Hunting & Fishing Experimenting w/ different calibers on deer (Graphic)

[RTH1800]

But there is such a thing as a budget and what I can afford.

The next level up would cost me $500-$1,000 more and not really give me that much more performance. The savage 110 is not a bad action, it has almost as much support as the Remington 700 and just about everyone makes pre fit barrels so it is a good platform to customize later.

The idea behind this is to find something affordable that has a good action and already has a decent barrel, not to do a ground up custom build. My intent is to do the entire build for around $1,000-$1,200, to include the chassis and possibly even the optic, but the whole thing, optic included needs to stay under $1,500 no matter what, that’s just the reality of my budget.

More like freedom of choice, not just forced to use whats available.

I don't think folks in other countries are forced to use a specific caliber. They are simply not inundated with BS advertising. They don't choose rifles with any more emotion than they do hammers or shovels. Just tools to do a job.

Choice is wonderful but we have so much disposable income in this country that we get a bit carried away. A well placed bullet kills. A poorly placed one may or may not. It is very, very simple. Animals don't read the headstamp, weigh the projectile, measure the shoulder angel or chronograph the impact velocity.

 

[jbuck88]

Maybe in some cases. In others we can select a bullet and speed we want to use.

The best hunters I know are 30-06 guys. Although one is modern and shooting a 7wsm.

I have a rifle for a few different situations and depending on what game I'm after. My favorite was my old 300h&h. Then went to 300wsm, which is almost identical ballistically.

As my arthritis in my shoulder is getting worse I'm gravitating to less recoil. It's limiting shots I'll take though.

 

[hlee]

Coke v Pepsi.
Chevy v Ford
Sports team affiliation
University affiliation
Family Dollar v Dollar General

Humans are genetically predisposed to form cliques and clans. It’s no wonder there’s so many ardent supporters for various cartridges and chambers.

260 Master race
“2 World Wars”
The whole 30-06 thread dumpster fire

And then you dump an Olympic pool’s worth of ink onto the whole mess.

Americans are spoiled for choice, but we wrap our identities around and in unimportant things.

 

[hlee]

300 h&h? This year, my deer rifle is a 12.5” 6.5 Grendel.

 

[jbuck88]

I loved my 300h&h, my 375h&h too. My middle boy hunts with a Grendel and works just fine.

 

[SCGunner84]

SC rutted up 8 pt, 103 gr eld x 6 creed. 18.5 inch suppressed

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Hunters almost anywhere other than over on RS are the hunting equivalent of the guy at the local gunstore telling you .45 ACP will always be better than 9mm because it "stopped charging japs on Iwo Jima". That doesn't mean SnipersHide isn't great for general long range / precision rifle stuff. But there's a distinct lack of understanding regarding how bullet work / kill things.

Hey, I owe you an apology. I couldn't remember who I lambasted a few months back for suggesting smaller bullets/cartridges for big game than I ever would have attempted. You kept talking about the Rockslide forum, then i made my way over there and checked it out. Honestly, it was life changing. Then "Form" did a half dozen podcasts on "the hunt backcountry podcast", which further rattled my beliefs and sent me into even more research. No bullshit, I bought a lightweight 20" 6cm, and I took it bear bunting last week. I'm going to shoot everything with it until it fails me, if it ever does, which I doubt will ever happen. Anyways, my bad, and thank you for opening that door for me.

 

[hlee]

Hey, I owe you an apology. I couldn't remember who I lambasted a few months back for suggesting smaller bullets/cartridges for big game than I ever would have attempted. You kept talking about the Rockslide forum, then i made my way over there and checked it out. Honestly, it was life changing. Then "Form" did a half dozen podcasts on "the hunt backcountry podcast", which further rattled my beliefs and sent me into even more research. No bullshit, I bought a lightweight 20" 6cm, and I took it bear bunting last week. I'm going to shoot everything with it until it fails me, if it ever does, which I doubt will ever happen. Anyways, my bad, and thank you for opening that door for me.

So, how big was the bear?

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

So, how big was the bear?

Brother I wish I got one. I'm on my 7th year of that quest without success. I've been to wyoming twice for bears and still couldn't connect. I spend 2-4 weeks a year trying to spot and stalk a black bear. I've been close, but haven't been able to put it together yet..

 

[NateVA]

Hey, I owe you an apology. I couldn't remember who I lambasted a few months back for suggesting smaller bullets/cartridges for big game than I ever would have attempted. You kept talking about the Rockslide forum, then i made my way over there and checked it out. Honestly, it was life changing. Then "Form" did a half dozen podcasts on "the hunt backcountry podcast", which further rattled my beliefs and sent me into even more research. No bullshit, I bought a lightweight 20" 6cm, and I took it bear bunting last week. I'm going to shoot everything with it until it fails me, if it ever does, which I doubt will ever happen. Anyways, my bad, and thank you for opening that door for me.

Glad you feel like it was worth your time to check it out. Part of the thing with Form is his tone in one on one interactions on RS ends up making people not want to acknowledge he's right even if he is. Despite that, the concentration on zero-retention for scopes and on how bullets actually kill things is extremely important. And luckily all of this stuff exists in the real world so we have real answers to these questions. It's not an unsolved mystery what your 6CM's bullet of choice will do when it finally hits a black bear as long as it's going above its minimum rated impact velocity.

6CM will do great for black bear. They're not hard to kill (pretty low impact resistance and thin skin) but guys tend to use way tougher bullets than they should because it's still a bear. Then because a Barnes TSX going 3000 fps out of a 338 Remchesterby Magnum zips right through one leaving a glorified arrow hole, those people will say you need a big bore to kill one.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Glad you feel like it was worth your time to check it out. Part of the thing with Form is his tone in one on one interactions on RS ends up making people not want to acknowledge he's right even if he is. Despite that, the concentration on zero-retention for scopes and on how bullets actually kill things is extremely important. And luckily all of this stuff exists in the real world so we have real answers to these questions. It's not an unsolved mystery what your 6CM's bullet of choice will do when it finally hits a black bear as long as it's going above its minimum rated impact velocity.

6CM will do great for black bear. They're not hard to kill (pretty low impact resistance and thin skin) but guys tend to use way tougher bullets than they should because it's still a bear. Then because a Barnes TSX going 3000 fps out of a 338 Remchesterby Magnum zips right through one leaving a glorified arrow hole, those people will say you need a big bore to kill one.

The evidence is clear if someone wants to read it. In all honesty, once you digest it and can manually dispel a lifetime of fudd lore, it's pretty intuitive. I was always the guy that felt like there was no such thing as overkill. If a little is good, a lot is gooder, but I've seen the error of my ways. Thanks

 

[wvfarrier]

My buddy killed this one in NC using a Winchester 1892 in 357 mag. I handloaded the round for him. It a 10% above max "book" charge of Lil Gun using a 200 grain Lehigh Defense Controlled Choas (meant for a 360 Buckmaster I think). The load chrono's 2340fps from his 20" barrel. No pressure signs but I did anneal the brass. It was around 65 yards I think.

 

[nockhunter]

My buddy killed this one in NC using a Winchester 1892 in 357 mag. I handloaded the round for him. It a 10% above max "book" charge of Lil Gun using a 200 grain Lehigh Defense Controlled Choas (meant for a 360 Buckmaster I think). The load chrono's 2340fps from his 20" barrel. No pressure signs but I did anneal the brass. It was around 65 yards I think.

Thats 35Rem ballistics, seems way high for 357Mag even in a rifle.

Mike

 

[hlee]

Thats 35Rem ballistics, seems way high for 357Mag even in a rifle.

Mike

Reason not to shoot anyone else’s reloads…

 

[cas6969]

No pressure signs

Yeah, no pressure testing equipment will tend to do that.

 

[hlee]

Yeah, no pressure testing equipment will tend to do that.

It has been posted elsewhere, many would be shocked at the actual pressure of their “safe loads…”

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

If I still have all of my teeth after shooting a 5 shot string, the pressure is safe.

 

[wvfarrier]

Yeah, no pressure testing equipment will tend to do that.

I have shot several dozen with zero issues. I am not advocating anyone use someone else's load data but we worked these up slowly. No sticky/stiff lever work so stretched casings or flattened primers. Good enough for me.

 

[Whiplash6.5]

6 Creed 20” 108 Eld-m. Ran 30 yard and totally destroyed the front shoulder / vitals but did not leave a big blood trail. Will be switching to a different bullet (95gr Berger classic hunters) next season.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

6 Creed 20” 108 Eld-m. Ran 30 yard and totally destroyed the front shoulder / vitals but did not leave a big blood trail. Will be switching to a different bullet (95gr Berger classic hunters) next season.View attachment 8561055

Bullet performed perfectly..

I will be changing bullets immediately!!!

Mmmmmk..

 

[Whiplash6.5]

Bullet performed perfectly..

I will be changing bullets immediately!!!

Mmmmmk..

Not sure how many deer you have tracked but if it were to run 300-400 yards through brush it would be hard if not impossible to track with a small / inconsistent blood trail.
Mmmk

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Not sure how many deer you have tracked but if it were to run 300-400 yards through brush it would be hard if not impossible to track with a small / inconsistent blood trail.
Mmmk

I've killed many hundreds, nearing or in excess of a thousand. I've never seen a boom flop and thought "damn, we've got a problem here".

 

[NateVA]

if it were to run 300-400 yards through brush

Why would it do that when yours ran 30 with "totally destroyed vitals/shoulder"?

 

[jbuck88]

I sure have mixed feeling about smaller calibers. Playing with a 6mm Creedmoor this hunting season. It's killed everything I've shot at, but I passed on a off angle shot on a elk feeling it was to big of a risk on not penetrating enough if it hit bone.

I was lucky and got another shot at one perfectly broadside and the 103gr eldx did its job. Must have had a pretty violent expansion breaking the two ribs on either side on the entrance hole. Stopped in the lungs. 100% convinced that the bullet would splash if I hit a shoulder bone or glance off if shooting at an angle and it hits bone.

Elk acted like nothing happened, which isn't uncommon, walked off 20yds and tipped over. Blood trail was puddles so was bleeding lots.

 

[Emerson0311]

I sure have mixed feeling about smaller calibers. Playing with a 6mm Creedmoor this hunting season. It's killed everything I've shot at, but I passed on a off angle shot on a elk feeling it was to big of a risk on not penetrating enough if it hit bone.

I was lucky and got another shot at one perfectly broadside and the 103gr eldx did its job. Must have had a pretty violent expansion breaking the two ribs on either side on the entrance hole. Stopped in the lungs. 100% convinced that the bullet would splash if I hit a shoulder bone or glance off if shooting at an angle and it hits bone.

Elk acted like nothing happened, which isn't uncommon, walked off 20yds and tipped over. Blood trail was puddles so was bleeding lots.



View attachment 8561268View attachment 8561269View attachment 8561270

Interesting. I am debating whether or not to make my light Tikka 6.5CM build into my hunt everything rifle. Lots of elk around here.

 

[jbuck88]

Think I'm going back to the 6.5cm if elk might be on the table.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Bullets don't splash on animals. That's a myth. If I'm wrong, show me a solw motion video. It doesn't exist. Think about the physics of what you're saying. A pointed metal object going 2,xxxx fps at impact doesn't go through skin, fat and flesh? Not a real thing. When people claim that happened, they either made a bad shot or missed.

 

[jbuck88]

Maybe splash is the wrong word. Not penetrating after breaking up on a large bone is what I mean when I say splash.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Maybe splash is the wrong word. Not penetrating after breaking up on a large bone is what I mean when I say splash.

I've recently changed my entire outlook on this subject. Coincidentally @NateVA here challenged my beliefs and then directed me to rockslide to a years old post with hundreds of elk kills with 6mm cm and smaller. Guys are killing everything that walks with a .223. The bones in a deer or an elk are nothing, like nothing at all to a bullet. Years ago I was Mr 300wm for everything, then I calmed a little. Now I'm 6cm for everything. The "hunt backcountry" podcast is excellent. They did a series of about 6 podcasts with a guy known as "form" that might open your eyes, as it did mine. Then the rockslide thread(s) with thousands of necropsy photos will prove what he's saying. Don't take anyone's word for it, but if you'll do the research, you'll probably realize what many of us are realizing now. It's hard to get past a century+ of fuddlore, at least it was for me, but the data is very clear if you want to take a look.

 

[jbuck88]

Sure. I get it. A 22lr will kill a grizzly bear. Doesn't mean that there aren't better tools for the job.

 

[jbuck88]

People look for conformation bias. People are much more likely to report success then failure. People are more likely to disregard failure when they don't want to see it.

It's hard to discuss logic when you are wearing blinders.

I shot a deer that didn't exit the skull. Tell me how that deer skull is any tougher from a elk shoulder bone. And how the bullet stopped within ~6" inside a deer brain, but will fully reach the vitals after hitting a elk shoulder bone.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

People look for conformation bias. People are much more likely to report success then failure. People are more likely to disregard failure when they don't want to see it.

It's hard to discuss logic when you are wearing blinders.

I shot a deer that didn't exit the skull. Tell me how that deer skull is any tougher from a elk shoulder bone. And how the bullet stopped within ~6" inside a deer brain, but will fully reach the vitals after hitting a elk shoulder bone.

Come back to us when you've done the research. I was you for the last 35 years, until about 90 days ago.

The fact that you're talking about me and blinders and confirmation bias while disregarding my appeal to data is the definition of hypocrisy..

 

[jbuck88]

Did you miss the fact I'm using a 6mm right now to gain first hand knowledge? I'm trying it to see how it works for better or worse. I've used everything else and have a decent knowledge of how animals die.

So blinders, or not, I'm testing it and posting my results and observations.

 

[jbuck88]

I'm not suggesting you are lying about your success on game. I'm just saying I'm taking what I read on the internet with a huge grain of salt.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

I'm not suggesting you are lying about your success on game. I'm just saying I'm taking what I read on the internet with a huge grain of salt.

Take whatever grain of salt you want to. You're arguing with yourself. I'm simply pointing you to the evidence, you can choose to look into it or not, I'll be asleep by 9:30 tonight either way. I swear, I was saying the same things you were 90 days ago. I literally understand why you're saying what you're saying. Good luck out there..

 

[thejeep]

55gr game king .223
50yd shot jogged 20yds lots of blood

 

[SCGunner84]

Killed my second buck with my 18.5 inch 6 creed. 103 gr eldx no exit but did drop in its tracks. Shot was 50-70 yard range. Definitely would like to hear what others use in the 6 creed. 2 clean kills for me, first ran about 70 yards and the second drt, I’m just not a fan of not having an exit. I’d love to hear any suggestions, thanks.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Killed my second buck with my 18.5 inch 6 creed. 103 gr eldx no exit but did drop in its tracks. Shot was 50-70 yard range. Definitely would like to hear what others use in the 6 creed. 2 clean kills for me, first ran about 70 yards and the second drt, I’m just not a fan of not having an exit. I’d love to hear any suggestions, thanks.

Shot a small whitetail last night with the 103 eld-x at 30y out of an 18" 6mm arc. 2550 mv. The results were devastating. It was kinda shocking, I've killed a lot of deer, but I've never seen a bullet blow intestines through their hind quarter. It was a nearly straight on shot, and I held an inch or two from where I should have, but make no mistake, that 103gr eld-x is a killer. Needless to say, this deer also took no steps.

 

[Potsy]

From back in 2021. Probably my biggest bodied deer. If it’d been opening of muzzleloader 2 weeks earlier, I’m not sure I could’ve drug him up into the back of the truck. Must’ve dressed close to 200 lbs. Didn’t weigh him, but I’ve loaded 170lb deer, and he was definitely bigger.

#1 7x57 175 Sierra Game King at 2,500. He was around 120 yards away. No exit. Had to look for the entrance. Right behind the shoulder. Ran about 60 yards. Lungs were liquid. Most of the heart gone. Front half of both sides of the ribcage was purple. Biggest bodied AND most trashed on the inside.
FWIW….

 

[clark33]

My 21" 6 creed with the 108 eldm has taken me a handful of mature mule deer and a few antelope. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on elk...if I can ever draw a damn elk tag.

 

[wvfarrier]

308 Win, 195 grain TMK, 527 yards.

 

[nockhunter]

From back in 2021. Probably my biggest bodied deer. If it’d been opening of muzzleloader 2 weeks earlier, I’m not sure I could’ve drug him up into the back of the truck. Must’ve dressed close to 200 lbs. Didn’t weigh him, but I’ve loaded 170lb deer, and he was definitely bigger.

#1 7x57 175 Sierra Game King at 2,500. He was around 120 yards away. No exit. Had to look for the entrance. Right behind the shoulder. Ran about 60 yards. Lungs were liquid. Most of the heart gone. Front half of both sides of the ribcage was purple. Biggest bodied AND most trashed on the inside.
FWIW….View attachment 8572424

Very nice deer, I love the rifle and cartridge.

Mike

 

[Potsy]

Thanks Nockhunter!

Years ago, like, ‘99, John Barsness had a pic of a 1A 7x57 leaning against a pack in an issue of Rifle Magazine that just spoke to me. Ross Seyfried had already tuned me in to the cartridge. I had to have one. Finally saved enough scratch to buy one and stick a Monarch 2-7 on it (around 2002). I like heavies in the rifle because I’ve got a .25-06 and a .45-70 (another #1) and I want it to be a “tweener”.

I don’t want to hijack the thread, but the 1a 7x57 is a sleeper of a killing rifle if you like to hunt with pretty guns (when it’s not raining ). I need to play with the fact that is has an 8.5” twist and no mag constraints…..

 

[LeadBreakfast]

I'll preface this by stating I'm not on Rokslide but read the whole small caliber thread a couple of years ago. The tone/attitude of that forum leaves much to be desired but there i s good information there, I'll leave the comments at that.

Anyways, after reading that and seeing the long range performance of handloaded 77gr TMKs in my 20" AR out to 1k yards I thought about it a bit and decided there was no reason it wasn't a perfectly capable whitetail cartridge. Unfortunately, the area I hunt in does not allow rifles...but AR pistols are legal...

I took out the chrono, ran a few of my handloads through it, and determined that the velocity from a 10.5" AR pistol was plenty sufficient for effective expansion out to about 300yards, give or take (per Sierra's word on expansion threshold velocity). With no intent to ever shoot too far at a deer, I concluded that I'd even be fine leaving a red dot on the pistol. In the past two years I've shot at three deer with that combination and performance on all three was outstanding. One ten point buck, a big 8, and a doe. One caught the bullet under the far side hide and allowed me to recover it. Weight retention was excellent considering the explosive expansion (bullet weighed 58.1gr after recovery).

I'm fully sold on the performance of the 77gr TMK and will likely put some glass on it before next season to reach out a bit further (but still within the expansion threshold, of course).

I should add, the load was originally developed to be my main coyote load for night hunting...it kills the hell out of yotes (naturally). Two years ago I hit one low chest around the brisket headed towards me and it quite literally unzipped his chest cavity as he tumbled. (Not the one pictured but this is representative of what they often look like.)

Damage pics are from two different deer, one is the buck pictured laying, the other was from the doe. The buck on the wall had no lungs remaining at all, ran perhaps 40 yards total and the front half of his entrails spilled like soup when I opened him up. Other two went 10 yards and 30ish yards.

Plenty more pics or if anyone has any questions on using that particular projectile just let me know, it is easily my favorite. 224 projectile.

 

[gopherslayer]

No pics of gore because I was working against coyotes and I was by myself.

Used a 223 and 75gr SBBT, Hornydaddy black tips, over some Benchmark. I need to kill a couple of more deer before I’m sold on them for deer like the 77TMK.

220 yards frontal neck shot no exit. Fat doe

140 yards quartering away. Hit shoulder and exited below the arm pit. Rib cage was mangled in the brisket area. Another chunk

 

[232593]

I'll preface this by stating I'm not on Rokslide but read the whole small caliber thread a couple of years ago. The tone/attitude of that forum leaves much to be desired but there i s good information there, I'll leave the comments at that.

Anyways, after reading that and seeing the long range performance of handloaded 77gr TMKs in my 20" AR out to 1k yards I thought about it a bit and decided there was no reason it wasn't a perfectly capable whitetail cartridge. Unfortunately, the area I hunt in does not allow rifles...but AR pistols are legal...

I took out the chrono, ran a few of my handloads through it, and determined that the velocity from a 10.5" AR pistol was plenty sufficient for effective expansion out to about 300yards, give or take (per Sierra's word on expansion threshold velocity). With no intent to ever shoot too far at a deer, I concluded that I'd even be fine leaving a red dot on the pistol. In the past two years I've shot at three deer with that combination and performance on all three was outstanding. One ten point buck, a big 8, and a doe. One caught the bullet under the far side hide and allowed me to recover it. Weight retention was excellent considering the explosive expansion (bullet weighed 58.1gr after recovery).

I'm fully sold on the performance of the 77gr TMK and will likely put some glass on it before next season to reach out a bit further (but still within the expansion threshold, of course).

I should add, the load was originally developed to be my main coyote load for night hunting...it kills the hell out of yotes (naturally). Two years ago I hit one low chest around the brisket headed towards me and it quite literally unzipped his chest cavity as he tumbled. (Not the one pictured but this is representative of what they often look like.)

Damage pics are from two different deer, one is the buck pictured laying, the other was from the doe. The buck on the wall had no lungs remaining at all, ran perhaps 40 yards total and the front half of his entrails spilled like soup when I opened him up. Other two went 10 yards and 30ish yards.

Plenty more pics or if anyone has any questions on using that particular projectile just let me know, it is easily my favorite. 224 projectile.

What was the distance you shot those deer at and what was the MV of your load?

 

[232593]

I'll preface this by stating I'm not on Rokslide but read the whole small caliber thread a couple of years ago. The tone/attitude of that forum leaves much to be desired but there i s good information there, I'll leave the comments at that.

Anyways, after reading that and seeing the long range performance of handloaded 77gr TMKs in my 20" AR out to 1k yards I thought about it a bit and decided there was no reason it wasn't a perfectly capable whitetail cartridge. Unfortunately, the area I hunt in does not allow rifles...but AR pistols are legal...

I took out the chrono, ran a few of my handloads through it, and determined that the velocity from a 10.5" AR pistol was plenty sufficient for effective expansion out to about 300yards, give or take (per Sierra's word on expansion threshold velocity). With no intent to ever shoot too far at a deer, I concluded that I'd even be fine leaving a red dot on the pistol. In the past two years I've shot at three deer with that combination and performance on all three was outstanding. One ten point buck, a big 8, and a doe. One caught the bullet under the far side hide and allowed me to recover it. Weight retention was excellent considering the explosive expansion (bullet weighed 58.1gr after recovery).

I'm fully sold on the performance of the 77gr TMK and will likely put some glass on it before next season to reach out a bit further (but still within the expansion threshold, of course).

I should add, the load was originally developed to be my main coyote load for night hunting...it kills the hell out of yotes (naturally). Two years ago I hit one low chest around the brisket headed towards me and it quite literally unzipped his chest cavity as he tumbled. (Not the one pictured but this is representative of what they often look like.)

Damage pics are from two different deer, one is the buck pictured laying, the other was from the doe. The buck on the wall had no lungs remaining at all, ran perhaps 40 yards total and the front half of his entrails spilled like soup when I opened him up. Other two went 10 yards and 30ish yards.

Plenty more pics or if anyone has any questions on using that particular projectile just let me know, it is easily my favorite. 224 projectile.

@BurtG might be an answer to the question you asked here:

Best 10.3” food ?

77tmk , BH 50 tsx optimized ? Or Gold dot ?

www.snipershide.com

And an affirmation of my buying a shit ton of TMKs

 

[BurtG]

I've killed 2 deer with a 6.5cm 143 eldx.

ELDM works better

 

[jbuck88]

ELDM works better

Better how?

 

[BurtG]

Better how?

More accurate
More deadly

No one uses X for killing stuff anymore