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Lets see your USMC M40-M40A6!!!
- Thread starter callsignninja
- Start date
I know that you and others here know what these scopes are, I just wanted to get the basic information about these scopes out there. My post wasn't a criticism of your post or anything, sorry if that's how it came across. People should know that there's nothing special about these scopes. I've been asked by numerous people over the past year or so about the authenticity of these scopes, and I was thinking about doing a post about them. Any time these scopes are mentioned, we should remind people about what they actually are. The scopes are fine for clone builds, but hopefully no one is buying them with the assumption that they're real pieces of USMC history.
No offense taken at all man! This is why this community is great. Looking forward to your post about these eurooptic scopes. I believe there are a lot people interested in them.
Oh yeah i was just curious how rare they are to find. I didn’t figure it was genuine. I don’t need it to be. Just like my m110 is gonna wear a 5-25 mk5 cause i found a picture of one (finally) and a mgl110 cause the KAC can is just not viable for me at this moment. Hell I’m still debating on how to do the upper cause of URX woes. Or my XM3 running M5 with a Mil/Mil NXS. I just need it to look the part accurately but don’t need it to be 100% authentic. Which may be blasphemous to some cloners.
I’m like the guy who’s in between. I don’t have the funds to really go all out the moment. I just need it to look the part accurately but don’t need it to be 100% authentic. Which may be blasphemous to some cloners. Maybe one day i can remedy that.
Back to the eurooptic PMII is the ole 3-12 that rare now a days that i need to put aside some things to grab it for fear of it being non existent in 3 years when I actually have income?
I’m like the guy who’s in between. I don’t have the funds to really go all out the moment. I just need it to look the part accurately but don’t need it to be 100% authentic. Which may be blasphemous to some cloners. Maybe one day i can remedy that.
Back to the eurooptic PMII is the ole 3-12 that rare now a days that i need to put aside some things to grab it for fear of it being non existent in 3 years when I actually have income?
Don't worry about these EuroOptic scopes being around in 3 years. Even if they're not around, you can always find a used S&B 3-12x scope somewhere (this forum's PX, ebay, gunbroker, etc.). Even though an older used civilian scope won't have the "USMC M8541" markings, the older scope will be more accurate for your clone build. And if you really wanted the markings on the scope, you can always have someone mark an old scope for you. The S&B scopes aren't laser engraved, their machine engraved, so if you find someone to do this service it will look perfect. There's other things wrong with the EuroOptic scopes, but I'll have to save that stuff for a detailed thread. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't buy the EuroOptic scope, I'd pick up an older correct civilian scope and then have it engraved with the correct information. You'll probably also save money by acquiring a used scope as well. Just something to consider.
Not my photo, it was posted by Badger Ordnance on the Book of Faces, but I can’t help but share:
That scope is the real deal other than NSN. Premier Reticles engraved is even more rare. I have an MTC with Premier Reticles engraved as well. Both scopes would also be correct for the USMC MK11 Mod 1
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I would stop listening to those several collectors.
Not only do you have a rare scope (looks like a contract overrun scope put together by Premier Reticles for the USMC SSDS program, based on the side Premier Reticles and properly lined up USMC M8541 markings), but that is arguably a more rare M118LR BDC turret for the original contract S&B scopes for the M40A3. The original contract scopes had the windowed double turn turrets common on most earlier S&B PMIIs, like the 5-25x56mm, but with the M118LR BDC. Only later did the MTC elevation turret become standard on the SSDS.
You have a prize scope there!
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The DT is correct and you’ve got a rare scope.
I’m hunting a schneider barrel for an A3 project if you have a spare in the stash
Always a good day when you can call a project complete. Finally got all the items for the M40A6 SL-3 kit put together. 8541A glass, OG bushnell tactical tripod with E-203 rail adapter, 8541A ARD, Gen 2 Fa762ss and the rare black eagle scope and crown cover to name a few items.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that DT elevation knob is technically incorrect with that ocular housing. The reason is simple, the DT turret was used for less that 2 years, so it was only used on the very first contract scopes. The earliest contract scopes had the NSN on the top of the ocular housing. The scopes went into service sometime in 2006, and the DT elevation turret mechanisms were replaced with the MTC elevation turret mechanism starting in 2007 and into early 2008. The NSN M8541 scopes were all part of the first shipment when Premier Reticle got the USMC SSDS contract. The scope you have will have a higher serial number and the ocular housing doesn't have the NSN, which means that it was part of the last batch of scopes that Premier Reticle assembled right before they closed shop. The Corps was already sending scope in for the DT to MTC turret mechanism swap by the time that they assembled your scope, so it wouldn't make sense for them to put on a DT turret mechanism, just to have the mechanism immediately replaced by an turret MTC mechanism. The DT mechanism and MTC mechanism are completely different, so it's a full swap, not just moving the elevation turret caps around.
It is possible for your scope to have come from Premier Reticle with the DT turret mechanism and BDC turret cap if your scope was one of the civilian scopes they released for sale. In 2008, right before they went under, Premier Reticle would have only cared about making the USMC scopes with the MTC turret mechanism, they wouldn't have cared which style went out for public sale. So, the elevation turret cap could be original to that scope, if it was always a civilian scope, or someone could have put the BDC turret on the scope at a later date. Remember, the DT turret caps were an S&B product, but it was Premier Reticle engraving the M118LR and Mk211 BDC information on the S&B turrets. Premier Reticle also supplied the Corps with spare DT BDC elevation turret caps, which have their own box with label on it. If you find one of these loose DT BDC elevation turret caps, then it’s very quick and easy to swap it out with the scope's original non-BDC DT turret cap.
Just so people are unformed about the turret cap markings, the turret cap is engraved "PR30M118LR." The "PR" is for Premier Reticle, the "30" is the caliber, and the "M118LR" is the specific military ammo that the BDC is calibrated for. If I recall, there were only 2 main shipments of M8541 scopes from S&B to Premier Reticle. The first shipment was in 2006, and the last one was in 2008. All of the first scopes had the NSN engraving on the top of the ocular housing, the later scopes didn't. Premier Reticle actually won the USMC M8541 contract, not S&B. So, S&B had to send the M8541 scope to the US in pieces, and then Premier Reticle built all of them in house. There weren't even sub-assemblies already put together for Premier Reticle. Every single part of the M8541 was loose, all the way down to the individual screw. Premier Reticle build all of the scopes from each individual piece, and they may or may not have used some of those S&B proprietary information when building their Heritage scopes.
The DT BDC elevation turret cap is technically incorrect for your later M8541 scope that doesn't have the NSN and is in a higher serial number range. However, if it was originally sold as a civilian scope, it might have had that DT turret from the start. Or it could be a turret cap that someone added at a later date. I actually own a civilian S&B scope that has no USMC markings on it (straight up regular civilian scope through and through), but it had a Premier Reticle USMC DT Mk211 .50BMG marked BDC on it! The previous owner knew nothing about it, and I have no idea how that elevation turret cap got to that scope. The only rational answer is that a previous owner was a military clone builder or collector, and that person put a loose DT BDC turret cap on the pure civilian scope. So, it's very understandable if a previous owner swapper out a regular DT turret cap for the BDC cap. There is also the extremely tiny chance that some of those DT turret mechanisms were put onto the last batch of non-NSN marked M8541 scopes, but this is a long shot (since they were converting the USMC owned scopes from DT to MTC by the time the parts for your scope were even sent to the US).
I personally think that your scope is a civilian purchase from Premier Reticle when they had a small overrun of the M8541 scopes. They would have assembled the civilian scopes with either DT or MTC mechanisms, so they just used whatever wasn't needed for the USMC scopes that were in the shop. That's just the most likely scenario. No matter what, the other guys commenting in this thread are correct, that is a very rare scope! With or without the NSN, any USMC M8541 marked scopes with a DT elevation turret mechanism are very rare! In fact, I've seen a handful of these later non-NSN DT turret M8541 scopes, but only 1 or 2 early NSN DT turret M8541 scopes. So, the specific type of DT turret scope that you own is very rare, but it's much more common than the other type of DT turret scope. Do to the rarity of being an actual M8541 DT scope (even without the NSN), I'd value it to be worth about $7,000+. It's a very nice scope, and even though it might not be "technically" correct (I'm sure the Corps had at least one of this type just to have an exception to the rule and prove me wrong, lol), it's damn correct enough and rare enough to be an amazing scope for any collection! Put that scope on an circa 2006 to 2008 M40A3, it will be perfect for that clone! Don't ever get hung up about not having an NSN on the ocular housing, it's a great scope!
I just sold 2 older ones, I'll have to see if I have a 3rd available. I'll shoot you a message if I do have a spare.
Here's another completely unique item, I got it from a friend who got it from a very famous collector/collection. This is an original prototype/test USMC M40A3 barrel from about 1998 or 1999! This barrel is milled for an experimental recoil lug that is very, very thick (I also have the original lug for it in my collection)! For regular production A3's, the Corps decided to use a thick recoil lug, but nothing even close to this fatty.
This barrel was made in 1998/99, it has 4 lands/grooves, 1:12 twist rate, and it was stamped with RTE-P instead of PWS-P. It's really amazing to have an RTE-P stamped M40A3 barrel, since all the production A3's were built after the shop was changed from RTE to PWS (December 7, 2001 is when the 2112's first built the production A3's for the Scout Sniper platoons). As far as I know, this barrel is one of the only M40A3 prototype/test barrels still in existence (there's a couple of these prototype/test A3 barrels in collections) that are stamped with RTE-P, all of the other production A3 barrels are stamped PWS-P. The serial number that's stamped on the barrel is 1732, which (if I recall correctly) is the serial number for M40A3 receiver E6701732. I'm pretty sure that this barrel was tested on an "E" prefix receiver, instead of being tested on a 6 digit receiver from 1966 (possibly used on serial number 221732, but I'm pretty certain about the E receiver).
There's also a "D" stamped on the barrel, which is actually the first letter of the barrel company's name. This is not a Schneider or Atkinson or Hart barrel, this is an actual Douglas USMC M40A3 barrel! Other barrels were tested at the same time that this prototype barrel was tested, but as we all know, Douglas didn't win the A3 barrel contract (Schneider won it). Gary Schneider actually still owns one of the A3 barrels that he submitted for the contract testing, it has over 20,000 rounds of 7.62x51mm M118LR ammo fired through it by the Marines, and it still shoots under 1 MOA at 100 yards! This is a pretty significant piece of USMC M40xx history!
Here's the original prototype/test M40A3 barrel from 1998/99 (bottom) with an original M40A1 Transitional barrel from 1978 (top). The A1 barrel is slightly shorter than the A3 barrel, and the A1 barrel has normal recoil lug milling whereas the A3 barrel has milling for a very thick recoil lug. This is one of the only M40A3 prototype/test barrels known to exist, and this is the only known M40A1 Transitional barrels known to exist (the only A1 barrel that's dated to the 1970's and the only truly verifiable Atkinson A1 barrel). Having these 2 barrels side-by-side is amazing, since these 2 barrels are some of the rarest and most important M40xx in existence!
This barrel was made in 1998/99, it has 4 lands/grooves, 1:12 twist rate, and it was stamped with RTE-P instead of PWS-P. It's really amazing to have an RTE-P stamped M40A3 barrel, since all the production A3's were built after the shop was changed from RTE to PWS (December 7, 2001 is when the 2112's first built the production A3's for the Scout Sniper platoons). As far as I know, this barrel is one of the only M40A3 prototype/test barrels still in existence (there's a couple of these prototype/test A3 barrels in collections) that are stamped with RTE-P, all of the other production A3 barrels are stamped PWS-P. The serial number that's stamped on the barrel is 1732, which (if I recall correctly) is the serial number for M40A3 receiver E6701732. I'm pretty sure that this barrel was tested on an "E" prefix receiver, instead of being tested on a 6 digit receiver from 1966 (possibly used on serial number 221732, but I'm pretty certain about the E receiver).
There's also a "D" stamped on the barrel, which is actually the first letter of the barrel company's name. This is not a Schneider or Atkinson or Hart barrel, this is an actual Douglas USMC M40A3 barrel! Other barrels were tested at the same time that this prototype barrel was tested, but as we all know, Douglas didn't win the A3 barrel contract (Schneider won it). Gary Schneider actually still owns one of the A3 barrels that he submitted for the contract testing, it has over 20,000 rounds of 7.62x51mm M118LR ammo fired through it by the Marines, and it still shoots under 1 MOA at 100 yards! This is a pretty significant piece of USMC M40xx history!
Here's the original prototype/test M40A3 barrel from 1998/99 (bottom) with an original M40A1 Transitional barrel from 1978 (top). The A1 barrel is slightly shorter than the A3 barrel, and the A1 barrel has normal recoil lug milling whereas the A3 barrel has milling for a very thick recoil lug. This is one of the only M40A3 prototype/test barrels known to exist, and this is the only known M40A1 Transitional barrels known to exist (the only A1 barrel that's dated to the 1970's and the only truly verifiable Atkinson A1 barrel). Having these 2 barrels side-by-side is amazing, since these 2 barrels are some of the rarest and most important M40xx in existence!
Got mine thinking i need a pic rail on mine just for the anvil30
I plan on letting them go way below current market price. 1 per person and some kind of proof of being in the process of gathering parts for a build.
I will be putting a gypsy curse on them that anyone that flips it for 2-3x the price will get hemorrhoids
So if you or anyone you know has been on the hunt for one, let me know all gone. Hopefully have some more early into 2025
I will be putting a gypsy curse on them that anyone that flips it for 2-3x the price will get hemorrhoids
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That picture with the two Marines, an M40A1 and its green Protecto cases is on the M40 picture thread. I don’t know those two Marines, it’s just a neat picture from many years ago.
Did a scope swap on my replica M40A5 recently:
It now wears a take-off M8541a in good shape.
…so that scope swap allows me to put my civilian S&B scope on my pending M39 replica. Just need to get the proper SIMRAD cap for it:
It now wears a take-off M8541a in good shape.
…so that scope swap allows me to put my civilian S&B scope on my pending M39 replica. Just need to get the proper SIMRAD cap for it:
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Anyone got a chrono read on Mk316 out of the A6? Trying to clone it and my load seems low.
Ack the documents state 41.75gr IMR 4064. I'm Australian. We can't get that. Substituted with the same load of Varget.
Federal Brass
Federal 210M Primer
175gr SMK
COAL 2.806" ave
2543fps MV
Ack the documents state 41.75gr IMR 4064. I'm Australian. We can't get that. Substituted with the same load of Varget.
Federal Brass
Federal 210M Primer
175gr SMK
COAL 2.806" ave
2543fps MV
Federal loads it to a specific velocity for the military, so I-4064 charge weight will vary a little bit based on powder lot. (Each powder lot is tested by Federal to ensure it meets the specs). Military Spec is "2580 fps 78 feet from the muzzle +/- 30 FPS ES, with an SD of 18 max.” That's very close to 2620 to 2630 fps at the muzzle of a standard 24” test barrel, at standard atmospheric conditions. (Note: velocity reading at 78 feet is approx 25 meters from the muzzle).
Your rifle has a 20” barrel so I would think 2570 to 2580 fps at the muzzle is about right. Might try 41.8, 41.9 and 42.0 grains of your Varget, but I would settle on which ever load produces the best groups and has the lowest ES & SD.
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Hey mate, that's solid information.
We've been trying to suss this for a while. We've got a small stockpile left of the older Lake City stuff, and some other stuff that is from the 90s and quite a bit slower, but Mk316 is a bit of a gaurded item down here so we have nothing to compare it to.
What you've explained there is what we've suspected for a while. There was an AB39 form with the ammunition specifications on it floating around but I can't seem to find it and the link I had saved to favourites no longer works. In that, it stated almost exactly as you said WRT the MV. There's other data floating around that states that's the spec for the A6, but we were wondering if it was just a copy of the proof data being pasted into the A6 info. Which sounds dumb but I've seen that happen first hand. The edu nerds grabbed our 62gr ammo box and put in our doctrine our guns push a 62gr 223 bullet at 2960fps from our 11.5 SBRs.
It's a silly mistake but it can happen and if the MV is the proof data on the 24" barrel as you've stated, then we are only about 10fps behind where we should be which is spot on for 41.9-42gr Varget as you say.
Thanks for the reply mate, that was really good.
RWS did an awesome job. Have 1k rounds of 168 fgmm ready to put it to work this weekend. Need to start looking at paint jobs next..krylon is in the very near future.
Took mine to 750yds with ease this past weekend. Great looking rifle. Can’t wait to see it with some paint!
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