Powder measure for bulk/precision 223

SanPatHogger · Jul 30, 2024

Right now I am using a Lee perfect powder measure. It works fine and I usually throw slightly light and then trickle up. I can throw 3 perfect charges, then a low and then a high. I put in a baffle that a buddy of mine 3D printed for me but it almost seems to have made it worse.
But now I am going to be loading a few thousand 223/556 and I will also be stretching the AR out further than I have before. Looking for a powder measure that throws the most consistant charges.
A buddy of mine said to get a Redding. I was also thinking about getting an electronic measure but then I read about how many of them go bad really quick, I want something that will last. Right now I am running N-140 powder but maybe going to a spherical powder would be better and I would not need another measure?
Any suggestions?

Mike Casselton · Jul 31, 2024

Go spherical on the powder and use a measure.
I have multiple RCBS, a Redding and a Harrell's.
All of them drop ball powders very accurately. No need to drop low and trickle up.

The key is to work on your technique.

RegionRat · Jul 31, 2024

Since your thread is a little quiet, I will add a few thoughts.

Yes, a spherical will always yield better thrower results than an extruded. However, unless your rig likes that ball powder it is cold comfort.

The Lee Perfect outperforms almost every one of the throwers out there, including the expensive ones. So, don't expect better thrower performance based on spending factors more on them compared to that cheap Lee.

If you could have a Prometheus, that would end this thread but those are typically not within the budget of casual folks.

A good alternative was the AutoTrickler V3 with the Ingenuity Precision Trickler, but those are hard to find since the current model is a V4.
I also have a V4 that I upgraded with the Ingenuity Precision Trickler, but I still prefer the V3+IP combination for pure speed and performance.

N-140 is pretty good stuff, and depending on your current load performance, you may have to work hard to match it with a spherical powder, but it isn't impossible.

I have several CFE223 loads that come so close to the performance of extruded ones like N-140 or Varget, that I bulk load them on the Dillon with the Dillon thrower. When you have to buckle down and shoot your best to see a slight difference in target performance, while the work to load is a huge difference, then it is a no-brainer. But, you will have to pay attention to temperature conditions.

Some of this difference comes from the additives in the CFE223 used for copper fouling reduction, plus the fact that the ball powders are never as temperature-flat as the extruded ones.

You see the issues pretty well. If your time is spent on the loading bench and you are not happy with the shooting, then those savings are cold comfort. On the other hand, if the difference is splitting hairs between best and still very good, then it should be worth a test of the ball powder before you spend even more on equipment and process changes.

smoothy8500 · Jul 31, 2024

SanPatHogger said:
stretching the AR out further than I have before
I can throw 3 perfect charges, then a low and then a high.
I am running N-140 powder but maybe going to a spherical powder would be better and I would not need another measure?

I'll piggyback on what @RegionRat brings up, coming from a NRA Highpower perspective. We all use progressive presses with some powder meter/dropper, even for the 600yd ammo. Some of us use spherical, others use short kernel stick powder. N140 is a fairly short kernel.

When you say "high and low", how much? I would imagine you are within +/- 0.1gr 98% of the time. I would suggest you test your load at 600yd, and do a comparison of 10 rounds +.1 gr, and 10 rounds -.1grain. You will see almost minimal difference between the three groups in size and POI.

simonp · Jul 31, 2024

smoothy8500 said:
I'll piggyback on what @RegionRat brings up, coming from a NRA Highpower perspective. We all use progressive presses with some powder meter/dropper, even for the 600yd ammo. Some of us use spherical, others use short kernel stick powder. N140 is a fairly short kernel.

When you say "high and low", how much? I would imagine you are within +/- 0.1gr 98% of the time. I would suggest you test your load at 600yd, and do a comparison of 10 rounds +.1 gr, and 10 rounds -.1grain. You will see almost minimal difference between the three groups in size and POI.

Curious to know what sort of dropper folks are using with a Dillon 650.. like to be able to load 77 SMK's in bulk on the 650 with a high degree of accuracy being maintained, be a big time saver. TIA

SanPatHogger · Jul 31, 2024

smoothy8500 said:
I'll piggyback on what @RegionRat brings up, coming from a NRA Highpower perspective. We all use progressive presses with some powder meter/dropper, even for the 600yd ammo. Some of us use spherical, others use short kernel stick powder. N140 is a fairly short kernel.

When you say "high and low", how much? I would imagine you are within +/- 0.1gr 98% of the time. I would suggest you test your load at 600yd, and do a comparison of 10 rounds +.1 gr, and 10 rounds -.1grain. You will see almost minimal difference between the three groups in size and POI.

I want to shoot a fairly big 3 gun match North east of Austin and they go out to almost 600 yards.
I use a RCBS 505. I have trickled a perfect 25.5 and then moved the .1 part of the scale up one and down one and then see where the needle shifts. It's to the fat edge of the needle both ways. I would say most throws are within 0.1 of perfect. But then there is one that is low, and I would estimate 0.3 and then high by 0.3.
I guess that could be a good test. I'll load 10, then load 10 at .3 high and 10 at .3 low and shoot them all at the same distance at the same time. If it's a big difference I'll have to spend more time keeping them tighter. If they all shoot similar I'll just throw.

SanPatHogger · Jul 31, 2024

RegionRat said:
Since your thread is a little quiet, I will add a few thoughts.

Yes, a spherical will always yield better thrower results than an extruded. However, unless your rig likes that ball powder it is cold comfort.

The Lee Perfect outperforms almost every one of the throwers out there, including the expensive ones. So, don't expect better thrower performance based on spending factors more on them compared to that cheap Lee.

If you could have a Prometheus, that would end this thread but those are typically not within the budget of casual folks.

A good alternative was the AutoTrickler V3 with the Ingenuity Precision Trickler, but those are hard to find since the current model is a V4.
I also have a V4 that I upgraded with the Ingenuity Precision Trickler, but I still prefer the V3+IP combination for pure speed and performance.

N-140 is pretty good stuff, and depending on your current load performance, you may have to work hard to match it with a spherical powder, but it isn't impossible.

I have several CFE223 loads that come so close to the performance of extruded ones like N-140 or Varget, that I bulk load them on the Dillon with the Dillon thrower. When you have to buckle down and shoot your best to see a slight difference in target performance, while the work to load is a huge difference, then it is a no-brainer. But, you will have to pay attention to temperature conditions.

Some of this difference comes from the additives in the CFE223 used for copper fouling reduction, plus the fact that the ball powders are never as temperature-flat as the extruded ones.

You see the issues pretty well. If your time is spent on the loading bench and you are not happy with the shooting, then those savings are cold comfort. On the other hand, if the difference is splitting hairs between best and still very good, then it should be worth a test of the ball powder before you spend even more on equipment and process changes.

Good information here. Thank you

sinister · Aug 1, 2024

RegionRat said:
The Lee Perfect outperforms almost every one of the throwers out there, including the expensive ones.

This right here.

Many years ago several Precision Shooting writers experimented and verified the Lee is just as precise-consistent (and sometimes better) as many other brands and models when it comes to extruded powders.

It doesn't have to be expensive to work well.

I use a Redding BR-3, my brother a Harrel's. The shooter still has to point the rifle and break the shot.

jgray · Sep 20, 2024

For my pistol rounds I use the lee powder measure but for precision loads I use the Frankford Arsenal perfect powder measure and
a powder through die in my turret press

R_A_W · Sep 20, 2024

Accuracy is contingent upon your consistency...

I recently loaded 50 rounds and tested my Harrells BR with CFE223 checking every throw on my FX-120i to see if I could just skip clearing out my ST in the future. I had to throw 100 charges & discard 50 to get 50 loaded rounds. I "double tapped" the lever up for the 34 column and "triple tapped" the 66 column, both produced 25 loaded rounds.

Obviously I wouldn't have known which to discard without the FX-120i, so the more precise "Load" numbers aren't representative. For <600 yards, the double tap is good enough for me. 1,000? I'd use the ST & a different powder.

MarkyMark007 · Sep 24, 2024

did you write down every charge?
I wonder how accurate can be throwers, so I would like to read all your throws, not just good ones.
sincerely

Old Corps 8541 · Sep 28, 2024

jgray said:
For my pistol rounds I use the lee powder measure but for precision loads I use the Frankford Arsenal perfect powder measure and
a powder through die in my turret pressView attachment 8506185

I see Varget, maybe Bench Mark, and IMR 4895, and a WW powder, how precise { 0.?? gn.} does your FA handle the "stick" powders ?

6brshooter · Sep 28, 2024

simonp said:
Curious to know what sort of dropper folks are using with a Dillon 650.. like to be able to load 77 SMK's in bulk on the 650 with a high degree of accuracy being maintained, be a big time saver. TIA

I've had good luck with tac in several 223 with 77smk. Tac throws like water in a uniflow(comp version), Dillon powder measure, and a harrels. I do most of 223 on a 650, except for 1 bolt gun load that i use h4895 with 75eldm and those are done on a chargemaster as they are for 800-1k shooting.

6brshooter · Sep 28, 2024

550 and 100yd with 77/tac. This was a bolt gun with a 24" 223 wylde chamber, speed was right at 3k.

Herb Stoner · Sep 28, 2024

I’d go with a Dillon measure - Mounted on an XL750 of course…

RegionRat · Sep 28, 2024

simonp said:
Curious to know what sort of dropper folks are using with a Dillon 650.. like to be able to load 77 SMK's in bulk on the 650 with a high degree of accuracy being maintained, be a big time saver. TIA

Sorry for not catching your question sooner...

On the 650/750, while it isn't impossible to use a Lee brand dropper on the Dillon machines, there really isn't a strong reason to do it, so I just put in some detailing on the Dillon droppers and run with them. I have run the Lee on there for a while, but went back to Dillon just to keep it simple.

I will admit that the performance statistic only barely changed from all the detailing, but if anything the dropper does run smoother, cleaner, and needs less attention after making sure it is all worked out.

The thread and post would go real long to list details you can do to dress up a Dillon dropper, so give that a search and if you are still needing help send me a PM and we can visit. Order yourself the older style return springs, polish/wax the "cast funnel" on the inside, insure the fit and function of the slides is perfect then prime with powdered graphite, etc.. It sounds like a fuss but it really isn't.

A dropped charge on a progressive will never perform like a modern dispenser, but as we have said above in many places... that isn't what stops folks from hitting their goals in the vast majority of contexts.

There is a level of performance where extreme levels of detail on all the parameters will matter, but most folks are not in that game.

Also, if you are running much 223/556, the aftermarket 223 adapter with the smooth/long funnel inside is worth it as well.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Dillon-mods-upgrades/42-542831/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Dillon-powder-measure-deburring-polishing/42-488876/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Dillon-Fail-Safe-powder-measure-upgrade/42-518731/

Todc · Sep 28, 2024

I'm using a lee thrower, fx120i, & AT trickler for N140. Quick and accurate.

jpjulian · Sep 29, 2024

I threw many thousands charges of RL15 on a Hornady Pro-Jector progressive and a Redding BR-3. For 200-300 yards in highpower thrown charges of a stick powder are perfectly capable of high X clean scores.

6brshooter · Sep 29, 2024

All good stuff for Dillon measures using stick powders. Anything you can do to smooth and avoid bridging/help settle kernels is good for consistent stick charges. Once I set my "normal" Dillon powder charge bar to 25.9gr of tac, I threw 35 charges. Only 2 were not 25.9, I believe they were .1 low. I did periodically check random powder charge on my 650 and never found anything but 25.9, so i just verify charge bar when i start and roll on.

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