Ah, good question. I just bought it used. Previous seller suggested he shot less than 250. I've only put about 30 rounds through it so far. It seemed pretty consistent at 100 yards (group was pretty tight), so I think it's in good condition. I am a rookie though. I am maxing out my 25 power scope at each distance, though my friend suggests this is poor form and will make it tougher to shoot further down the road.
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What can cause a bullet to impact higher, when moving back to 200 yards, from 100 yards?
- Thread starter yo-yo
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Ok, thanks. and stop listening to your friend, listen to the data AFTER you have ALL the data...
What scope are you using? FFP or SFP?
Also, as a new shooter, just do ONE thing at a time. Slow your roll, keep it simple. Lets just focus on zeroing the rifle for now nothing else... We need to know that the scope and rifle are where it needs to be to give you an accurate starting point to eventually start working on other things later on.
What scope are you using? FFP or SFP?
Also, as a new shooter, just do ONE thing at a time. Slow your roll, keep it simple. Lets just focus on zeroing the rifle for now nothing else... We need to know that the scope and rifle are where it needs to be to give you an accurate starting point to eventually start working on other things later on.
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That was from ballistic AE. And it takes shot angle. I would forget shot angle for now, unless it’s a couple hundred feet difference in elevation.
For a simpler method I prefer the Gravity Ballistic app. It’s $5. There is a thread and video about it.
You will get it. I look forward to an update after you shoot again and get some pics.
As for elevation change, just look at the angle. I’m sure your phone has a level to show this. If not, download 4DOF (it’s free) and it has that function (yeah, using the function already built into your phone). If you aren’t shoot almost straight up at a mountain goat, there won’t be any significant impact at 200 yards.
Best of luck.
Ok. Sounds good. I'm using a Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25x56. It's FFP. I also used the back of the scope (objective lens) to measure to the bolt, and do the math to get my scope height. I think it's pretty close. There must be a better way to measure that though.
Also, I have 20 MOA cant on the pic rail and 20 MOA in the scope mount. Will that affect my actual scope height at the end of the 26" barrel?
Ok, great. Thanks for all the info. I'll look into those programs too!That was from ballistic AE. And it takes shot angle. I would forget shot angle for now, unless it’s a couple hundred feet difference in elevation.
For a simpler method I prefer the Gravity Ballistic app. It’s $5. There is a thread and video about it.
You will get it. I look forward to an update after you shoot again and get some pics.
I'm going to try and go out again today, and see what happens. I'll get some pics too!
Thanks!
That sounds like the range that I'm a member at.
We have targets at the 50Y , 100Y, 200Y, 300Y, and 400Y
I shot the targets at the 100 and 200 and everything looks good.
I shoot the target at the 300 and I'm way off in elevation.
I shoot the 400Y and I'm dead on again.
I pull out the laser rangefinder to discover that the 300Y target is actually at 300M or 328Y
There is a 3" difference in drop (0.2mil) between 300y and 328Y.
For $20 a year membership 365 days a year, and almost nobody ever there I can't complain.
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Interesting. What distance were you zero'd at?That sounds like the range that I'm a member at.
We have targets at the 50Y , 100Y, 200Y, 300Y, and 400Y
I shot the targets at the 100 and 200 and everything looks good.
I shoot the target at the 300 and I'm way off in elevation.
I shoot the 400Y and I'm dead on again.
I pull out the laser rangefinder to discover that the 300Y target is actually at 300M or 328Y
There is a 3" difference in drop (0.2mil) between 300y and 328Y.
For $20 a year membership 365 days a year, and almost nobody ever there I can't complain.
Does anyone know if there is a ballistics calculator/data program that will automatically graph out the data like this? I use the JBM Ballistics for the data here, but I had to put the data into MS Excel and graph it manually. I would like to find a program that has this feature built in. It's helping to visualize the actual path of the bullet. In this case, it's surprising the path of the bullet doesn't crest the line of sight more than once, but rather is tangent to the line of sight.That was from ballistic AE. And it takes shot angle. I would forget shot angle for now, unless it’s a couple hundred feet difference in elevation.
For a simpler method I prefer the Gravity Ballistic app. It’s $5. There is a thread and video about it.
You will get it. I look forward to an update after you shoot again and get some pics.
Attachments
I don’t know much about that, I’ll post a couple pics that are from ballistic ae, but they are features i never use. Might be helpful to conceptualize what’s happening.
Just keep in mind most of them are not to scale, like in your graph the height to distance is many many times out of scale. But it gives a good visual.
This is helpful
This is for what? I don’t know.
Good point. It is NOT to scale. I am still having enough trouble putting axis labels on this chart. Seems every time Microsoft releases a new version of this software, they change things (trying to make them easier I imagine), and then I can't find anything in it.
.It's tough to display a few inches in elevation change over the course of a couple hundred yards.
Can you change that Trajectory data to 2-dimensional? That might help. Also, change the graph to only display the data over 200 yards.
What I want to display is all the difference scenarios that were in the video that was posted earlier in the thread.
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This is the best way for me to visualize the bullet path. He does shots from 5 different ZERO'd positions (25 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards, and 300 yards), and it really shows how the bullet path changes when doing that. He shoots at targets with each of the above ZERO'd positions, and shoots them all from six different distances( 25 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards, 300 yards, and 400 yards). I think the only way to really absorb all that data is to see the bullet path during each sceanrio.
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The 3d part is 3d, I don’t see an option to change that, but there may be. You can download the app for free.
Here is a rough approximation of the graph at 200. Might be easier than the Windows thing.
I can’t speak about the video because I didn’t watch it, to me it seems irrelevent, unless I missed the point.
But I zero everything at 100 yards and sort out the drops or corrections after that.
All I did here is hit the “calculate” button using the info that they prefilled when the page loaded.
Looks like you can compare two bullets and also add in the angle (under advanced).
Not sure if that’s what you’re looking for.
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gundata.org
Another couple:
bisonballistics.com
Also, this is an interesting discussion:
www.snipershide.com
Bullet Ballistics Comparison Calculator
A ballistics calculator for comparing wind and drop performance of two bullets.
bisonballistics.com
Also, this is an interesting discussion:
Does any ballistic app or software have a graph that shows the LOS in relation to the bullet trajectory?
As the title says does any ballistic app or software have a graph that shows the LOS in relation to the bullet trajectory? If it could be printed that would be even better. I see plenty of apps that show the bullet drop at given ranges, but I want to see a graph that illustrates that as well...
www.snipershide.com
Now that’s just being defensive and argumentative. “All” the elevations…whatever that is…are irrelevant. The zero and angle from his shooting position are the determinants and, again, unless he was standing at the bottom of a mountain shooting up at a goat there is no way he’s 5” high at 200 if he has a proper zero at 100.
As I read it, he never even cranked on elevation on his scope after his buddy said he’d be shooting high at 200 as it is with the scope on zero.
Either his zero is very messed up, something else is wrong with his rifle system, or see above about mountain and goat.
Cheers
As people have mentioned before several feet or several dozen feet of elevation change won’t make any discernible difference in point of impact.
This is dead zero shooting park in Spencer Tennessee.
There is a lot more than 6’ of elevation change in this range.
All elevation was dialed
The targets you are seeing are at 100y, 300y, 600y, 800y and 1,000y
The lowest targets are the 600y. I would estimate that they are a good 40’ below shooting level maybe more.
The 800y targets are the 5 on the far left below the wall of 1,000y targets.
I ran out of hand loads at 600y so I switched to several factory rounds. The target I posted several posts above at 1,000y was Hornady 147gr ELD-M.
The 800y target were Sierra Custom Competition with 140gr SMK’s.
The target below are my hand loads with 139gr Lapua Scenar.
They are within 1/2 moa of the target center (vertical)
Each square on the target represents 1MOA.
On the fifth shot I was correcting for windage but I wasn’t quite there.
The point I am trying to make is that if you have a good zero and proper zero weather data plugged into most any good ballistic app you can shoot a group at your furthest distance and use the truing feature to bring every other distance in line with where it should be.
Gravity is a constant so trying to shoot at every distance out there is pointless.
Shooting from furthest back to closest will be more fruitful.
This is exactly what I was looking for! It shows the graph of the data and easily allows me to change the zero yard spot. I can lay over all the data I want! Thanks!
I did notice they don’t have a 6.5 creedmoor, but I would guess I can use the .264 Winchester Magnum and choose a same weight bullet and set my velocity. In theory, the cartridge doesn’t matter here. I think.
What is this app?
EDIT: Someone deleted a post right after this one containing the remark "Look at the big watermark in the middle of the graph."
Don't see it.
What watermark?
Read the post again, the first sentence between the first and second comma.
You mis interpreted my intent, he was on information over load already and adding more problems. My post was about him slowing his roll. He picked up on that as our conversation was friendly and professional.
@yo-yo - I just saw your other thread asking what is the butt stock with a mono-pod in some pic you found.
In that thread you said you are shooting out of a lead sled, you don't have a bipod, and you seem very unclear about how to use a rear bag (and what constitutes a good rear bag).
All of this may well contribute to the accuracy issue at 200 that is being discussed here.
Am I wrong?
In that thread you said you are shooting out of a lead sled, you don't have a bipod, and you seem very unclear about how to use a rear bag (and what constitutes a good rear bag).
All of this may well contribute to the accuracy issue at 200 that is being discussed here.
Am I wrong?
Yeah, I tried Caldwell sand bags and hated them. I ended up ditching them and going back to the sled, which is super stable, so I would think that would help stability, wouldn't it?
My friend wants me to buy a bi-pod, but I didn't really like shooting off it either. Perhaps it's something I could learn to like though. I did buy the Caldwell Stinger though. It should arrive tomorrow. If I don't like that, I will return it for a bi-pod.
As for lead sled…no. Not IMO. How are you going to control recoil in one…and the gun definitely moves before the bullet exits the barrel. If they were that stable of a shooting platform you’d see it in use at the range by many others. Again, just in my def non-expert opinion, the only thing they are really good for is bore sighting as it will hold a rifle (unfired rifle) in one position so you can look thru bore and then thru the scope to get close (on paper) and then refine your zero by shooting.Yeah, I tried Caldwell sand bags and hated them. I ended up ditching them and going back to the sled, which is super stable, so I would think that would help stability, wouldn't it?
My friend wants me to buy a bi-pod, but I didn't really like shooting off it either. Perhaps it's something I could learn to like though. I did buy the Caldwell Stinger though. It should arrive tomorrow. If I don't like that, I will return it for a bi-pod.
As to the mechanical front rest….well, they seem popular with the bench rest guys but they also often (always?) free recoil their rifles.
The F-class open guys also use big mechanical front rests but I’ve heard that called “prone bench rest” lol. But those guys sure know how to make consistent ammo and read the wind.
My personal suggestion is, as mention by others, get a good bipod and rear bag then get some instruction on how to use them.
But I’m nobody and…as I said…I’m no expert.
Best of luck, my friend.
Hmmm...what makes you say the bullet trajectory can be affected by the recoil? I thought these bullets were traveling fast enough that wouldn't be an issue? I haven't heard of that effect. I'll have to study up on that. The 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't really recoil much either, but I guess that is possible. I felt like the sled held pretty well and too less tie for me to setup to fire again. I do have my shoulder on the back of the sled though too. Maybe that helps?
Yeah, I'll consider the bipod. Shooting the 338 Lapua from the bipod was a much for me in recoil, which is what I started shooting on initially, so perhaps that swayed me into the sled. That Lapua jumps all over the place. Better now with a big muzzle break, but perhaps that has tainted my desire to have a more stable platform.
So, I put together this graph of zero points, relative to a 400 yard shooting range. This is the different positions the guy in that video showed in his presentation. Zero'd at 25, 50, 75, 100, 200, 300 and shooting shots from 50 to 400 yards. This is kinda shocking to see how each different zero point creates the different crossing point of the "line of sight" of the scope.
I used "gundata dot org/ballistic-calculator" to compute the data and I used a .264 Win Mag with BC and velocity altered to math that of my 6.5 Creedmoor. This sight didn't have any 6.5 Creedmoor selections.
I used "gundata dot org/ballistic-calculator" to compute the data and I used a .264 Win Mag with BC and velocity altered to math that of my 6.5 Creedmoor. This sight didn't have any 6.5 Creedmoor selections.
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Don't make this more difficult than it actually is.
The extra dampening of the recoil in the lead sled does not affect the "trajectory" when using that term to define the ballistic curve. It can however produce a different POI compared to shooting the same rifle/ammo combination from a different type of rested position. The lighter the rifle and the heavier the recoil impulse is, the greater the difference in POI between the two styles of holding the rifle.
Your POI is of course simply the endpoint of your trajectory. If you induce a change in the zero by changing how the rifle is allowed to move during recoil, the trajectory of that shot will bring the curve across different points. So changes in shooter input during the shot will change where the ballistic curve exists in space.
Same rule can apply to POI when shooting from tripods, barricades and unsupported positions.
I'm not happy with my choice of words but it's late. Hope this helps more than confuses you further.
Brother...the gun moves due to recoil before the bullet exits the muzzle. This is a fact. This is why people work on building their firing positions and their fundamentals including natural point of aim, trigger control, proper use of a bipod and rear bag, etc.
Little story from a Frank/Marc (Frank is Lowlight...owns this site, right) clinic I took where Frank asked if he could shoot my rifle. I said yes and he proceeded...with my dope...to bang steel at 600 yards. I get down with same dope and I'm shooting consistently high. Both Frank and Marc pointed out that my rear bag was slanted rearward letting it hinge a bit on recoil so the butt goes down and the muzzle goes up....all before the bullet exits the barrel.
I corrected my grip on the rear bag and was back to banging the target.
And this too was with 6.5 CM and a 23 lbs rifle.
Let me repeat this: the gun moves due to recoil before the bullet exits the muzzle. This is a fact.
Cheers
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Hey, thanks for the explanation. I'm certainly not wanting to make something more difficult, I'm simply inexperienced. I understand what you are saying. I wasn't aware there were measurable movements in the barrel, prior to the bullet leaving the muzzle. I just watched some high speed videos showing such. Interesting!
I wasn't aware the sled might actually cause issues with POI, or be less precise than a bi-pod (and a rear bag). I just thought it was preference. I will experiment with this Stinger mechanism I just ordered too, and if nothing else, use it as a gun vice to hold/clean it, if it's robust enough.
I will likely end up with a bi-pod and a bag. Thanks for the thoughts!
Thanks. Yeah, crazy...I was truly unaware of this.
. I do learn quickly though. . I just watched some high speed (frame rate) videos showing such movement! Nuts!I hate to admit I also wasn't aware of "follow through" either. I never thought about that. I was just reading about this too. Clearly, I have a lot to learn!
I don't have a good setup yet...just been firing off an old plastic folding table while seated in a folding chair. Somehow, I can hit the bullseye pretty regularly at 100 yards, so maybe there's hope for me yet.
Perhaps my high shot are related to the resting device....I'll mix that up and try again. My friend shoots off a bipod and has been shooting for many years, but he still experiences the same issue, so there must also be something else happening...but perhaps not. Perhaps it's just fundamentals here too.
Hopefully get a chance to retest all these issues this weekend.
I’m a bench shooter, not prone. I find my groups are a bit better with a 14lbs x-shaped bag (vs. bipod) and the rear bag (The Compromise) made by our very own @Enough Said.Thanks. Yeah, crazy...I was truly unaware of this.
I hate to admit I also wasn't aware of "follow through" either. I never thought about that. I was just reading about this too. Clearly, I have a lot to learn!
I don't have a good setup yet...just been firing off an old plastic folding table while seated in a folding chair. Somehow, I can hit the bullseye pretty regularly at 100 yards, so maybe there's hope for me yet.
Perhaps my high shot are related to the resting device....I'll mix that up and try again. My friend shoots off a bipod and has been shooting for many years, but he still experiences the same issue, so there must also be something else happening...but perhaps not. Perhaps it's just fundamentals here too.
Hopefully get a chance to retest all these issues this weekend.
The front bag is now made by Armegeddon. Can’t seem to find it via their nav, but here it is:
I have the medium. Order it filled with the plastic regrind, if they still do that. Unless you hate yourself, don’t fill it yourself.
I imagine a good bipod shooter would be just as (or more) accurate than me. But I find that bipod technique needs more care, plus in the field it’s slower to quickly transition to multiple pdog targets. For me.
I’ve not used the AG X bag but have what I believe is the OG of these type front bags. Bulls Bag. I don’t use it much. I find a bipod to be more useful, configurable, transportable, and flexible for moving from target to target. Oh, and a fuck lot lighter. lol.
But, they certainly have their proponents.
Field Shooting Rest | Portable Rifle Rest | Bulls Bag
Bulls Bag has expert shooting rest. We have field shooting rest models. At Bulls Bag you will find many different types of shooting rest for expert marksmanships. Call us for more information, 1-888-665-2855.
www.bullsbag.com
@yo-yo - the plastic table prob ain’t helping any if it’s like the plastic 1/2 banquet type table I have. Might want to try prone with whatever you use for a front rest this weekend. Most stable position but like everything else about precision rifle it too has some fundamental techniques.
There are excellent vids in the online training section here but you have to be a paying supporter. Phil Velayo has a couple of excellent vids on YouTube about how to build a bridge with bipod in the prone position (and may want to check out his other vids…he’s also a former Marine Scout Sniper like Frank and Marc).
And part 2
Not know how to use a bipod and build a position might be why you don’t like bipods…maybe.
As far as follow thru, here is a very short vid where Phil shows his follow thru while shooting in comps.
Or, keep it real simple and follow the mantra that Marc Taylor drilled into me…”press, break, freeze”
Cheers
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Definitely a lot lighter! That’s why I started bringing bipods to the range.
But for dynamic shooting where you have to quickly transition 15°-30° and immediately shoot? Imagine you’re standing and shooting off a hard-top pickup bed cover.
That Phil Velayo fellow could do it (he’s awesome) but it’s really easy to swivel the bag and squeeze one off. It’s closer to swiveling on a tripod.
Even on my swiveling pdog bench I have to make fairly significant lateral angle x-bag adjustments as the buggers run to and fro (bench not moving).
Whereas bipods feel so restrictive to me…just straight ahead, as in flying down a canyon like Luke Skywalker haha. If I want to make a slight lateral adjustment I have to pick up the whole heavy rifle+bipod and get comfy behind the gun again.
If you have a known course of fire when shooting steel and on the clock, I understand how bipods would work fine. You know which way you’re going after you shoot. Whereas I never know where TF I’m gonna point next.
My Elite Iron panning bipod is a little in-between a regular bipod and a bag, shooting style-wise. But with all bipods I feel like there’s a lot less room for error in my fundamentals then with a heavy x-bag.
I probably just suck lol.
All that matters is what works for a person. Just sharing what works for me. @yo-yo it’s a journey man…in the end everybody has a big box of different front rests, bipods, rear bags, grips, scopes, and fucking scads of different height scope rings that didn’t work out.
Trial and error is the only way you figure out what works for you.
Well, that and some good instruction in a clinic or similar.
Totally. I wonder if Frank & team ever does an all-suppressed 2-3 day class? That’s the only way I could atttend. I have ear issues, even doubled up.Well, that and some good instruction in a clinic or similar.
Thank you! This was super informative! It's funny, I was standing outside a burger joint with a friend last week, trying to think through these exact scenarios. I like to think in terms of extremes as well, in order to understand what is happening. The example of shooting straight down (90deg) and the bullet experiencing "no drop" off the original path is part of the key understanding for me. Thanks for sharing this!
Thanks for posting this. Somehow I missed this post before. Yeah, that's super interesting to me how the path changes, and the "zeros" inside 100 yards are actually calibrated to the first crossing the bullet makes with the line of sight of the scope. I'm still ingesting this idea a bit. After plotting these out a bit, I see the reason the military tends to use a 300 yard zero!
Thanks for the links to these other items. Ok, I may just have to mess around a bit with different setups. I can see having a bipod, if for nothing else, easy way to rest the gun in between analysis. That's part of what I like about the sled. I can just fire - and stop and think about it. The bags don't allow me to get up from the shot, without securing the gun somehow.
Interesting...this will take some thought.
Thanks for the info here! Yeah, the table sucks...I have been wanting to build one of those big wooden tables that I saw people making out of a sheet of plywood, but I haven't gotten that far yet. My outings are dependant on my friend and is schedule right now, and usually come together very quickly with little time to adjust around his current procedures (including the use of the plastic table).
I'll watch this videos and consider paying for access to the additional materials you mentioned.
I will also consider eliminating the table and try a prone position if I can. I think the tall grass and the slight elevation change down might prohibit this, but I will investigate it! Thanks!
Funny! Yeah, I can see people stacking up with equipment that didn't work for them!
.Sor far, Amazon has been my friend on returns, so I'll see how it goes with a few more devices. Still waiting on the Stinger. Amazon having some delivery issues this week.
I may just go grab a bipod today too, and see what I think. I did shoot the 338 Lapua off of one, and it moved all over the place! That's partially why I have avoided it. Perhaps that's just bad form on my part too.
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