What Percentile of Shooters Can Shoot 1 MOA?

#101
Ronws said:
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Challenge accepted. I had some custom poker chips made and already inviting some people out and offering a cash prize.....


I started a little filming as well. One guy said he would do it sunday.....then he said "I get to zero my rifle first right?" So it may not happen THIS sunday but it's gonna happen.
 

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#102
diggler1833 said:
Huge difference between shooting sub-MOA prone, and then again under field conditions. Just like shooting sub-minute at 100 vs 500+. Then there is sub-MOA for 3-5 shots vs 10 shots plus. Then there is repeating the results over and over. Etc...etc...

I saw that Backfire dude make his claims the other day about how difficult it is to shoot MOA and put all of the shots in a 1" circle at 100 yards. I can't say I agree with him...but he certainly had a lot of help with the quality of shooters showing up and printing shotgun patterns that were several inches away from POA.

Tried a modified version of that MOA challenge myself with 10 shots at 300 yards twice off of a bipod and rear bag. Now I need to try it again standing/sitting off a bag...I already know that I am going to get humbled pretty quickly. That's why we practice though. I'm pretty confident on my coyote killing abilities at 300 off of a bag and standing, the piles of bones below the house is a testimony. Hitting a 1 MOA target consistently though at that range - not happening.

Time for a shameless plug. Pardon the narcissism of recording myself shooting. Practicing by yourself - video is the best way to critique what you're doing wrong. It's pretty apparent that I need to improve my two-stage trigger manipulation. This is the only 2S I have on a bolt gun. Excuses, excuses...I'm way too fast after hitting the wall of that second stage.

Target on the video card itself is 4.25" at 655 for 5 shots. Some dumbass didn't align their Triggercam to record it worth a damn though.

Click to expand...

Oh, yes! I've seen that video myself, and when I saw the title on the channel, about not managing to shoot 1 MOA I was like "WTF?!? Sure you can!" but then the video is about shooting 1 MOA, 5-shot groups with hunting rifles (i.e.: standard stock & pencil barrel) and factory ammo, and I see his point.

This kind of rifles can usually print very tight 3-shot groups, but on a 5 shot group the thin barrel will usually overheat and the group opens up, which I believe it's what happened, and I believe the message there is how accuracy claims from manufacturers should be taken into context.
1 MOA 3-shot group is one thing, 5 or 10 shot groups, 1 MOA another.

Anyway, I'm intrigued by the concept. I've recently acquired an interesting 7x64 hunting bolt action (a Sabatti Rover with the old 2 tenon action) I got for no other reason that it's an old rifle manufactured the old way: full case hardened receiver, jewelled bolt, premium grade wooden stock, plus it was on discount and got it for a ludicrous price.
I've found an old Swarovsky scope with blued steel tube to fit.

As soon as I can find the rings I want for this build (round, case hardened steel rings) I'll set up the scope and try some 5 or 10 shot groups, and see what happens. The tricky part will be finding match ammo, vs hunting ammo you commonly find in this chambering.
As of now, I just bought a box of soft point RWS red box hunting cartridges (just because on principle I don't like having a gun and no ammo to go with it) but I do not expect 1 MOA accuracy from that ammo, even shooting at 50 yards... 😅
 
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#103
And to be fair, some rifle manufacturers who give accuracy claims are up front about limiting the shots. For example, Thompson Center Arms claim a 1 MOA group on the first 3 shot with quality factory ammo. And have lived up to that claim. They did not say 5 or 10 shots, but 3. So, Jim, at Backfire, is creating click bait.

I agree that pencil thin hunting barrels are going to open up after about 3 or 4 shots. Most hunters are not taking more than 2 in a row, 3 at most. If you have taken 3 shots and not brought down the game, something is wrong and you need to stop.

Jim would have been more honest if he asked if factory hunting rifles live up to the claims of accuracy given?

Some companies do not give specifics. Mossberg, for example, does not give a 1 MOA guarantee. They say a good shooter with quality ammo will get acceptable results. I have seen a few Mossbergs give 1 MOA or better for at least 3 shots.

Depends on the job of the rifle. So, yeah, PRS with extended strings of fire, one needs a stouter contour, maybe even medium bull barrel, which adds weight, opposed to the general conception of a hunting rifle starting out at 7 lbs or less.
 
#104
Now I am seeing an interesting thing. I was invited by Polenar Tactical to shoot their 10 shot 1 moa challenge and folks are now saying only 10 shots counts as a group.

Also people are saying that lots of keyboard commandos claim they can shoot 1 moa with old surplus rifles and that is where all this comes from????? I personally have never seen someone claim an old POS can shoot well. Every time I have seen someone claim to shoot well, it is always with a good rig and good ammo.

Are there people really claiming they can shoot amazing groups with grandad's old deer rifle?
 
#106
gunslinger said:
Oh, yes! I've seen that video myself, and when I saw the title on the channel, about not managing to shoot 1 MOA I was like "WTF?!? Sure you can!" but then the video is about shooting 1 MOA, 5-shot groups with hunting rifles (i.e.: standard stock & pencil barrel) and factory ammo, and I see his point.

This kind of rifles can usually print very tight 3-shot groups, but on a 5 shot group the thin barrel will usually overheat and the group opens up, which I believe it's what happened, and I believe the message there is how accuracy claims from manufacturers should be taken into context.
1 MOA 3-shot group is one thing, 5 or 10 shot groups, 1 MOA another.

Anyway, I'm intrigued by the concept. I've recently acquired an interesting 7x64 hunting bolt action (a Sabatti Rover with the old 2 tenon action) I got for no other reason that it's an old rifle manufactured the old way: full case hardened receiver, jewelled bolt, premium grade wooden stock, plus it was on discount and got it for a ludicrous price.
I've found an old Swarovsky scope with blued steel tube to fit.

As soon as I can find the rings I want for this build (round, case hardened steel rings) I'll set up the scope and try some 5 or 10 shot groups, and see what happens. The tricky part will be finding match ammo, vs hunting ammo you commonly find in this chambering.
As of now, I just bought a box of soft point RWS red box hunting cartridges (just because on principle I don't like having a gun and no ammo to go with it) but I do not expect 1 MOA accuracy from that ammo, even shooting at 50 yards... 😅
Click to expand...
TC Arms with the Compass and Venture lines have a factory claim of 1 MOA on the first three shots. Not five, ten, or twenty.

And in my experience, they deliver that. In fact, first two shots out of mine without sighting in and not even the best ammo for the Compass II that I have, factory poly stock was .54 inches on the first two shots. And it has maintained that moving to a chassis. It is the rifle in my avatar, a Compass II in .308 with a 2 lb 3 oz factory trigger.

It is doing the job for which it was intended. Hunting deer. And in hunting, especially deer, I am going to get all fudd and say that you should not be shooting more than 3 times at a deer. If you are not hitting the deer by the third shot, stop shooting and fix whatever the problem is. and mke sure, factory promise or not, that you can shoot 1 MOA with that rifle for the 3 shots.

But, would it be a good PRS rifle? Probably not because that is not what it is designed for. It is a straight barrel rather than a taper.

It is also the cheapest rifle I have. It cost 405 + tx plus transfer fee of 35. I think the chassis cost as much as the rifle did. And yeah, I went backwards. I could have simply bought a more expensive rifle that would have a stock I like. But I like chassis, so, this is still a budget build for me.

Can a person shoot 1 MOA for 5 shots in a factory hunting rifle with ammo off the shelf? Possibly. But one take-away is to learn the limits of the rifle, ammo, and shooter and the needs for harvesting the game and let that decide the range and ethics of the shot.
 
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#107
I've shot some good groups, I've shot some great groups. But basically what I really worry about is 1 minute of steel groups.

After I get a rifle dialed in forget punching holes in paper. Plus, when I'm on the move, not the least bit worried about how tight the group of shots are on the steel Prairie Dog or steel coke can or steel silhouette, tis a game and as long as they are on the steel, I am happy. When they are on steel, I can see what correction needs to be made, the wonders of MIL Christmas tree reticle's makes it easy as can be to get it right.
 
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#110
tinker said:
Now I am seeing an interesting thing. I was invited by Polenar Tactical to shoot their 10 shot 1 moa challenge and folks are now saying only 10 shots counts as a group.

Also people are saying that lots of keyboard commandos claim they can shoot 1 moa with old surplus rifles and that is where all this comes from????? I personally have never seen someone claim an old POS can shoot well. Every time I have seen someone claim to shoot well, it is always with a good rig and good ammo.

Are there people really claiming they can shoot amazing groups with grandad's old deer rifle?
Click to expand...
Well, if SH is any indication, every rifle worth owning shoots sub moa, and only sub moa rifles are worth owning. And, any rifle that shoots above moa is garbage tier larper trash that you should feel ashamed to own. I mean fat chicks and mopeds have their places. MOA+ rifles should be melted to slag and dumped in the ocean, so as to not contaminate future guns.

Well, that’s what I’ve learned from SH anyway.
 
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#111
hlee said:
Well, if SH is any indication, every rifle worth owning shoots sub moa, and only sub moa rifles are worth owning. And, any rifle that shoots above moa is garbage tier larper trash that you should feel ashamed to own. I mean fat chicks and mopeds have their places. MOA+ rifles should be melted to slag and dumped in the ocean, so as to not contaminate future guns.

Well, that’s what I’ve learned from SH anyway.
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That's always been my philosophy. I think that's why I like this place so much. It just feels like home. 😂
 
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#112
hlee said:
Well, if SH is any indication, every rifle worth owning shoots sub moa, and only sub moa rifles are worth owning. And, any rifle that shoots above moa is garbage tier larper trash that you should feel ashamed to own. I mean fat chicks and mopeds have their places. MOA+ rifles should be melted to slag and dumped in the ocean, so as to not contaminate future guns.

Well, that’s what I’ve learned from SH anyway.
Click to expand...
Well to numbers shooters there are different levels of dead, or out of the fight.
 
#115
hlee said:
Well, if SH is any indication, every rifle worth owning shoots sub moa, and only sub moa rifles are worth owning. And, any rifle that shoots above moa is garbage tier larper trash that you should feel ashamed to own. I mean fat chicks and mopeds have their places. MOA+ rifles should be melted to slag and dumped in the ocean, so as to not contaminate future guns.

Well, that’s what I’ve learned from SH anyway.
Click to expand...
I’m happy with 3 1/2 moa groups because, well, that’s about 1 mil.
 
#117
XP1K said:
That's always been my philosophy. I think that's why I like this place so much. It just feels like home. 😂
Click to expand...
It's the verbal abuse I get here that makes it feel like home for me. The crew I worked with 20 something years ago was nothing but a roast fest all damn day long. Anything you said would be used against you. And if you didn't say anything, we would make up something and roast you on that.

And practical jokes. This one guy thought he was tough throwing drinks on guys. So, one day, someone put some tie wraps on his driveshaft.

Leaving work sooner than the rest of us, you could hear the whack whack whack.

He got out and looked underneath. And then promised to kick all of our asses.

Ah, good times.

Thanks for the memories....
 
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#118
Ronws said:
It's the verbal abuse I get here that makes it feel like home for me. The crew I worked with 20 something years ago was nothing but a roast fest all damn day long. Anything you said would be used against you. And if you didn't say anything, we would make up something and roast you on that.

And practical jokes. This one guy thought he was tough throwing drinks on guys. So, one day, someone put some tie wraps on his driveshaft.

Leaving work sooner than the rest of us, you could hear the whack whack whack.

He got out and looked underneath. And then promised to kick all of our asses.

Ah, good times.

Thanks for the memories....
Click to expand...
Ha, I worked with a bunch of guys one time that were into the pranks. One guy got a half a bag of zipties on the serpentine belt in his truck.
Another got a ¾" nut taped to his driveshaft.
We tied a full roll of barricade tape to the superintendents truck one time. He was driving down the road with a 300' red streamer behind his truck.
One guy got a fire extinguisher emptied in his office.
It just kept getting worse but nobody was willing to give in. Eventually we all got shipped off to separate crews or moved on other places. I've had some fun working construction. I'm not much into that stuff anymore though.
The crew I work with now likes to throw water bottles on each other.
 
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#123
hlee said:
Well, if SH is any indication, every rifle worth owning shoots sub moa, and only sub moa rifles are worth owning. And, any rifle that shoots above moa is garbage tier larper trash that you should feel ashamed to own. I mean fat chicks and mopeds have their places. MOA+ rifles should be melted to slag and dumped in the ocean, so as to not contaminate future guns.

Well, that’s what I’ve learned from SH anyway.
Click to expand...
Honestly I have never really seen guns that shoot poorly except once I shota factory savage axis in 6.5cm....that one was bad. It shot about 1 1/2 moa. Unless It's a cheap cheap gun, I really don't get how they could be shot poorly unless using the wrong weight ammo (like 77 gr 223 in a 12 twist barrel etc etc).
 
#125
Dead Eye Dick said:
I've shot some good groups, I've shot some great groups. But basically what I really worry about is 1 minute of steel groups.

After I get a rifle dialed in forget punching holes in paper. Plus, when I'm on the move, not the least bit worried about how tight the group of shots are on the steel Prairie Dog or steel coke can or steel silhouette, tis a game and as long as they are on the steel, I am happy. When they are on steel, I can see what correction needs to be made, the wonders of MIL Christmas tree reticle's makes it easy as can be to get it right.
Click to expand...
Damn, I see you. I really, really hate shooting for grouping. It's the opposite of relaxing and when I get a bad group it pisses me off... Yet I have to do it for several reasons. Steel is fun.😁
 
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