? And you go on the attack with some straw man bullshit.
Not sure why you are bringing up Cortina but ummm......
"For example, let’s say test loads of 29.8 grains, 30.1 grains and 30.4 grains of a particular powder land at nearly the exact same point of impact when firing ladder tests at 500 yards (see graphic at left). That powder charge range will presumably be the optimal load range on which you concentrate in developing your load."
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So people are just throwing powder charges til we hit the speed we want and run with it? Is that what the other side of the argument is saying?
That would be nice if anyone want to shoot that many rounds out of a gun that shoots in the .1's.
There are many different examples that have shown the same sine wave pattern (e.g. https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/tuner-test-results-confusing.4085273/page-4#post-38561382; https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/tuner-test-results-confusing.4085273/page-5#post-38563333). If one isn't able to shoot such small groups where the pattern is easy to see, it can be a little difficult to see it. . . unless one uses software like OnTarget to get the Mean Radius of the groups and see those centers and how they relate.
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That would be nice if anyone want to shoot that many rounds out of a gun that shoots in the .1's.
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You can't draw the conclusions you and others are drawing without shooting more.
Testing with such limited sample sizes are incredibly limited in which conclusions can be drawn. There's no way around that, except to shoot more.
I understand this statistical issue you're talking about. It's particularly true when trying to determine how much or how little dispersion one can depend on.
I can tell you for sure, it doesn't take much to see how a tuner can move the POI. Just a few weeks ago I was shooting my favorite .308 loads that I usually get around .4" (some a little higher, some lower). This was a hot morning and my POI was not where it usually is. I decided to change my tuner setting by a couple increments. The first shot POI with that setting went way high and left. I looked over to my shooting buddy and shrugged my shoulders thinking I just somehow pulled a bad shot. Focusing on my best mechanics, the next two shot went right up where that first one went. I was so surprised that particular tuner adjustment moved the shot so far. So, I moved the tuner setting back to where it was, and voila, POI went right back to where it was.
Seeing my POI move with my tuner adjustments when I'm working up a load is easy to see. . . all the time. It's just like those pics I posted above.
I'm not so much in disagreement about tuners changing POI.
However, I do find the hypothesis of using positive compensation to increase precision to be highly dubious and undertested.
I've tried the Positive Compensation Method and couldn't see or determine anything useful. . . but I only did it at 100 yds. I have to try it 300 yds or more when I can find a day when the atmospherics are suitable. Maybe at distance, it'll be easier to see what's going on.
That's how I do it these days .. tweak seating depth a bit maybe
I heard Bryan Litz say on a podcast that he does pretty much that. Find max, back off a bit, maybe seating depth, but mostly focusing on consistency of reloading. I did it on my 300nm and it works great.
Hornady same thing.
There's an interesting trend amongst companies that do extensive testing on ballistics. You'll typically find that they don't search for "nodes".
Not many shooters will really benefit in going after "nodes" due to the typical shooting that's done. Companies build for and market to the masses.
Not many shooters will really benefit in going after "nodes" due to the typical shooting that's done. Companies build for and market to the masses.
"Nodes" don't exist in testing with proper sample sizes.
Me personally I do a ladder test to just basically find the velocity I’m looking for. But I do seating depth test at 500yds and go with whichever one gives me the best groups along with good SD’s. Right or wrong it’s worked for me 
Me personally I do a ladder test to just basically find the velocity I’m looking for. But I do seating depth test at 500yds and go with whichever one gives me the best groups along with good SD’s. Right or wrong it’s worked for me
If it works, it works.
We typically make great ammo despite our process, not so much because of it.
Any chance that test represents a little over 1 full revolution of the tuner? Like there are 10-12 settings per rev?
edited after a closer look.
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You still squawking Mr velocity effects trajectory and that can effect POI? How many shots do you use to zero your rifle? How many shots do you need to determine your rifle is not zeroed? How many shots you think you need to see s POI shift....
How many shots do you use to zero your rifle? How many shots do you need to determine your rifle is not zeroed? How many shots you think you need to see s POI shift....
It has more like 0-30 "settings". . . though there's not a stop at each setting, so it can be set in-between numbers if one chooses. And it's not a full revolution.
Yes, velocity affects trajectory (ask Siri). IDK what’s so funny?You still squawking Mr velocity effects trajectory and that can effect POI?
And it usually takes me 1 round to zero my rifle, any more beyond that is to confirm zero.
Because the POI shifts at 100y are bigger than the velocity swings could cause. And because you never answered how that explanation could cause a POI shift at 100 yards. You just threw a fit and stapled yourself to a cross.
