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U.S. Army/Navy/USMC M14-based sniper and DMR/SDM rifles circa late-1960s to late 201Xs

#251
Huskydriver said:
If it's like the guy above posing for Instagram....doubt many are staying alive very long... and most of us have our bullshit flags out big time in regards to that shot......
Click to expand...
x2
Like the Ghost of Kiev, I take everything coming from Ukraine with huge pinches of salt.

As I said in the bear pit thread that was already made about this topic - that 12.7x114(14.5 necked down to .50) would definitely be a good choice to take a poke that far... 656gr case capacity(!), and @Frank Green said he/Bartlein supplied the barrels for those rifles. All that to say, they appear to be making good/decent choices on equipment from what Ive seen.

But at the same time.. IDGAF what round you're using, IF that shot is legit.. its a 1 in a million luck of the (trigger)draw sort of deal. ToF is gonna be retarded long regardless. Wind changing direction 5-10x or more, etc.. yall all know what Im getting at.

Bet the house he couldn't follow it up with another hit.
 
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#252
Random Guy said:
I’m sure it was 50 percent luck at that distance. I understand that the U.S. has trained many Ukrainian snipers, presumably SOCOM based training:

www.cbsnews.com

Why Ukraine's elite snipers, and their U.S. guns and ammo, are more vital than ever in the war with Russia

CBS News gets access to the secretive world of Ukraine's elite snipers and sees why they're so important in the war with Russia.
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com
“Ukrainian-made weapons. Many use American scopes and American .338 caliber rifles, and the unit told CBS News that 90% of its ammunition is also from the U.S.

Commissar wears a U.S. flag patch on his uniform.

"Americans have helped Ukraine a lot and taught me a lot," he said. "I wear this as a sign of respect."
Click to expand...
@UA SOF SNIPE said he uses a Barrett Mk 22 + Nightforce(or thermal). And has seen others use AI AX's and Sako M10's...
 
#253
Forgetful Coyote said:
@UA SOF SNIPE said he uses a Barrett Mk 22 + Nightforce(or thermal). And has seen others use AI AX's and Sako M10's...
Click to expand...
Yes, many shooters were taught by your specialists.
We use a lot of American equipment very effectively. Some work, some don’t. What doesn’t work, we improve and use it.
Your guys also come to us and learn from their experience.
What's bad about it?
 
#254
Forgetful Coyote said:
x2
Like the Ghost of Kiev, I take everything coming from Ukraine with huge pinches of salt.

As I said in the bear pit thread that was already made about this topic - that 12.7x114(14.5 necked down to .50) would definitely be a good choice to take a poke that far... 656gr case capacity(!), and @Frank Green said he/Bartlein supplied the barrels for those rifles. All that to say, they appear to be making good/decent choices on equipment from what Ive seen.

But at the same time.. IDGAF what round you're using, IF that shot is legit.. its a 1 in a million luck of the (trigger)draw sort of deal. ToF is gonna be retarded long regardless. Wind changing direction 5-10x or more, etc.. yall all know what Im getting at.

Bet the house he couldn't follow it up with another hit.
Click to expand...
I wrote that in fact, technically this shot was a miss since there was a difference of 3 meters between the point of impact and the aiming point. But at the point of impact there was also an infantryman of the Russian federation
 
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#255
UA SOF SNIPE said:
Yes, many shooters were taught by your specialists.
We use a lot of American equipment very effectively. Some work, some don’t. What doesn’t work, we improve and use it.
Your guys also come to us and learn from their experience.
What's bad about it?
Click to expand...
Nothing bad about it..
I just think Sako and AI make a better rifle than Barrett.
 
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#256
Forgetful Coyote said:
Nothing bad about it..
I just think Sako and AI make a better rifle than Barrett.
Click to expand...
I can say with confidence that no.
The MK 22 is currently the best rifle for combat vision.
Everything is thought out, everything is simple and reliable as an anvil. And if something breaks, it can be replaced using a regular multitool.
I use this rifle in temperature ranges from +45 to -12°C in humid climates and mud. The rifle pleases with its reliable operation. I fired 1,743 shots from it in a year and a half. There is no cold separation of the first shot
 
#257
Forgetful Coyote said:
Nothing bad about it..
I just think Sako and AI make a better rifle than Barrett.
Click to expand...
Regarding AI products.
Yes, the fit and materials are top notch. The barrels are stacked. But for some reason they don’t last as long as Baret’s.
There were several times when after crawling in the mud the AI shutters would not cock.
 
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#258
Forgetful Coyote said:
Nothing bad about it..
I just think Sako and AI make a better rifle than Barrett.
Click to expand...
The products of the Sako company are not at all pleasing. The rifle is rusting, and if you put your ear to the rifle you can hear it rusting))))
The basis of their rifles from the Sako and AI companies came from sporting target rifles that were brought to the required standards.
And Barrett fucked everyone in terms of a military rifle
 
#259
UA SOF SNIPE said:
The products of the Sako company are not at all pleasing. The rifle is rusting, and if you put your ear to the rifle you can hear it rusting))))
The basis of their rifles from the Sako and AI companies came from sporting target rifles that were brought to the required standards.
And Barrett fucked everyone in terms of a military rifle
Click to expand...
Interesting.
If Barrett's barrels last longer.. I'd imagine its because they use cold hammer forged chrome moly steel barrels(IIRC). AI uses Bartlein cut rifled stainless steel barrels.
 
#262
Forgetful Coyote said:
What model Sako did you see rusting?
Click to expand...
TRG-42.
I think the worst rifle for war is the Steyer SSG-09.
This is generally rubbish both in terms of reliability and quality of material.
It seems to me that the damn Savage 110BA is many times better.
But Savage rifled barrels are still a lottery. They have happened and produced 0.4-05 MOA consistently.
 
#264
Forgetful Coyote said:
Interesting.
If Barrett's barrels last longer.. I'd imagine its because they use cold hammer forged chrome moly steel barrels(IIRC). AI uses Bartlein cut rifled stainless steel barrels.
Click to expand...
The Barrett MRAD for the ASR rifle isn't using hammer forged barrels. They submitted guns with Kriegers on them unless Barrett did a bait and switch.
 
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#266
I meant to post this earlier this year for anyone interested. Archival picture from Springfield Armory of the 'original' prototype T44E4 (later adopted as the M14) sniper rifle that was tested at Ft Benning in 1958. The 2.2x M84 scope was the 'control' scope during these tests, and various commercial scopes in various hinged mounts were tested by the US Army. It was not adopted at the time, and the M1D (Garand) remained the standard US Army sniper rifle.
T44E4_sniper_archival_v2.jpg


Here's a replica of a 1955 T44E4 with the 1958 prototype hinged scope mount that allows top-loading via the cartridge clip guide. Not adopted as it was too complex to zero the mount + scope to the rifle, and was not strong enough for hard combat use. However, it is an interesting vintage collection piece.
T44E4_sniper_replica_left_profile2_v2.jpg


T44E4_sniper_replica_rt_profile2_v2.jpg

Below shows the M84 scope flipped over to the left side to allow top-loading via 5-rd stripper clips. That was the thinking in 1958..but by the mid-1960s the Army wisely determined that M14s were usually loaded via their 20-rd magazine, and this complex hinged system for top-loading was unneeded, and this design was also not strong enough for combat use. The Army quickly developed a simple fixed scope mount in 1967 for the M14 w/ M84 scope.
T44E4_sniper_replica_rt_hinged_over1_v2.jpg


T44E4_sniper_replica_rt_hinged_over2_v2.jpg


T44E4_sniper_replica_top_hinged_over3_v2.jpg

As seen below, at least the scope was mounted directly over the bore, which was the not case the simple AWC fixed mount - it was offset to the left.
T44E4_sniper_replica_top_v2_standard_position_v2.jpg


Background for anyone interested: The top half of that original hinged scope mount was found on eBay back in 2019, but it was missing the bottom half that mounts to the receiver. I acquired some high resolution pictures that were taken back in 2004 of the only surviving hinged prototype original mount that was owned by a deceased collector. Then asked an engineer to reverse-engineer the original mounting bracket and provide some very nice drawings. Lastly, two years later, I had a machinist finally make the new bracket during 2022-23. I have not taken this optic system to the range yet, but I will in 2024.

Lastly, here's the comparison. Top is the simple/fixed Army Weapons Command (AWC) M14 scope mount that was developed in 1967 for Vietnam. Hundreds were sent to that conflict with the little M84 scope and the leftover M1C G&H scope rings. Below is the 1958 prototype hinged mount.

M14_AWC_vs_hinged_mount_comparison_v2.jpg

Anyhow, just some pics of the "alpha" version of an M14-based sniper rifle.
 
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#267
Random Guy said:
I meant to post this earlier this year for anyone interested. Archival picture from Springfield Armory of the 'original' prototype M14 pattern sniper rifle that was tested at Ft Benning in 1958. The 2.2x M84 scope was the 'control' scope during these tests, and various commercial scopes in various hinged mounts were tested by the US Army. It was not adopted.
View attachment 8282498

Here's a replica of a 1955 T44E4 with the 1958 prototype hinged scope mount that allows top-loading via the cartridge clip guide. Not adopted as it was too complex to zero the mount + scope to the rifle, and was not strong enough for hard combat use. However, it is an interesting vintage collection piece.
View attachment 8282499

View attachment 8282500
Below shows the M84 scope flipped over to the left side to allow top-loading via 5-rd stripper clips. That was the thinking in 1958..but by the mid-1960s the Army wisely determined that M14s were usually loaded via their 20-rd magazine, and this complex hinged system for top-loading was unneeded, and this design was also not strong enough for combat use. The Army quickly developed a simple fixed scope mount in 1967 for the M14 w/ M84 scope.
View attachment 8282501

View attachment 8282503

View attachment 8282506

View attachment 8282505

Background for anyone interested: The top half of that original hinged scope mount was found on eBay back in 2019, but it was missing the bottom half that mounts to the receiver. I acquired some high resolution pictures that were taken back in 2004 of the only surviving hinged prototype original mount that was owned by a deceased collector. Then asked an engineer to reverse-engineer the original mounting bracket and provide some very nice drawings. Lastly, two years later, I had a machinist finally make the new bracket during 2022-23. I have not taken this optic system to the range yet, but I will in 2024.

Anyhow, just some pics of the "alpha" version of an M14-based sniper rifle.
Click to expand...
That is, at that time there was a problem with maintaining loading of the M14 through a cartridge clip in the presence of a box magazine???
 
#268
Frank Green said:
The Barrett MRAD for the ASR rifle isn't using hammer forged barrels. They submitted guns with Kriegers on them unless Barrett did a bait and switch.
Click to expand...
Ah ok. Apologies, I thought Barrett was using in-house produced CHF barrels. But good on them for going with a single point cut rifled tube and known top echelon player like Krieger(I'd obviously put Bartlein, and Brux, Rock Creek, James Lederer, Blake, and Hawk Hill in the same tier), don't wanna compromise when every bit of precision counts!

@Frank Green you heard Geissele is about to start doing cut rifled barrels as well? He(Mr Bill G) is already using his own cut rifled barrels on his 6mm ARC competition rigs. He'll be offering finished AR barrels as well as bolt gun blanks.

Just curious.. whats the longest barrels yall are able to make? And the biggest caliber, thickest O.D.? Eg: could yall theoretically make a 30mm autocannon barrel? Say 72" long, 3.5" O.D. at the shank??
 
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#270
Have you ever come across the Pachmayr Garand tip-over scope mount..??
Click to expand...
Thanks. As to your question, only via that picture you posted. However, I once saw an original 1941 Lend-Lease M1 Garand at a gun show that had been ruined - as someone back in the 1950s or 60s had drilled 4 threaded holes into the left side of the receiver to presumably mount of one of those Pachmayr 'Lo-Swing' mounts. I asked the seller if I could just buy the original flush-nut rear sights off that 1941 M1, but he said no, he wanted $3k for the rifle. That's the only example that I have seen, but the mount itself was missing, only the 4 threaded holes remained...
 
Last edited:
#271
That is, at that time there was a problem with maintaining loading of the M14 through a cartridge clip in the presence of a box magazine???
Click to expand...
No, I think it was just mid-20th century military thinking. Almost all military rifles made up thru WWII allowed loading via stripper clips, and that was carried over to the M14, likely to simply preserve a traditional way of loading the rifle. In addition, a solider can easily carry 60 extra rds in 5-rd stripper clips in a cloth bandoleer, much easier than he can carry 3 more magazines. Loading or "topping-off" an M14 with installed mag via the cartridge clip guide with 5-rd stripper clips is doable, but it requires some effort/good hand strength - and the M14 multi-tool probably helps- see pic at bottom right:

IMG_1670.jpg

Again, the 1958 hinged-mount sort-of reflected mid-20th century thinking.
 
Last edited:
#272
Forgetful Coyote said:
Ah ok. Apologies, I thought Barrett was using in-house produced CHF barrels. But good on them for going with a single point cut rifled tube and known top echelon player like Krieger(I'd obviously put Bartlein, and Brux, Rock Creek, James Lederer, Blake, and Hawk Hill in the same tier), don't wanna compromise when every bit of precision counts!

@Frank Green you heard Geissele is about to start doing cut rifled barrels as well? He(Mr Bill G) is already using his own cut rifled barrels on his 6mm ARC competition rigs. He'll be offering finished AR barrels as well as bolt gun blanks.

Just curious.. whats the longest barrels yall are able to make? And the biggest caliber, thickest O.D.? Eg: could yall theoretically make a 30mm autocannon barrel? Say 72" long, 3.5" O.D. at the shank??
Click to expand...
Yes I know Bill G is making barrels.

Longest barrel we can make (tooling and caliber plays a part) is around a 53" blank. We've done 50cal's about 51" long and 20MM barrels at 52"/53" long. That's the biggest caliber we are tooled for. 20MM.

We would need to build a longer machine to do 72" long and make tooling for 30mm but there is no demand from us for anything like that to justify doing it.

Largest O.D. we've done/can do has been 2.7". Pain in the ass! Steel started out at 3" o.d. and on a 46" blanks that we did for 50BMG barrels each blank starts out at 92# each. It's a two man job to load the blanks into the machines.

Barrett submitted with Kriegers. AI and another maker submitted with our blanks for ASR. In my opinion Barrett got the contract all on political stuff. My opinion based on what I heard out of the military guys etc...

One thing against AI as I understand it was the Gov't wanted AI to have complete manufacturing here in the States within 1 year of being awarded the contract if it went to them. That time frame was just too short for that to happen and was one of the things that worked against them.
 
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#273
Frank Green said:
Yes I know Bill G is making barrels.

Longest barrel we can make (tooling and caliber plays a part) is around a 53" blank. We've done 50cal's about 51" long and 20MM barrels at 52"/53" long. That's the biggest caliber we are tooled for. 20MM.

We would need to build a longer machine to do 72" long and make tooling for 30mm but there is no demand from us for anything like that to justify doing it.

Largest O.D. we've done/can do has been 2.7". Pain in the ass! Steel started out at 3" o.d. and on a 46" blanks that we did for 50BMG barrels each blank starts out at 92# each. It's a two man job to load the blanks into the machines.

Barrett submitted with Kriegers. AI and another maker submitted with our blanks for ASR. In my opinion Barrett got the contract all on political stuff. My opinion based on what I heard out of the military guys etc...

One thing against AI as I understand it was the Gov't wanted AI to have complete manufacturing here in the States within 1 year of being awarded the contract if it went to them. That time frame was just too short for that to happen and was one of the things that worked against them.
Click to expand...
FWIW - Heard the same thing, US industrial base and all; then Barrett gets sold to NIOA no less.
 
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#274
Random Guy said:
No, I think it was just mid-20th century military thinking. Almost all military rifles made up thru WWII allowed loading via stripper clips, and that was carried over to the M14, likely to simply preserve a traditional way of loading the rifle. In addition, a solider can easily carry 60 extra rds in 5-rd stripper clips in a cloth bandoleer, much easier than he can carry 3 more magazines. Loading or "topping-off" an M14 with installed mag via the cartridge clip guide with 5-rd stripper clips is doable, but it requires some effort/good hand strength - and the M14 multi-tool probably helps- see pic at bottom right:

View attachment 8282543
Again, the 1958 hinged-mount sort-of reflected mid-20th century thinking.
Click to expand...
I think that yes, it was most likely a good military tradition.
A similar situation occurred in other weapons schools, despite the fact that store-bought food was increasingly gaining momentum after the bright appearance of the STG-44.
For example, the same Soviet SKS or the Czech VZ-58.
 
#275
Random Guy said:
No, I think it was just mid-20th century military thinking. Almost all military rifles made up thru WWII allowed loading via stripper clips, and that was carried over to the M14, likely to simply preserve a traditional way of loading the rifle. In addition, a solider can easily carry 60 extra rds in 5-rd stripper clips in a cloth bandoleer, much easier than he can carry 3 more magazines. Loading or "topping-off" an M14 with installed mag via the cartridge clip guide with 5-rd stripper clips is doable, but it requires some effort/good hand strength - and the M14 multi-tool probably helps- see pic at bottom right:

View attachment 8282543
Again, the 1958 hinged-mount sort-of reflected mid-20th century thinking.
Click to expand...
Although at that time gunsmiths clearly understood the threat of a bolt stop when the receiver was open from the top. Well, in general, the rigidity of the design is inferior to a purely magazine-fed system.
 
#284
I don't think this picture was posted on this thread before, but this is reportedly a Delta Force (correction) SEAL team 6 team in Somalia circa 1993.
On the bottom left of both pics is what some call an "M25" sniper rifle. (Probably SOCOM M14 sniper rifle built at Crane).
1993_Delta_Somalia_M25.jpeg

In bottom pic, same M25 on left with I think a Moleskin patch on the buttstock. Solider on far right also carrying an M14, but can't see any details.
1993_SEALs_Somalia_M25.png


I don't know many details, but here's a pic of perhaps the most unusual M14 prototype rifle made at Crane for SOCOM use. It's a short-barreled M14 with a highly modified barrel and gas cylinder that was apparently rotated 90 degrees to the 3 o'clock position, which allowed it to function and fit with this custom-made chassis. I was told only a few prototypes were made, and this is the only picture that I am aware with this odd-ball rifle. (Navy SEAL VBSS team in a training exercise/staged picture). Just some random pics of some unusual M14 military rifles over time.

navy_seal_vbss_team_v2.jpg
 
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#285
Random Guy said:
I don't think this picture was posted on this thread before, but this is reportedly a Delta Force team in Somalia circa 1993.
On the bottom left of both pics is what some call an "M25" sniper rifle. (Probably SOCOM M14 sniper rifle built at Crane).
View attachment 8332178
In bottom pic, same M25 on left with I think a Moleskin patch on the buttstock. Solider on far right also carrying an M14, but can't see any details.
View attachment 8332179

I don't know many details, but here's a pic of perhaps the most unusual M14 prototype rifle made at Crane for SOCOM use. It's a short-barreled M14 with a highly modified barrel and gas cylinder that was apparently rotated 90 degrees to the 3 o'clock position, which allowed it to function and fit with this custom-made chassis. I was told only a few prototypes were made, and this is the only picture that I am aware with this odd-ball rifle. (Navy SEAL VBSS team in a training exercise/staged picture). Just some random pics of some unusual M14 military rifles over time.

View attachment 8332185
Click to expand...
The top 2 pics are SEAL Team 6, not Delta.
 
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#290
For those curious, that rifle in the above picture in Iraq is an EBR-RI. My understanding is that the US Army provided many of the old EBR-RIs to Iraq as part of the Foreign Military Sales program. The US Army was migrating to the H&K-made M110A1 for the SDMR role, so the old M14s got sent to places like Iraq, and it seems some went to Ukraine as well.

Iraqi_EBR2_2015.jpg
 
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#293
Random Guy said:
Thanks for those pictures, that replica looks great. I have never seen a 2011-dated EBR-RI Supplemental Guide, only the 2009 version, neat.
Click to expand...
I bet that has you all hot n bothered huh lol.

m1marty said:
Finished up another M14 to add to the collection
EBR-RI with all usgi HRA parts (except the Fulton stripped action and Fulton/Criterion tube)

View attachment 8516840View attachment 8516841
Click to expand...

Looking at that kit is giving me heartburn... Snapped that stupid tool first time trying the loosen the gas plug to clean it after a tic where I expended almost my full load out.

One of the allen keys bent first time I had to use it...

Sling broke like 3 months into the tour...

Got my ass riped by my CSM when he finally made it out to our ao on one of like 3 trips he ever made out there for wearing "unauthorized" mag pouches that came with the kit. He wasn't believing any shit about that being issued with our nomex acu draw.

Still got the mag pouches somewhere with a ton of Afghanistan dust crusted over em on dried blood stains and some Copenhagen dribble

So many miles humping that pos

Copy (2) of IMG_0107.JPG
 
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#295
m1marty said:
@Huskydriver I need to track down 2 more pouches. Thanks for the reminder.
Click to expand...

How much you offering for the real deal carried in country with dna from all the sources still covered with Afghani dirt clp and grime? The only way to flex properly on your clone buddies ebr kit. No low balls I know what I got lol......


@HOOFER do you remember if we left our 14s with you guys when we ripped out? I can't remember if I brought mine home but I m pretty sure I left mine there... Maybe I didnt















@MarinePMI this is not a real offer...Just meandering outta the pit again I'll show myself out lol
 
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#296
FWIW, I have 2 SAGE projects underway. Waiting on buddy to finish barrel mounting, but both should be neat replicas when done.

IMG_3730.jpeg


Top will be a replica USMC M39:
IMG_1983.jpeg


….and bottom chassis will be a replica of an early SOCOM Mk 14 Mod 0 issued to Army Airborne (fully length chassis w/ 22” barrel, as seen here):
IMG_9414.jpeg


…of course part of me also wants a black SAGE chassis in case I want to build an Army EBR-RI one day…
 
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#297
Random Guy said:
FWIW, I have 2 SAGE projects underway. Waiting on buddy to finish barrel mounting, but both should be neat replicas when done.

View attachment 8517415

Top will be a replica USMC M39:
View attachment 8517417

….and bottom chassis will be a replica of an early SOCOM Mk 14 Mod 0 issued to Army Airborne (fully length chassis w/ 22” barrel, as seen here):
View attachment 8517416

…of course part of me also wants a black SAGE chassis in case I want to build an Army EBR-RI one day…
Click to expand...
Speaking of EMRs (tool kit is for earlier green DMR but carried over)
20241004_012753.jpg
20241004_012809.jpg
 
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#299
Huskydriver said:
How much you offering for the real deal carried in country with dna from all the sources still covered with Afghani dirt clp and grime? The only way to flex properly on your clone buddies ebr kit. No low balls I know what I got lol......


@HOOFER do you remember if we left our 14s with you guys when we ripped out? I can't remember if I brought mine home but I m pretty sure I left mine there... Maybe I didnt















@MarinePMI this is not a real offer...Just meandering outta the pit again I'll show myself out lol
Click to expand...

We brought our EBRs from home station. I don’t think we got any TPE
 
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