I only load for 6.5 Creedmoor. I currently seat bullets with a Redding Comp Seater with micro top on an Area 419 press. Wanting to try another Seating die to get a little better bullet runout. Have thought about trying Inline seating dies with arbor press. Any suggestions for only loading for one caliber? Thanks for the help.
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Precision Seating Die Options
- Thread starter bbowles
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I use an area 419 press also. I used it for decaping, sizing, expanding, and seating. Now I use the LE Wilson inline die with the K&M arbor press for the seating part and the runout of the rounds have gotten far better. Before that I was using the Whidden and Forester micrometer dies for seating.
I appreciate all the thoughts. My mean average runout after sizing averages 0.0012 over many cases. So sizing seems really good. However, after seating the bullet runout mean average is 0.0020. Both is good. Just thought I would try an inline. And I agree that probably won't see one bit of difference on paper. Just like to try stuff. We never know what might help.
Anything under .003 I would consider very good. My Lee collet/redding combo produces .0025 or less runout normally. A rcbs will be about .005-.006 for just a standard die with expander
Redding with vld stem (if needed) is my go to. Maybe your runout is caused from sizing but I don’t think your runout is an issue. I’d be happy with .002” runout
Redding with vld stem (if needed) is my go to. Maybe your runout is caused from sizing but I don’t think your runout is an issue. I’d be happy with .002” runout
I wasn't happy with my Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die and decided to try the LE Wilson in line seating die with micrometer and using the simple Harrell arbor press. I find I get where the mean average is less than .002 for my .308 and 6.5 PRC cases that I precision load for.
One of the things I feel has helped get my runout down load with LE Wilson die is that I turn my case necks to get rid of neck thickness variation. . .even though I use quality brass like Lapua. Though I don't think improving cartridge TIR's better than .003 or even from .004 makes any noticeable difference on targets (hardly even at distance) when using high quality barrels, I like to take care of all the things I can control, even if I can't really shoot the difference. When I take care of as many details as I can, I feel it's easier to determine where to look with issues knowing where I don't need to look.
K&M Arbor Press with standard force pack. No experience with the 21st Century Hydro press but I figure it'd be easier to read a dial indicator with a finer resolution on the K&M for a seating force than a 150 or 250 psi gauge on the 21st Century, which is why I went K&M Arbor Press. Also, I figure a hydraulic press would give less feedback/feel when seating.
Short Action Customs Infinity APS if you were going to eventually seat other cartridges other than 6.5cm. LE Wilson also makes nice inline dies although I've knocked over cases and spilled powder a few times (me problem) because the flat base doesn't capture the case and prevent it from knocking over, which is what makes me prefer my Infinity APS.
If you are shooting any kind of 'match' chamber, the clearance around the bullet in the freebore section of the chamber is way tighter than the runout that you are experiencing. As an example... I shoot a lot of .308 Win. Bullet diameter is right around 0.3080, maybe 0.3081. It's *very* common to see match .308 chambers with the freebore diameter listed as 0.3085". That's right, less than a half a thou clearance all around. And that's before any fouling, etc. Even if you are 'jumping' the bullet a fair amount - 20, 30, 50 thou or more - that bullet is going to be going into the rifling pretty damn straight - regardless of what your loaded round TIR is.
Some of these dimensions may vary by caliber ie .223 Rem is even tighter than .308 Win, but the general concepts hold.
Is it an excuse for sloppy reloading technique? Of course not.
Does it mean that you *shouldn't* use an inline seater of some sort that minimizes TIR? I don't think so, personally.
But does it mean that you're probably going to see minimal, if any, returns on a 'better' seating die than what you already have? Probably.
Some of these dimensions may vary by caliber ie .223 Rem is even tighter than .308 Win, but the general concepts hold.
Is it an excuse for sloppy reloading technique? Of course not.
Does it mean that you *shouldn't* use an inline seater of some sort that minimizes TIR? I don't think so, personally.
But does it mean that you're probably going to see minimal, if any, returns on a 'better' seating die than what you already have? Probably.
Both excellent. I have the BC micron arbor die and K&M press with a hydro gauge made by DC Firearms. Very satisfied
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@memilanuk post above is spot on. Personally, I would not go the arbor route if concentricity is your only reason.
I went the arbor route early this year but not for concentricity or seating depth precision. The reason most competitive shooters go with an arbor die and arbor press is the ability of this system to indicate seating pressure. In-line arbor dies and arbor presses permit direct feedback to the reloader regarding seating pressure because their design makes them very sensitive to seating pressure changes from neck tension and friction. And most competitive shooters will tell you that neck tension/friction consistency is key to precision. if you want to go further, a K&M press with a pressure pack or a 21st Century Hydro press will give you quantitative results to compare seating pressure. Also, DC FIREARMS makes an excellent hydro gauge that fits on the K&M press. If money is no concern, the AMP press goes the extreme with all the pressure graphs. Many competitive shooters will use the arbor-type dies to separate loaded cartridges that they consider “outliers“ with excessive seating pressure or very low pressure. They may use these as fouling shots before shooting for record.
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Supposedly, Keith Glasscock (aka "Winning in the Wind on YT/Patreon) has a video in the queue comparing exactly that. I think he teased something to the effect of the Micron seater giving very slightly better runout numbers. Don't quote me on the numbers, but it sounded fairly tiny - might have been just the SD, though.
Not sure if it'd be worth spending 2x on the Micron seater vs the Wilson, unless you just like the nice/shiny stuff. I've got an old Wilson seater, with an aftermarket (Sinclair) micrometer top - it's *that* old - and I'm trying to convince myself that it's "wore out" and I should replace it
Supposedly, Keith Glasscock (aka "Winning in the Wind on YT/Patreon) has a video in the queue comparing exactly that. I think he teased something to the effect of the Micron seater giving very slightly better runout numbers. Don't quote me on the numbers, but it sounded fairly tiny - might have been just the SD, though.
Not sure if it'd be worth spending 2x on the Micron seater vs the Wilson, unless you just like the nice/shiny stuff. I've got an old Wilson seater, with an aftermarket (Sinclair) micrometer top - it's *that* old - and I'm trying to convince myself that it's "wore out" and I should replace it
Also, if you go the BC route, they sell factory seconds. My BC micron 308 arbor die was a factory second. Saved me $65. Only a small blemish on the finish. No functional impact.
I'd qualify that with "for some definition of 'competitive' shooter"... for BR, and a lot of the F-class crowd, sure. ELR too. Personally, I don't think anyone shooting any 'other' type of competition where the emphasis is more on shooter / positional skills is going to benefit very much from going to the inline dies & arbor press, instrumented or not. It certainly shouldn't *hurt* them any; I just don't think it's worth the hassle compared to a good micrometer seater from Forster, Redding or Whidden. No personal experience to date with the RCBS or Hornady versions.
It's not slower - I actually find it to be a little quicker. Think about what's happening when you seat with a standard press during seating:
- You put the bullet on the charged case and put it in the shell holder on the press - how well is it lined up?
- You take this big handle pull it all the way down so the ram can go all the way up into the seating die.
- The bullet engages the seating stem and gets pushed in.
- You push the handle all the way back up so the ram can move everything all the way back down.
- You pull the finished round out of the shell holder.
So you have all that movement to do what? Move a bullet less than half an inch.
Now, let's look at what happens with an arbor press:
- You put the bullet on the charged case, put it inside the inline seater and set it under the arbor.
- You pull the much shorter arbor press handle until it engages the seater (if you've set everything correctly, it's less than about 1/2 an inch) then push it down another sub-1/2 inch
- Release the handle, pick up the seater and let the finished round slide out.
Benefits of an arbor press:
- Less movement = more efficient
- Less opportunity for error
- You can measure your seating forces so you can improve your process
I consider getting an arbor press to be one of the best additions to my reloading process I've ever done. The jury is out as to whether it produces better ammo than a high-quality seating die - but that's not why it's so important - it's the information it yields.
Exactly what I observed from watching that process on YouTube. Yet lots of people suggest it is slower.
I have decided I will order a k&m arbor press with std force pack. However still can't decide if I want to purchase a sinclair/wilson or micron inline seating die. Anyone have advice on these two? Don't have a need for the SAC since only load for one caliber primarily.
Whether it's faster or slower, it's not enough to be a deciding factor.
Good move.
I use Wilson plus a very expensive custom die made for my 37XC. That caliber is going to be the death of me...
I don't think you can go wrong with either.
One other major benefit (unless you have a range in your back yard) is that the K&M is portable. You can take it to the range to do seating depth testing. Load every round to the longest you want to test, and simply adjust down by .003" per test group. This allows you to save a lot of unnecessary test rounds if you find a good seating depth early in the test. It also allows you to find something that may work with like 3 rounds, then, while still at the range, test a larger sample size. This is a big advantage.
ONE BIG WARNING: If you take your K&M to the range, take something like a moving blanket and spread it out under the bench. If you drop the top of the die/seating stem and it lands on concrete, there is a good chance you ding up the seating stem and it will cease to work. Ask me how I know... I ordered some extras and keep them on hand
Honestly, you're overthinking it. Both will do the job. I am a big fan of LE Wilson and I know you can't go wrong with their seaters. I don't have any experience with Micron, so can't comment on them directly.
I received my k&m arbor press with std load pack and went with the Sinclair/Wilson inline seater.
This was to replace my redding competition seater on area 419 press.
Weird thing is my bullet runout has doubled with the Wilson die setup. It was about 0.002 average with very good standard deviation. The Wilson/k&m setup is a little over 0.004. Couple as high as 0.007. Nothing changed but this new seater setup. I was at least hoping to retain or improve my runout while getting some seating load numbers.
I am wondering if my die is setup incorrectly. I followed instructions of setting in middle of micrometer numbers and screwing the stem in the die top until get height i need. It seems odd that the stem had to be screwed way below top of this stem cap. However, I got the seating depth I want.
Ammo shoots great (0.300s to about 0.450). Low ES and SD on velocity. Only weird thing is twice the runout.
Any ideas? As I stated in my original post my case neck runout is 0.001. Weird an inline bullet seater would add 0.003 MORE.
This was to replace my redding competition seater on area 419 press.
Weird thing is my bullet runout has doubled with the Wilson die setup. It was about 0.002 average with very good standard deviation. The Wilson/k&m setup is a little over 0.004. Couple as high as 0.007. Nothing changed but this new seater setup. I was at least hoping to retain or improve my runout while getting some seating load numbers.
I am wondering if my die is setup incorrectly. I followed instructions of setting in middle of micrometer numbers and screwing the stem in the die top until get height i need. It seems odd that the stem had to be screwed way below top of this stem cap. However, I got the seating depth I want.
Ammo shoots great (0.300s to about 0.450). Low ES and SD on velocity. Only weird thing is twice the runout.
Any ideas? As I stated in my original post my case neck runout is 0.001. Weird an inline bullet seater would add 0.003 MORE.
Yes i did. I have the Sinclair/Wilson version of die. Sinclair didn't have the vld stem so Wilson sent me it. It says on box it is Sinclair stem? Makes me wonder though. Not sure how it would cause high runout even if wrong one.
There's space inside the seating dies (whether inline or standard) for the bullet to be pushed in "crooked" by a seating stem that doesn't fully support the bullet nose/ogive profile. Another thing that can happen is if you over tighten the set screw for the stem cap which will make the stem canted. Try leaving it a little loose and see if that doesn't solve the problem.
You did make me go look at box it came in. It says it is sinclair/Wilson vld drift assembly stainless steel cap. However, the product number on box is BSA-V65S. Sinclair website has it as BSD-V65. It looks the same as the standard stem assembly that came with the diebut my bullets definitely fit nicer in the VLD stem that Wilson sent me separately. I guess I need to call back Wilson. Still doubting this would cause high runout but very possible.
That would be very possible. Will try. Thanks! The instructions says there is "fiber pad" between the stem and set screw." Suppose to cushion and keep from canting the stem? But I think you are on to my problem. Thanks!
Another method to counter the cant caused by tightening the set screw is to install a setscrew (3/8"x24) on top of the seating stem and tighten the set screw down on the seating stem to lock it in place. This will push the stem straight down to lock it. Take the time to measure CBTO after tightening the set screw as it will push the stem down farther into the cap.
Problem was solved with the set screw pushing the stem crooked. Back to straight 0.002 to 0.003 runout.
Good idea on the set screw on the top of the seater stem/cap assembly! Honestly, disappointed with the design of this die. Relying on a set screw to hold the stem from turning seems like a bad idea.
May try the set screw on top instead of the one perpendicular to stem.
Good idea on the set screw on the top of the seater stem/cap assembly! Honestly, disappointed with the design of this die. Relying on a set screw to hold the stem from turning seems like a bad idea.
May try the set screw on top instead of the one perpendicular to stem.
Actually my runout issue is not solved. Not a big fan of this sinclair Wilson seater. The standard stem worked decent for just few test cases but have loaded several and average close to 0.004 like the vld stem. I tried everything including swapping caps with stems since both stems came with cap too.
I decided to try going back to seating with my redding threaded comp die in area 419 press and right back to 0.002!
I am not necessarily chasing best runout but decided I want to use my k&m arbor press since has load pack to see seating force.
So I am going to order another die. Waste? Probably. But I like tinkering and testing. It's just so I am. Give me confidence I am doing all I can to improve all aspects.
Wanted a Micron from the start but they told me yesterday will be at least two months before in stock. Wondering if the Short Action Customs would work better for me? Any suggestions or even another arbor die from another company?
I decided to try going back to seating with my redding threaded comp die in area 419 press and right back to 0.002!
I am not necessarily chasing best runout but decided I want to use my k&m arbor press since has load pack to see seating force.
So I am going to order another die. Waste? Probably. But I like tinkering and testing. It's just so I am. Give me confidence I am doing all I can to improve all aspects.
Wanted a Micron from the start but they told me yesterday will be at least two months before in stock. Wondering if the Short Action Customs would work better for me? Any suggestions or even another arbor die from another company?
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Just wait for the micron. You indicated that you only load for the 6.5 CM , so the SAC infinity would be overkill. I don’t have experience with the infinity die but it has too many moving parts for my like. Invites tolerance stacking.
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SAC Infinity may not give you better results if your component quality is the variable. The main benefit of the SAC is really the modularity and the amount of seating stems you get. I get the same results with the SAC Infinity as I did with the LE Wilson, which is less than 0.001 to 0.002 runout.
IF the SAC does better, I would theorize it's because the seating stem matches the bullet better or the centering sleeve and base keeps the case more aligned when seating compared to the reamed body of the LE Wilson die that may have a little bit clearance that allows the sized case to move slightly when seating.
Decided to talk with LE Wilson customer service. They agreed is odd every way i tried this die setup i would go from 0.001 neck runout to 0.004 BULLET runout. Even when same setup but use my Redding Comp seater on area 419 press and I get 0.002 all day long for bullet runout. I talked to Tarina and she was extremely helpful and I am going to send die plus both stem assemblies back to them. Will send 3 cases, 3 berger hybrid 140s, 3 hornady 143 eld-x and see what they can figure out. By the way both bullets reacted the exact same way for runout.
Will see what they find.
Will see what they find.
I don't want to hijack the thread, but I have a different problem with my LE Wilson in-line seater.
I too was trying to eliminate runout, and bought the k&m (n?) Arbor die, and Wilson in-line die. Everything else stayed the same in this order for my weight selected RWS cases, now twice fired ;
Deprimed using RCBS universal depriming die.
Cleaned in stainless pin wet tumble.
Lubed on rubber pad using RCBS case lube on neck area mostly.
Q-tipped lube inside neck.
Ran up into RCBS neck sizing die.
Checked cartridge length, well within tolerance.
Recleaned in wet pins to remove sizing lube.
Hand primed.
Charged individually.
Set up my new 300 WM in line seater, and wanted to initially seat the entire batch a little long, so that I could go back and reseat to exact length.
But the bullet (Hornady 208 gr. ELD-M) wouldn't go into the case. There was no way for the gimpy handle on the arbor press to push the bullet in. I took everything out and apart and checked that it was indeed 300 win mag parts, and the die was the (expensive) optional VLD stem. The bullet just wouldn't do into the neck mouth.
I took the sizing stem out of the neck sizing die and it measures .3065", but it is the same one I ussd before when seating with the RCBS die in the rockchucker, so I didn't suspect that as the problem.
My suspicion is that the bullet is getting so accurately lined up with the neck, and not "slightly sideways twisted in" that it took a little more force to get past the initial penetration. So I tapped the top with a plastic mallet to get it it initially penetrated, the the rest slid in very smoothly (there's a joke in there somewhere, I'm sure) with slight pressure on the arbor press handle.
The only thing wrong is that the seating stem has deformed the bullet. Photo attached, if it works.
Either it's been doing this forever, but I haven't noticed it because of the pressure used with the rockchucker, or the pin tumbling might be mushrooming the necks. But..... i recently loaded some 30-06 brass using the new inline seater, and it was all OK,. The only difference was using a Nosler Partition, which theoretically should be harder to 'penetrate' as it doesn't have a boattail.
Photo didn't work.
I too was trying to eliminate runout, and bought the k&m (n?) Arbor die, and Wilson in-line die. Everything else stayed the same in this order for my weight selected RWS cases, now twice fired ;
Deprimed using RCBS universal depriming die.
Cleaned in stainless pin wet tumble.
Lubed on rubber pad using RCBS case lube on neck area mostly.
Q-tipped lube inside neck.
Ran up into RCBS neck sizing die.
Checked cartridge length, well within tolerance.
Recleaned in wet pins to remove sizing lube.
Hand primed.
Charged individually.
Set up my new 300 WM in line seater, and wanted to initially seat the entire batch a little long, so that I could go back and reseat to exact length.
But the bullet (Hornady 208 gr. ELD-M) wouldn't go into the case. There was no way for the gimpy handle on the arbor press to push the bullet in. I took everything out and apart and checked that it was indeed 300 win mag parts, and the die was the (expensive) optional VLD stem. The bullet just wouldn't do into the neck mouth.
I took the sizing stem out of the neck sizing die and it measures .3065", but it is the same one I ussd before when seating with the RCBS die in the rockchucker, so I didn't suspect that as the problem.
My suspicion is that the bullet is getting so accurately lined up with the neck, and not "slightly sideways twisted in" that it took a little more force to get past the initial penetration. So I tapped the top with a plastic mallet to get it it initially penetrated, the the rest slid in very smoothly (there's a joke in there somewhere, I'm sure) with slight pressure on the arbor press handle.
The only thing wrong is that the seating stem has deformed the bullet. Photo attached, if it works.
Either it's been doing this forever, but I haven't noticed it because of the pressure used with the rockchucker, or the pin tumbling might be mushrooming the necks. But..... i recently loaded some 30-06 brass using the new inline seater, and it was all OK,. The only difference was using a Nosler Partition, which theoretically should be harder to 'penetrate' as it doesn't have a boattail.
Photo didn't work.
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