Hunting & Fishing Experimenting w/ different calibers on deer (Graphic)

E

Eurodriver

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Oct 21, 2011
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#1
Over the last few weeks I've been experimenting using the same bullet but different calibers. These are southeastern deer - so already pretty small. Most are yearling bucks or does between 60-100lbs. Ranges were pretty close. All bullets are ELDX - .223, 6.5, 308, 300 WSM. All handloads.

.223 Neck Shot @ 130 yards 80gr ELDX (this was earlier this year)

223.jpg


6.5 CM 143gr ELDX @ 90 & 110y

IMG_1904.jpg


308 178gr ELDX @ 40 yards & 160 yards

308.jpg


300 WSM 200gr ELDX @ 140y (Both pics are the same deer)

IMG_2083.jpg

300wsm.jpg


There was definitely no "Magic bullet". They all seemed to perform the same (223 was a neck shot). The sample size is limited so I plan on shooting more with the .223 in the lungs and trying to get similar POIs on deer to get better comparisons. It's hard to tell if a deer is slightly quartering away with thermal especially at 100+ yards.

At these ranges and with these deer, given any rifle, I'd stick to a .223 AR. It's got more rounds, less recoil, and my thermal is more of an AR platform friendly setup (NOX35) than a bolt gun. Neck shots drop them instantly whereas even with the big rifles in the lungs they still run between 25-50y.

I think the 300 WSM is unnecessary and not worth the cost of ammo or recoil. I didn't do an autopsy but they all ran the same distance before dying. If I had to use a bolt gun/bigger rifle caliber I'd stick to the 6.5 CM for the reduced recoil. 300 WSM would be a great longer range/Elk gun but on southeastern whitetail it just seems so excessive.
 
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#2
Eurodriver said:
I think the 300 WSM is unnecessary and not worth the cost of ammo or recoil. I didn't do an autopsy but they all ran the same distance before dying. If I had to use a bolt gun/bigger rifle caliber I'd stick to the 6.5 CM for the reduced recoil.
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But... the kinetic energy... the knockdown power™...
Eurodriver said:
300 WSM would be a great longer range/Elk gun
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It's not necessary for that either. But saying it makes people who don't understand how bullets work very angry.
 
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#4
Eurodriver said:
I've been laughed off of this very forum for suggesting a .223 on a 90lb doe is more than adequate.
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Hunters almost anywhere other than over on RS are the hunting equivalent of the guy at the local gunstore telling you .45 ACP will always be better than 9mm because it "stopped charging japs on Iwo Jima". That doesn't mean SnipersHide isn't great for general long range / precision rifle stuff. But there's a distinct lack of understanding regarding how bullet work / kill things.
 
#7
Eurodriver said:
I've been laughed off of this very forum for suggesting a .223 on a 90lb doe is more than adequate.
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Our place is in south Texas and we have a whole lot of small deer. I've seen 556 work fine on deer bigger than that.

I've come to prefer the Grendel as a go to because I don't really care about deer hunting - I'm more hoping to kill a 300+ lb hog. The Grendel has a little more ass and possibility of dropping those, but my sons use 556 for 90% of their field time and at night, with thermal, have killed many, many hogs with green tip.

If I'm going out for a deer and could see a big buck, sure - 20" grendel or 308 - but 556 kills a lot of stuff.
 
#8
I've killed 2 deer with a 6.5cm 143 eldx. They were both about 40 yards, but expansion was lackluster and killed slowly compared to the 308 I grew up using. Have probably 20 killed with the 308, mostly federal fusions, and damn near all of them dropped in their tracks with any sort of good vital shot placement. Those fusions seem to do a great job of energy transfer on decently sized deer from SE Washington. Did do a decent amount of damage as far as blood shot meat though.

Nearly all my hunting is with the muzzle loader now, so not much recent data.
 
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#9
I take it you do crop damage/deer control down there? I do the same in Michigan

I’ve shot a ton (about 20 years worth now) starting with
223 and 55 SP black hills ammo

6.5 CM with 142 smk and 143 ELDX

260 with 143 ELDX

308 with 150 gameking, 165 gameking, 150 SST, 165 SST Superformance, 168 smk, 175 smk and 178 ELDX

300 WM with 200 ELDX

338 Lapua with 300 SMK

50 cal with 750 AMAX (I wouldn’t suggest this)

My go to now is the 308 and 178 ELDX. Have several thousand ready to load up for the coming years. I also liked 200 ELDX in the 300 WM. Our deer are a bit bigger than yours. We also shoot in fields where the farm owns the field but not necessarily the land around it. So more damage and terminal performance is a good thing generally. We do many headshots though.

Ranges typically from 100-500. Have 34 of those kills between 600-1200 yards though

The Hornady SST were excellent rounds as well. The ELDX perform better at distance though and are more accurate by design.

I’ll be making a second AIAT into a 300 WSM for next year. That will be running 178 ELDX or 200 ELDX as well. Will crank them out 400+ fps faster than my 20” 308 though.

Shot placement is truly everything with bullets. I wouldn’t recommend the smk for deer. I shot a lot of deer with them. Even the 338 Lapua if it didn’t hit bone would pinhole in and out

The 178 ELDX is the only bullet design I found in all those that’s yielding consistently great performance
 
#10
Thoughts on the ELD vs SST, in a Grendel specifically?

I don't have a big enough sample size to have statistically significant opinions. In short, many say the SST is a much better choice but the ELD seem to work well enough on pigs.
 
#11
pangris said:
Thoughts on the ELD vs SST, in a Grendel specifically?

I don't have a big enough sample size to have statistically significant opinions. In short, many say the SST is a much better choice but the ELD seem to work well enough on pigs.
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I feel the SST is an excellent bullet for that. Inside 300 yard shooting it’s great
 
#12
There is a really interesting thread on Rokslide that has gathered a bunch of attention of late for vaunting smaller calibers for larger animals. There is a guy on there that has also done alot of crop damage work and has a bunch of terminal data. His go to on deer is a .223 with a 77 grain TMK. Some of the wounds are downright gnarly. The whole premise is that the smaller calibers tend to be far more conducive to accurate shots.

I would echo that sentiment. I have shot quite a few cow elk (including some pretty large mature cows) with the 108 ELDM out of my 6 Creedmoor. The wounds have been pretty extensive, and they have all died really quick when shot behind the shoulder and in the lungs. Some of the wounds were so nasty I was losing quite a bit of meat, which wasn't great. I would also agree there really is no "magic bullet" and shot placement reigns supreme.
 
#13
pangris said:
Thoughts on the ELD vs SST, in a Grendel specifically?

I don't have a big enough sample size to have statistically significant opinions. In short, many say the SST is a much better choice but the ELD seem to work well enough on pigs.
Click to expand...
Both are outstanding in the G. I prefer the eld due to better accuracy but have killed with both and wouldn’t hesitate to shoot what you have.
 
#14
SSTs were hot garbage- precision wise- in my grendel(s). Though, that might just be the particular factory load. But, the result turned me back to ELDs which have been magical. But, I have a ladder of TTSX bullets loaded up and waiting for a range day.
 
#15
hafejd30 said:
Shot placement is truly everything with bullets. I wouldn’t recommend the smk for deer. I shot a lot of deer with them. Even the 338 Lapua if it didn’t hit bone would pinhole in and out
Click to expand...

This has been my experience with every OTM/BTHP. Completely devastating when the nearside rib or scapula was hit broadside, and the animal is frequently eviscerated on a frontal chest shot with larger cartridges...but damn if they didn't live a pretty long time when I threaded the shot between ribs.

***********

OP, I would expect relatively similar results on smaller animals being that the same bullet was used in every cartridge.

***********

.223 is more than adequate for deer. I've killed some big, mean boars with the .223 and the 64gr Gold Dot or 62gr Mk 318. Shot placement becomes much more critical, and maximum effective range is limited though IMO.
 
#16
pangris said:
Thoughts on the ELD vs SST, in a Grendel specifically?

I don't have a big enough sample size to have statistically significant opinions. In short, many say the SST is a much better choice but the ELD seem to work well enough on pigs.
Click to expand...

The SST is going to have the interlock ring, and hold together just a little bit better IMO. I've killed somewhere around 50 pigs with the 123gr SST in the Grendel, and it does great. Worked well too on the only buck I've shot with it.

I have a friend that shoots more hogs than I do and used the 123 ELD-M quite a bit in the Grendel. He also cuts them open to analyze what the true terminal ballistic results were...not just looks at entry and exit holes, and feels for broken bones like I do. His words: "The ELD worked very well, but the results were less consistent than the SST." Given that there is no engineered (interlock) design to keep the jacket and core together, I would expect this to be true.

I would expect to lose more body-shot running hogs with the ELD than I would the SST. Stationary opening shots into the CNS would be a wash between the two most likely.
 
#18
hlee said:
SSTs were hot garbage- precision wise- in my grendel(s). Though, that might just be the particular factory load. But, the result turned me back to ELDs which have been magical. But, I have a ladder of TTSX bullets loaded up and waiting for a range day.
Click to expand...
I've been blessed, out of my 12.5 and 20" Noveske barrels - same same accuracy and POA/POI are so close that they are almost interchangable. Not quite, but I could interchange within 150-200 without re-zero'ing.
 
#20
That is one nasty wound.

@hafejd30 yes they destroy so much - watermelons, sweet potatoes - but they don't touch canteloupes. Weird.

Interesting thoughts on the 178 ELDX. I've had two weird situations where it made me hesitate, but it was perfect anyway.

I shot a monster buck at about 90y. He was quartering toward me sniffing a doe. Dropped where he stood. Just collapsed. But there was absolutely zero blood. In fact, to this day (because I took him to the processor/taxidermist) I have no idea where I hit him and where the bullet went. There was definitely not an exit wound. It's like he just exploded internally. The issue is if he did not immediately drop I would not have had any blood trail to track whatsoever - and he was almost a record book buck.

Second situation was similar. Big cull buck was at about 175 yards using the same gun, with the same batch of handloads only 6 days after the buck above was shot. He exploded on the exit wound side but there was no blood for about 15y. Took me a while to find him even though he only ran 25y in thick brush.

Shot placement is definitely key, but the big buck not having an exit wound really threw me off.
 
#21
Eurodriver said:
That is one nasty wound.

@hafejd30 yes they destroy so much - watermelons, sweet potatoes - but they don't touch canteloupes. Weird.

Interesting thoughts on the 178 ELDX. I've had two weird situations where it made me hesitate, but it was perfect anyway.

I shot a monster buck at about 90y. He was quartering toward me sniffing a doe. Dropped where he stood. Just collapsed. But there was absolutely zero blood. In fact, to this day (because I took him to the processor/taxidermist) I have no idea where I hit him and where the bullet went. There was definitely not an exit wound. It's like he just exploded internally. The issue is if he did not immediately drop I would not have had any blood trail to track whatsoever - and he was almost a record book buck.

Second situation was similar. Big cull buck was at about 175 yards using the same gun, with the same batch of handloads only 6 days after the buck above was shot. He exploded on the exit wound side but there was no blood for about 15y. Took me a while to find him even though he only ran 25y in thick brush.

Shot placement is definitely key, but the big buck not having an exit wound really threw me off.
Click to expand...
I run the 178 ELDX at 2600 out of my 308. I’m certainly not going to say every shot is perfect or every shot has a great exit wound or blood trail. But the 178 ELDX have been much more consistent than the rest

The issue we have is most fields were shooting 100-500 yards in. It’s a balance to find a bullet that performs well at that range but also holds the accuracy at those ranges and further. That was our issues with gamekings and sst. They were excellent and did more damage that the ELDX but the accuracy just wasn’t there for longer range. I had a box of sst or Amax I forget that had a OAL base to ogive difference of .017” in a box of 100. Typically the ELDX and Sierra are within .003” or lower. So right off the get go they’re at a accuracy disadvantage
 
#22
hlee said:
View attachment 8474231
This guy ran in excess of 100 yards with this exit wound. Deer are weird. They’ll drop like a stone or run a “country mile” with the same shot. The only thing that reliably anchors them is a CNS hit.
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A deer with a perfect heart shot, which is definitely what that hit, can run for about 15 seconds before dying.

Its natures way of getting him across the creek, over the windfall and into the swamp muck. Adds more to the memory that way
 
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#23
hafejd30 said:
I run the 178 ELDX at 2600 out of my 308. I’m certainly not going to say every shot is perfect or every shot has a great exit wound or blood trail. But the 178 ELDX have been much more consistent than the rest

The issue we have is most fields were shooting 100-500 yards in. It’s a balance to find a bullet that performs well at that range but also holds the accuracy at those ranges and further. That was our issues with gamekings and sst. They were excellent and did more damage that the ELDX but the accuracy just wasn’t there for longer range. I had a box of sst or Amax I forget that had a OAL base to ogive difference of .017” in a box of 100. Typically the ELDX and Sierra are within .003” or lower. So right off the get go they’re at a accuracy disadvantage
Click to expand...

I should have clarified - those two instances with ELDX were the 143gr 6.5mm version. Not 178. My mistake for the confusion.
 
#24
Eurodriver said:
I should have clarified - those two instances with ELDX were the 143gr 6.5mm version. Not 178. My mistake for the confusion.
Click to expand...
I ran the 143 ELDX in 6.5 and one of our shooters runs them in a 260 currently

They’re not even close to as consistent as the 178 ELDX. We run one 300 with 200 ELDX, 3 308’s with 178 ELDX and one 260 with 143 ELDX. All those rifles will be in the field tonight actually

The 143 ELDX was absolutely crap results in the 6.5. Many pin hole in and no exit or pinhole exit. Was like it did its job and couldn’t exit the deer or didn’t expand, exited and no blood trail. We shot that rifle for about a month and lost more deer than the 308’s do all year. The 260 seems better but it also pushes them a bit faster. Mostly headshots now with that rifle. I personally would not recommend 143 ELDX based on my experience

For a deer or two a year or a more open environment they’d be fine. You have more time to track and they do the job. Just lots run and very little blood a majority of the time. When you’re doing eradication and someone else owns the woods they’ll run into I wouldn’t recommend them

Now I’m sure someone will be along to post a pic or two of a great exit wound. We did have some like that as well. Reminded me of using the 142, 168, 175 and 300 SMK matchkings. Hit and grenade or pinhole type performance. Super accurate though. That 260 shot a group the size of a nickel at 300 yards during load testing with them.
 
#25
hafejd30 said:
I ran the 143 ELDX in 6.5 and one of our shooters runs them in a 260 currently

They’re not even close to as consistent as the 178 ELDX. We run one 300 with 200 ELDX, 3 308’s with 178 ELDX and one 260 with 143 ELDX. All those rifles will be in the field tonight actually

The 143 ELDX was absolutely crap results in the 6.5. Many pin hole in and no exit or pinhole exit. Was like it did its job and couldn’t exit the deer or didn’t expand, exited and no blood trail. We shot that rifle for about a month and lost more deer than the 308’s do all year. The 260 seems better but it also pushes them a bit faster. Mostly headshots now with that rifle. I personally would not recommend 143 ELDX based on my experience

For a deer or two a year or a more open environment they’d be fine. You have more time to track and they do the job. Just lots run and very little blood a majority of the time. When you’re doing eradication and someone else owns the woods they’ll run into I wouldn’t recommend them

Now I’m sure someone will be along to post a pic or two of a great exit wound. We did have some like that as well. Reminded me of using the 142, 168, 175 and 300 SMK matchkings. Hit and grenade or pinhole type performance. Super accurate though. That 260 shot a group the size of a nickel at 300 yards during load testing with them.
Click to expand...

Okay, what you're saying mirrors my results as well with the same bullet. Glad to know the 178s are not subject to that.
 
#28
Eurodriver said:
Good to know. Any experience with terminal ascent?
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No. Just with the bullets listed above

We used to shoot just 223 when I started. We were kids and 223 was a budget gun for us. Shot lots with 55 soft point, 50 vmax and fmj for close headshots. Killed a lot of deer with those as well. But mainly headshots

We did try some fusions out of a 270. My shooter lost like 2 or 3 deer out of maybe 5 shot. His shooting or the bullets idk but told him to leave that at home after that performance
 
#29
The only time I tried Federal fusion ammo, I had about a basketball sized "group." Gun shoot cloverleafs with FGMM and Hornady match.
 
#32
#33
I have done animal control off and on for many years. I started with a .308 and 175 SMK’s.
About 1/2 of 1% of solid hits needed to be followed up over 50 yards, shot again or both.
About 20 years ago my .308 barrel was shot out. I tried a .223 AR 18” with 77 SMK’s. Very similar or identical results.
Average range is 193 M and max range is just over 580 meters.
I was a doubter at first with the .5.56 but really see absolutely no difference in the kills.
This is my observation over 55 years of deer shooting, 45 years of guiding hunters who mostly utilize my rifles, and animal control over 40 years.

One other counter intuitive observation .
The large, heavy deer go down faster than the small ones. I think they provide more resistance to the bullet and sustain more damage.

What I’ve stated above are my personal observations. YMMV.
 
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#34
RTH1800 said:
I have done animal control off and on for many years. I started with a .308 and 175 SMK’s.
About 1/2 of 1% of solid hits needed to be followed up over 50 yards, shot again or both.
About 20 years ago my .308 barrel was shot out. I tried a .223 AR 18” with 77 SMK’s. Very similar or identical results.
Average range is 193 M and max range is just over 580 meters.
I was a doubter at first with the .5.56 but really see absolutely no difference in the kills.
This is my observation over 55 years of deer shooting, 45 years of guiding hunters who mostly utilize my rifles, and animal control over 40 years.

One other counter intuitive observation .
The large, heavy deer go down faster than the small ones. I think they provide more resistance to the bullet and sustain more damage.

What I’ve stated above are my personal observations. YMMV.
Click to expand...
This conflicts with everything that Ron Spomer has told me...
 
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#35
Eurodriver said:
plan on using irons? I love the idea of using old guns for hunting but never done it

Does that thing kick?
Click to expand...
Yes, well sort of. I just installed a Lyman "peep" sight on the receiver to hunt with. It does kick a little, partly because it's so light and 270g bullet. My loading so far is 2140fps, but I would like 2300ish. It's a 98 action and should do fine. Will post more pics after re-finish of the stock and install of recoil pad.

Mike
 
#36
hlee said:
View attachment 8474231
This guy ran in excess of 100 yards with this exit wound. Deer are weird. They’ll drop like a stone or run a “country mile” with the same shot. The only thing that reliably anchors them is a CNS hit.
Click to expand...
I had a similar experience years ago. Comparable exit wound (about the size of a fist) no heart that I can recall seeing while field dressing but the critter still ran for 80+ yards regardless. That said- one didn't need to be "Daniel Boone" to track it through the woods, I still remember it was like someone had opened a 5 gallon container of paint and just dumped it through the woods for the 80-100 yards or whatever it ended up being. I was shocked it'd go that far without an intact heart, maybe it just went on pure adrenaline but it sure did run that far.

-LD
 
#39
Eurodriver said:
Over the last few weeks I've been experimenting using the same bullet but different calibers. These are southeastern deer - so already pretty small. Most are yearling bucks or does between 60-100lbs. Ranges were pretty close. All bullets are ELDX - .223, 6.5, 308, 300 WSM. All handloads.

.223 Neck Shot @ 130 yards 80gr ELDX (this was earlier this year)

View attachment 8473325

6.5 CM 143gr ELDX @ 90 & 110y

View attachment 8473328

308 178gr ELDX @ 40 yards & 160 yards

View attachment 8473327

300 WSM 200gr ELDX @ 140y (Both pics are the same deer)

View attachment 8473329
View attachment 8473326

There was definitely no "Magic bullet". They all seemed to perform the same (223 was a neck shot). The sample size is limited so I plan on shooting more with the .223 in the lungs and trying to get similar POIs on deer to get better comparisons. It's hard to tell if a deer is slightly quartering away with thermal especially at 100+ yards.

At these ranges and with these deer, given any rifle, I'd stick to a .223 AR. It's got more rounds, less recoil, and my thermal is more of an AR platform friendly setup (NOX35) than a bolt gun. Neck shots drop them instantly whereas even with the big rifles in the lungs they still run between 25-50y.

I think the 300 WSM is unnecessary and not worth the cost of ammo or recoil. I didn't do an autopsy but they all ran the same distance before dying. If I had to use a bolt gun/bigger rifle caliber I'd stick to the 6.5 CM for the reduced recoil. 300 WSM would be a great longer range/Elk gun but on southeastern whitetail it just seems so excessive.
Click to expand...

Some of those hits are pretty far back. The results are still dead deer, but may explain why you are getting inconsistencies.

I haven't had any 143gr ELD-X pencil through any deer yet, but they do tend to fragment more then I'd like. I've only had 1 pass through on a deer and it was around 400yds. Expansion was great though, made a mess of the lungs.
 
#40
The 143s suck ass. It's a hunting bullet and the whole point of its name, ELD-X, is that the X stands for Xpanding. Although usually, that is not the case. They fragment and break and behave a lot like a varmint bullet. Maybe it's meant to be Xplosive.

Good to know the 308 version has been consistently good. Great post!
 
#41
140 gr Berger VLD Hunting out of a 280Ackley at 175 yards. Exits the barrel at 3250 fps. It sort of staggered around for about 10 seconds with blood literally gushing out of that exit wound. It turned so I never got a good look at the entrance side until I walked over. Small OK deer. I'm culling does on my property.

IMG_6477.JPG
 
#42
If Deer are within range, load up a Remington 7400 Carbine 30-06 w 180gr RN Corelokts. No idea on fps, but will kill deer. Mabe slower roind nose bullet is the ticket at managable range
 
#44
We have the majority of people thinking the 143ELDx was too thin and expanded too much, read as it's too explosive. Now its too tough? To get 1800fps at 900yds means you are running around 3050fps. Seems pretty hot.
 
#45
jbuck88 said:
We have the majority of people thinking the 143ELDx was too thin and expanded too much, read as it's too explosive. Now its too tough? To get 1800fps at 900yds means you are running around 3050fps. Seems pretty hot.
Click to expand...
Perhaps at sea level. Up here where we hunt the DA is often over 8-10K. MV was around 2915
 
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#46
Eurodriver said:
I shot a monster buck at about 90y. He was quartering toward me sniffing a doe. Dropped where he stood. Just collapsed. But there was absolutely zero blood. In fact, to this day (because I took him to the processor/taxidermist) I have no idea where I hit him and where the bullet went. There was definitely not an exit wound. It's like he just exploded internally. The issue is if he did not immediately drop I would not have had any blood trail to track whatsoever - and he was almost a record book buck.
Click to expand...
Had a similar situation last year on a decent sized buck. Hit at around 70-80 yards with a 243win federal/berger 95gr. He jumped twice and crashed. When I walked up to him, no blood at all, he was laying on the entrance side and didn’t see an exit. Internally he was a pool of blood, destroyed heart etc. found the bullet on the offside just under the hide. Held together for the most part, found some lead crumbs and a small piece of jacket when I processed it but for the most part it was one big chunk, expanded well. But the no blood woulda been rough had he ran back in the woods before he fell.
 
#47
So far this year I have been present for 2 deer shot with the 6mm creedmoor. Both were DRT, but I've definitely noticed the lack of energy transfer from the 103gr from the 143gr. A CNS hit and lights out, but even a frontal head shot didn't exit or bust the skull cap.
20241014_130249_resized.jpg
 
Last edited:
#48
Once you dissect it all everything from a 22 short to a 155 mm field gun works fine when used within its limitations. These caliber discussions are basically an American thing caused by marketing.
In other countries, not so much.
Think 7x57, 6.5 Swedish Mauser etc.
 
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