Is this normal Safety protocol for USPSA?

357Max

357Max

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    • Sep 11, 2019
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    #1
    For all the shit PRS gets at least there's a 180 rule.

    I've never shot any kind of hand gun match so honestly don't know, but I cringed like a mofo at the 5 sec mark.

     
    #9
    357Max said:
    He broke the fuck out of the 180 rule, looks like about 15 - 20.

    Not blaming shooter this looks like the intended layout & that's what I'm questioning.
    Click to expand...
    He did not ever break the 180. In some places the muzzle might have been at 160 - 170 degrees, but so what?

    You might think you understand the rule in that sport but you clearly do not.

    Nothing I saw there is unusual in USPSA matches at any level.

    For the record I'm a trained USPSA range officer and a Master classification (carry optics) competitor. I mention that only to establish my level of knowledge about the game.
     
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    #10
    I’m on my phone so a bit hard to see, but when he was shooting at the far right hand target, are those people just maybe 15-20 degrees further to the right?
     
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    #11
    308pirate said:
    He did not ever break the 180. In some places the muzzle might have been at 160 - 170 degrees, but so what?

    You might think you understand the rule in that sport but you clearly do not.

    Nothing I saw there is unusual in USPSA matches at any level.

    For the record I'm a trained USPSA range officer and a Master classification (carry optics) competitor. I mention that only to establish my level of knowledge about the game.
    Click to expand...
    I didn't, don't think the competitor did anything wrong. I guess technically he did not break the 180 on the stage yes, but the people down range are what 15 - 20 degrees off the line of fire without berm cover. The stage layout is what looks unsafe.

    This just looks very unsafe to me. Screen shot below direction of fire relative to the people down the ally way to the right. The berm tapers down right in their direction.

    1723083925467.png
     
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    #13
    357Max said:
    I didn't, don't think the competitor did anything wrong. I guess technically he did not break the 180 on the stage yes, but the people down range are what 15 - 20 degrees off the line of fire without berm cover. The stage layout is what looks unsafe.

    This just looks very unsafe to me. Screen shot below direction of fire relative to the people down the ally way to the right. The berm tapers down right in their direction.

    View attachment 8475313
    Click to expand...
    He is being watched by two range officers and every shooter in the squad.

    There is nothing unsafe here. If you insist there is, then this sport isn't for you.
     
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    #20
    I wouldn’t go to a run and gun pistol match for anything. Mostly because of the way the shooters behave. But also because apparently the 180 rule means you can be blazing away under time pressure at the 178.5* mark and “there is nothing unsafe”. Maybe it’s a lens effect but nah. Fuck that. Also, I can’t get my jorts up that high no matter what kind of ghey-ops belt I wear.
     
    #21
    308pirate said:
    He is being watched by two range officers and every shooter in the squad.

    There is nothing unsafe here. If you insist there is, then this sport isn't for you.
    Click to expand...
    That's why I asked. The 180 rule was a poor choice of description my bad. A better way to put it would be that in Rifle matches there's no human inside 90 degrees of direction of fire.

    Your obviously a very proficient shooter as was the guy in the video. In your video, no one is inside 90 degrees your direction of fire.
    I've not seen much video of USPSA, but never seen anything like this. Those people are way inside that 90 degree zone.

    Granted my frame of reference is rifle matches. If that's considered normal, I cant envision ever getting comfortable with that. I'll stick to rifles for comps.

    Best example I've got from a rifle match.

    There's a cell tower behind the back of this clearing. Someone spotted a technician on the top platform. Lazed him at 1480y IIRC & he's several hundred feet off the ground. Dude was jamming out dancing up there with headphones on oblivious.

    MD made the call to close the stage. IMO the guy on top that tower had better odds than the 6 + people in the video I posted.
    That MD is Solid guy I've got a lot of respect for.

    A few stages later that same day I saw a guy get DQ'd for sending a round skyward fighting a jam.

    1723085549713.jpeg


    If I look real close I can just make the guy out between the 2 cell antenna halos.

    1723086411894.jpeg
     
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    #22
    357Max said:
    That's why I asked. The 180 rule was a poor choice of description my bad. A better way to put it would be that in Rifle matches there's no human inside 90 degrees of direction of fire.

    Your obviously a very proficient shooter as was the guy in the video. In your video, no one is inside 90 degrees your direction of fire.
    Click to expand...
    In pistol matches the 180 degree line is always parallel to the back berm. The 180 arc doesnt move with the muzzle.

    The muzzle must remain inside the 180 degree arc regardless of how and where the shooter moves.

    It's the way it's always been and always will be.
     
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    #23
    OREGUN said:
    I wouldn’t go to a run and gun pistol match for anything. Mostly because of the way the shooters behave.
    Click to expand...
    Id love to know more about this behavior.

    Having attended about an equal amount of IPSC/USPSA/IDPA matches as PRS/NRL matches at this point over the last 8-10 years i can say ive been flagged more at long gun matches, seen more unsafe on the clock stuff, seen more AD/NDs, seen dudes walkup to a stage I'm ROing with a hot center fire gun ect ect ect at long gun matches than pistol/two gun matches. The list goes on at does not improve.

    Not going to a USPASA match for fear of being hurt by guns not pointed at you tracks with other unfounded fears but i digress there. There have been well publicized pistol match incidents and i only hope such thing never happens on the long gun side.

    that said, Go to a pistol match, on average you wont get shot any more or less than going to a long gun match.
     
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    #25
    357Max said:
    That's why I asked. The 180 rule was a poor choice of description my bad. A better way to put it would be that in Rifle matches there's no human inside 90 degrees of direction of fire.

    Your obviously a very proficient shooter as was the guy in the video. In your video, no one is inside 90 degrees your direction of fire.
    I've not seen much video of USPSA, but never seen anything like this. Those people are way inside that 90 degree zone.

    Granted my frame of reference is rifle matches. If that's considered normal, I cant envision ever getting comfortable with that. I'll stick to rifles for comps.

    Best example I've got from a rifle match.

    There's a cell tower behind the back of this clearing. Someone spotted a technician on the top platform. Lazed him at 1480y IIRC & he's several hundred feet off the ground. Dude was jamming out dancing up there with headphones on oblivious.

    MD made the call to close the stage. IMO the guy on top that tower had better odds than the 6 + people in the video I posted.
    That MD is Solid guy I've got a lot of respect for.

    A few stages later that same day I saw a guy get DQ'd for sending a round skyward fighting a jam.

    View attachment 8475331

    If I look real close I can just make the guy out between the 2 cell antenna halos.

    View attachment 8475355
    Click to expand...
    I remember this...
     
    #26
    Must be the camera wide angle making it look worse than it is. That far right target with Sloped berm does not look like a good idea. Definitely not how our clubs set up on any stage ever but I'd defer to those with legit experience which I do not have.... and as soon as I saw that set up, I would not ever have.
     
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    #27
    Not the first time I've seen that happen. Had a similar argument a few years ago. Happens when the organisers build their dream stages at the mouth of the shooting bay.

    Any safety officer worth his salt knows people screw up; even more so under pressure. It is not inconceivable that a shooter may swing too far with his finger on the trigger. Just have to look at the amount of DQ's in matches every year. Building a stage with a chance of 180 so close to the mouth of the bay is just looking for shit.
     
    #28
    Mr. F said:
    Id love to know more about this behavior.

    Having attended about an equal amount of IPSC/USPSA/IDPA matches as PRS/NRL matches at this point over the last 8-10 years i can say ive been flagged more at long gun matches, seen more unsafe on the clock stuff, seen more AD/NDs, seen dudes walkup to a stage I'm ROing with a hot center fire gun ect ect ect at long gun matches than pistol/two gun matches. The list goes on at does not improve.

    Not going to a USPASA match for fear of being hurt by guns not pointed at you tracks with other unfounded fears but i digress there. There have been well publicized pistol match incidents and i only hope such thing never happens on the long gun side.

    that said, Go to a pistol match, on average you wont get shot any more or less than going to a long gun match.
    Click to expand...
    Exhibit No. 1 is that the 308pirate is an unending asshole to everyone on this site to the exclusion of anyone learning anything useful from his apparently vast well of knowledge.

    It’s the people that make pistol matches intolerable.
     
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    #29
    OREGUN said:
    Exhibit No. 1 is that the 308pirate is an unending asshole to everyone on this site to the exclusion of anyone learning anything useful from his apparently vast well of knowledge.

    It’s the people that make pistol matches intolerable.
    Click to expand...
    You re all over the place. First, guns pointed away from you scare you.

    Now youre blanket bracketing the whole community over a dude no being nice to you.

    Heres an idea, spare no fucks.

    Dude goes on a date, gets told hes not her type, proceeds to give up sexual inter course altogether.

    Jesus….
     
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    #31
    JerkyFreak said:
    Not the first time I've seen that happen. Had a similar argument a few years ago. Happens when the organisers build their dream stages at the mouth of the shooting bay.

    Any safety officer worth his salt knows people screw up; even more so under pressure. It is not inconceivable that a shooter may swing too far with his finger on the trigger. Just have to look at the amount of DQ's in matches every year. Building a stage with a chance of 180 so close to the mouth of the bay is just looking for shit.
    Click to expand...

    I think a lot of people are being fooled by the camera. Many cameras distort and deceive the view and that's one reason video can't be used to arbitrate DQ's in USPSA.
     
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    #32
    BuildingConceptsllc said:
    Must be the camera wide angle making it look worse than it is.....
    Click to expand...
    I've seen dozens of threads like this online over the years. I've seen it with my own videos. The wide angle lens make it look far worse than it really is. Sure there were plenty of times where there was a legitimate "that wasn't great" about it, but it was always the camera making it look worse. GoPro's and the like make mountains out of molehills and make targets look much farther away than they really are. ;)
     
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    #33
    He's good.

    MDs do dork traps like that all the time. It depends on where you engage whether or not the 180 is broken. If I was the RO on the stage, I would not allow competitors to park near the fault lines. It does appear to be a quite narrow bay/area however for that type of stage.
     
    #34
    Looks good to me!

    If you are seeing your target and sending rounds where intended then I see no problem here.

    If you are spraying and praying and missing the whole berm? Go home and dry practice.
     
    #35
    Those people on the right messing with the roller are damn close and between the burm and participant distance-wise. Could catch splash/burm debris. Common sense tells me this is sketchy. Imagine if the dude trips or something.
     
    #36
    cas6969 said:
    I've seen dozens of threads like this online over the years. I've seen it with my own videos. The wide angle lens make it look far worse than it really is. Sure there were plenty of times where there was a legitimate "that wasn't great" about it, but it was always the camera making it look worse. GoPro's and the like make mountains out of molehills and make targets look much farther away than they really are. ;)
    Click to expand...
    Yeah I figured it had to be. When I take pics of houses and make the camera wide to get the whole room in the pic gets distorted and it makes the room look absolutely massive sometimes.
     
    #38
    Baron23 said:
    Ah...I dunno....wide angle lens or not, those people are just to the right of the end of the berm.
    Click to expand...
    It is a normal and accepted part of the sport.

    That match was held at the SIG shooting facility in NH. So it's not like it's some shithole club in the middle of nowhere.
     
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    #39
    308pirate said:
    It is a normal and accepted part of the sport.

    That match was held at the SIG shooting facility in NH. So it's not like it's some shithole club in the middle of nowhere.
    Click to expand...
    Well, I really shouldn't say anything...in skeet you got lots of people walking around with shotguns, five guys on a squad, people visible on the next field, etc. I actually don't know of a single shooting accident in registered skeet and I've been around it for a good while.

    Cheers and thanks
     
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    #40
    Baron23 said:
    Well, I really shouldn't say anything...in skeet you got lots of people walking around with shotguns, five guys on a squad, people visible on the next field, etc. I actually don't know of a single shooting accident in registered skeet and I've been around it for a good while.

    Cheers and thanks
    Click to expand...
    Fair warning; if you mention shotgun sports and safety in the same sentence 2 more times, you summon the real 308pirate…
     
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    #42
    I’ll be shooting (if one can call my use of a pistol that) this weekend. If the stage setup is the same as the last match, competitors will just about need a mule to get from the front of the bays to the shooting line.
     
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    #43
    I watched that video the OP posted. Nothing wrong there. I think what throws people off is the hat-cam view and the fact that USPSA stages are not restricted to just directly downrange. Its not uncommon for us to have targets up against the side berms.

    The “180” rule is not based on the back berm. It’s based on the median intersect of the bay to account for not all bays are square. There’s nothing unsafe with somebody shooting on the 179, per the rules it is still inside the 180, tho I generally discourage that since most RO’s (myself included) can’t tell the diff between 179 and 181. And the way most stages are set up the shooter would have to point the muzzle something like 30-40 degs uprange to even get close to flagging a bystander.
     
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    #44
    ECK said:
    The “180” rule is not based on the back berm. It’s based on the median intersect of the bay to account for not all bays are square.
    Click to expand...
    It's an oversimplification that gets the point across to those not in tune with the rules, and it's a correct interpretation like 95% of the time.
     
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    #47
    I did USPSA & 3-gun for about a decade before switching to PRS stuff, and was a certified RO. I’d agree that shooter did not break the 180. That is poor stage design to have it that close to the end of the berm, but not uncommon.

    The gun handling and safety culture in PRS world is fucking embarrassing compared to USPSA & 3G. ND’s, sky loading, sweeping yourself and others, horizontal over the shoulder carry, unsafe gun handling, guns left loaded on the line, stage DQ’s for what should be match DQ’s, the whole culture of defending crappy practices and resistance to clear and reasonable rules is astonishing when you come from the other side. Running with guns is inherently more dangerous, but pretty much everyone treats the rules with a lot more respect than I’ve ever seen at a PRS type match.
     
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    #48
    As many others have brought up- I've shot lots of IDPA & USPSA over the years and this is a typical stage layout but the wide angle of the camera exacerbates and distorts the actual line of sight/shooting angle. If it calms any nerves, there's a reason the pits are shaped like horseshoes for these type of ranges.

    I can see how the video might suggest that the shooter is shooting towards a berm with bystanders directly in the bullet's path but I'd estimate that in reality it's at least 30 degrees further away from the bystanders you see in the video. Truth be told when I started shooting IDPA/USPSA myself, that freaked me out a little bit too having berms on the side with targets and having to think of these bays set up for 270 degree shooting rather than a flat range where the backstops are directly in front of you with range flags on either side. But yes- perfectly standard stage arrangement.

    -LD
     
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    #49
    1911Shootist said:
    The gun handling and safety culture in PRS world is fucking embarrassing compared to USPSA & 3G. ND’s, sky loading, sweeping yourself and others, horizontal over the shoulder carry, unsafe gun handling, guns left loaded on the line, stage DQ’s for what should be match DQ’s, the whole culture of defending crappy practices and resistance to clear and reasonable rules is astonishing when you come from the other side. Running with guns is inherently more dangerous, but pretty much everyone treats the rules with a lot more respect than I’ve ever seen at a PRS type match.
    Click to expand...
    1000%

    Stage DQs are a fucking joke.

    Add skeet, trap, and especially sporting clays to the list of sports with zero safety culture and enforcement.
     
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    #50
    357Max said:
    In your video, no one is inside 90 degrees your direction of fire.
    Click to expand...
    I missed that before. There were absolutely people inside a 90 degree arc from the muzzle to up range when I'm shooting at the first four targets, especially the two uprange of each pair. You just don't see the people in a cell phone video aimed at me.

    The fact that my pistol never pointed uprange from the median intercept of the back stop, the fact that the bay has side berms, and the fact that I am being watched by two ROs who would stop me and disqualify me from the match if i broke any USPSA safety rule (not just the 180) means it was a safe evolution.
     
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