So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today

#551
Make a PRS Mad Max match.

The shittier the rifles, the better. Bulk ammo. Chicom MIL scopes with MOA reticles. Duct tape, foam and one legged "bipods". Kentucky windage, guess your MV. Dope cards written only with red lipstick on masking tape glued to your forearm.
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#552
Badjujuu said:
Make a PRS Mad Max match.

The shittier the rifles, the better. Bulk ammo. Chicom MIL scopes with MOA reticles. Duct tape, foam and one legged "bipods". Kentucky windage, guess your MV. Dope cards written only with red lipstick on masking tape glued to your forearm.
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Wasn’t there a time when the national matches were shot with firearms and ammunition provided by the organizers?
 
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#554
Rob01 said:
I know the Allegheny Sniper Challenge tried that to level the field and they tried to have everyone use the same provided ammo at one Fall Bash I think but hadn’t heard of any others.
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I was referring to the Camp Perry National Rifle and Pistol Matches. My chosen nomenclature was admittedly poor.
 
#557
stanley_white said:
PRS matches televised like Mystery Science Three Thousand with three Sniper’s Hide members talking trash about the competitors is something I would watch.

-Stan
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Only if the three commentators were Frank, a top team PRS shooter and a non- competing home range shooter. That way there would be extra conflict.

Every so often there would be a change up of one or more commentators plus occasional guests.
 
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#558
ma smith said:
Biathlon is the only shooting sport that doesn't suck to watch. Not sure they are gonna get a pass on "contrived and repetitive nature of stages today".
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No offense. There's other shooting sports that are fun to watch. This game is two shooters side by side standing. On the command, drop and hit 3 uneven distance targets faster than the other guy. Winner moves on.


👇Jump to the 4:45 min mark unless you want to see the people who aren't too bored to come watch. At 4:45 you can watch the non boring shooting getting going. Here it's start in prone, rapid fire unknown distance shooting at a single target with rifles that don't use muzzle brakes and irons. Where semi auto mil shooters can compete right next to civilian bolt gun shooters. Multiple shooters on the line simultaneously. Most impacts in the short time span wins. Typically the bolt guns are faster.


No way they could implement some kind picture in picture for context in PRS/NRL/22 videos....its never been done. Nevermind this video being 10yrs old.
 
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#560
Rob01 said:
I’d rather watch a rerun of the King of Queens than any of that. Lol
Click to expand...
The point is there is plenty of precedence for adequately transferring what is going on. I don't have a F'n clue what they are saying and we easily follow along with what they are doing. You get the format, the targets, and feedback immediately if it was a hit or miss amd where.

It doesn't matter if YOU don't like it. 😉

If they followed this precedent combined with actually speaking/narrating in our native language, show multiple angles (maybe drone footage), add hit indicator lights next to the steel, quick COF descriptors at the onset or color commentary by Rob01 and Maser.... then Joe Mamma and Joe Nobody at home could easily follow along with a PRS stage.
 
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#562
DFOOSKING said:
No offense. There's other shooting sports that are fun to watch. This game is two shooters side by side standing. On the command, drop and hit 3 uneven distance targets faster than the other guy. Winner moves on.


👇Jump to the 4:45 min mark unless you want to see the people who aren't too bored to come watch. At 4:45 you can watch the non boring shooting getting going. Here it's start in prone, rapid fire unknown distance shooting at a single target with rifles that don't use muzzle brakes and irons. Where semi auto mil shooters can compete right next to civilian bolt gun shooters. Multiple shooters on the line simultaneously. Most impacts in the short time span wins. Typically the bolt guns are faster.


No way they could implement some kind picture in picture for context in PRS/NRL/22 videos....its never been done. Nevermind this video being 10yrs old.
Click to expand...

That first vid is awesome!

The other two…zzzzzzz

The closer a comp comes to speed, multiple targets, one shot hit=clear, the cooler it is for me. Closer to pdog shooting lol

Those dudes in the first vid are studs.
 
#563
Rob01 said:
Random draw sucks. I thought it 15-20 years ago when I was top 5 shooter and think it now when I am a mid pack shooter. Might as well give everyone a trophy too. LOL
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Sounds like moralizing, not strategizing. If the objective is to grow the sport, i.e., more people paying match fees, then you do what's needed to engage newer shooters. If folks in the top 5% choose not to participate because of their view of the prize table - so what? There will be a new top 5% and, theoretically, more overall shooters. As far as the PRS and the MDs are concerned, they all pay the same fees...
 
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#565
mkollman74 said:
Sounds like moralizing, not strategizing. If the objective is to grow the sport, i.e., more people paying match fees, then you do what's needed to engage newer shooters. If folks in the top 5% choose not to participate because of their view of the prize table - so what? There will be a new top 5% and, theoretically, more overall shooters. As far as the PRS and the MDs are concerned, they all pay the same fees...
Click to expand...

Seems like someone has a little heartburn with my opinions. Well sorry they hurt your feelings but I stand by it. I hate random tables and I am not a top shooter any longer. I am mid pack. I like to reward people who do the work to win but if you would rather give everyone a trophy then that’s your opinion.

mkollman74 said:
Hmmm.... take one of you or five new shooters... what to do...?:rolleyes::unsure:
Click to expand...

Hmmm a show that sucks and boring to watch that shooters won’t watch and new shooters might watch but not understand? Yeah let’s make that. Lol
 
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#566
Rob01 said:
Seems like someone has a little heartburn with my opinions. Well sorry they hurt your feelings but I stand by it. I hate random tables and I am not a top shooter any longer. I am mid pack. I like to reward people who do the work to win but if you would rather give everyone a trophy then that’s your opinion.



Hmmm a show that sucks and boring to watch that shooters won’t watch and new shooters might watch but not understand? Yeah let’s make that. Lol
Click to expand...
Rob, I also disagree with you on this one. You seem very attached to this particular opinion. Fair enough, but disagreeing with you doesn’t make us whiny new age girlie men.
 
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#567
Emerson0311 said:
Rob, I also disagree with you on this one. You seem very attached to this particular opinion. Fair enough, but disagreeing with you doesn’t make us whiny new age girlie men.
Click to expand...

Ok not new age girlie men. Lol I wouldn’t say that but we will all just have to agree to disagree on this one as I won’t change my mind. I like awarding someone who spent time perfecting their sport and not just someone who is lucky. As I said I have been on both sides and still feel the same way.
 
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#569
My opinion items on tables are not trophies they are gear/reloading items meant to be used. We see it all the time here. Guy wins a 2 day match picks up a leupold mark 5 and on Monday it's listed for sale. I hate when people say well they sell to offset their expenses. Why are manufacturers that donated helping cover a shooters expenses. That is laughable in my opinion. Idk how manufacturers feel about that subject but I can see them not caring because it's brand exposure and thats all they probably care about. To me I get happy seeing a guy pick up an awesome prize that he can actually use and just not sell it.
 
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#570
EbTac said:
My opinion items on tables are not trophies they are gear/reloading items meant to be used. We see it all the time here. Guy wins a 2 day match picks up a leupold mark 5 and on Monday it's listed for sale. I hate when people say well they sell to offset their expenses. Why are manufacturers that donated helping cover a shooters expenses. That is laughable in my opinion. Idk how manufacturers feel about that subject but I can see them not caring because it's brand exposure and thats all they probably care about. To me I get happy seeing a guy pick up an awesome prize that he can actually use and just not sell it.
Click to expand...
Nothing is stopping the last place guy, selling his prize from random table. How do you stop that? Magical fairy dust?
 
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#571
Rob01 said:
I’d rather watch a rerun of the King of Queens than any of that. Lol
Click to expand...
Do you think watching (vs shooting) a typical PRS event is more exciting than watching that first vid of the tournament of dueling shooters?

The duel is called felthurtigskyting, literally field-rapid-shooting. First time I’ve ever seen it and it took me a sec to figure out wtf was happening due to the language barrier. But once I did I got hooked.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Nordic field rapid shooting - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

I imagine shooting a felthurtigskyting would be quite heart pounding and a fair bit more exciting than shooting in a typical PRS/NRL event. But this is just speculation as I haven’t shot in any competition, ever.

The second two vids are vaguely technically interesting but boring as heck, I agree. Basically watching a Jerry Miculek speed shooter, which for me gets old quick. But perhaps I didn’t understand that style of comp?
 
#572
EbTac said:
@Rob01 how would you feel if top 5 got a cash payout then did a random draw table. Also cash to stage winners.
Click to expand...

What about that guy that came in 6th and spent the time practicing and get a hat and the guy who doesn't put in any effort and comes in 99th out of 100 gets a new scope? MDs can do what they want but I think they should go to the table in their respective placement in the match.
 
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#573
carbonbased said:
Do you think watching (vs shooting) a typical PRS event is more exciting than watching that first vid of the tournament of dueling shooters?

The duel is called felthurtigskyting, literally field-rapid-shooting. First time I’ve ever seen it and it took me a sec to figure out wtf was happening due to the language barrier. But once I did I got hooked.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Nordic field rapid shooting - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

I imagine shooting a felthurtigskyting would be quite heart pounding and a fair bit more exciting than shooting in a typical PRS/NRL event. But this is just speculation as I haven’t shot in any competition, ever.

The second two vids are vaguely technically interesting but boring as heck, I agree. Basically watching a Jerry Miculek speed shooter, which for me gets old quick. But perhaps I didn’t understand that style of comp?
Click to expand...

Maybe it's just me but watching shooting is boring to me. I like to do it. Watching is blah. That sport you mentioned lost me at the red, white and blue shooting jackets and pants and the word "practical" describing it. lol I am not saying you shouldn't like it or watch it but just doesn't do anything for me.

1729030157414.jpeg
 
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#574
EbTac said:
My opinion items on tables are not trophies they are gear/reloading items meant to be used. We see it all the time here. Guy wins a 2 day match picks up a leupold mark 5 and on Monday it's listed for sale. I hate when people say well they sell to offset their expenses. Why are manufacturers that donated helping cover a shooters expenses. That is laughable in my opinion. Idk how manufacturers feel about that subject but I can see them not caring because it's brand exposure and thats all they probably care about. To me I get happy seeing a guy pick up an awesome prize that he can actually use and just not sell it.
Click to expand...
Run the prize table like the NFL draft. Last place gets first pick, because they need it the most. Shooters can sell their placement at the table, up until they are called to walk.
 
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#575
Late to the rant, but PRS has become very contrived. Even though I'm slow midpack mafia, its all about shots I would never take. I'm never going to be shooting off culverts, baricades or cattle gates. F class holds more interest for me as its about working my fundamentals and wind reading. I can get away with crappy technique in PRS (sometimes). Its fun to be out with the gang don't get me wrong, but the frustration with finding targets with failing eyesight (Ironnically i can see the damn deer and turkeys wandering across the stage) has led me on another path. Ironically prone stages are like "FREE POINTS BITCHES"

Speaking of biathalon, since I am in my weight loss jounrey, there needs to be more run+gun events. I'm slow AF there too, but there's a challenge, run a mile, drop a rack, rinse-repeat.

And everyone has a "gamer rifle" while next year I may shoot my AR-15 or M1A in PRS because why the hell not. Its my money, I wanna enjoy spending it. Switching to a backup when I FUBAR'd my muzzle break didn't really even change my score, but I had to go back to the AI so certain forum members can be taunted about its continual trigger failure to fail. (2nd barrel coming up! still ticking!)

ALso fuck your prize tables. Fucking participation trophy ninjas.
 
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#577
EbTac said:
My opinion items on tables are not trophies they are gear/reloading items meant to be used. We see it all the time here. Guy wins a 2 day match picks up a leupold mark 5 and on Monday it's listed for sale. I hate when people say well they sell to offset their expenses. Why are manufacturers that donated helping cover a shooters expenses. That is laughable in my opinion. Idk how manufacturers feel about that subject but I can see them not caring because it's brand exposure and thats all they probably care about. To me I get happy seeing a guy pick up an awesome prize that he can actually use and just not sell it.
Click to expand...

Hot take - The guy who wins the match is entitled to do whatever he pleases with the prize he picks up off of the table. Keep it, sell it, give it to a young gun? All are equally okay, though some may earn more respect than others. And bitching about it always stinks of sour grapes.

The Guardian doesn't have a standard prize table - they sell raffle tickets and use those to distribute items donated by manufacturers, with the proceeds going to charity. But then the Guardian isn't about competition, and as such it attracts a different crowd with different expectations.

If you want the PRS Pro Series to move to random draw prize tables you'll need to make a pretty significant cultural shift among the shooters who attend those matches - a move away from the idea that the format and series reward success and competitive excellence and towards the idea that it's about giving expensive stuff to guys who can't shoot while the guys who can need to be satisfied with a trophy and a handshake.
 
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#578
Tx_Aggie said:
Hot take - The guy who wins the match is entitled to do whatever he pleases with the prize he picks up off of the table. Keep it, sell it, give it to a young gun? All are equally okay, though some may earn more respect than others. And bitching about it always stinks of sour grapes.

The Guardian doesn't have a standard prize table - they sell raffle tickets and use those to distribute items donated by manufacturers, with the proceeds going to charity. But then the Guardian isn't about competition, and as such it attracts a different crowd with different expectations.

If you want the PRS Pro Series to move to random draw prize tables you'll need to make a pretty significant cultural shift among the shooters who attend those matches - a move away from the idea that the format and series reward success and competitive excellence and towards the idea that it's about giving expensive stuff to guys who can't shoot while the guys who can need to be satisfied with a trophy and a handshake.
Click to expand...
I understand that classic prize tables are shooter sponsorship that is non specific. Actually a great idea from the sponsors point of view. If your sponsored shooter doesn’t win, you paid for a loss. If the winner, whoever it is, gets your gear you, always pick the right guy to pay.
If the match registration is always full, wash, rinse, repeat, the model is sound.
 
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#579
Rob01 said:
Seems like someone has a little heartburn with my opinions. Well sorry they hurt your feelings but I stand by it. I hate random tables and I am not a top shooter any longer. I am mid pack. I like to reward people who do the work to win but if you would rather give everyone a trophy then that’s your opinion.



Hmmm a show that sucks and boring to watch that shooters won’t watch and new shooters might watch but not understand? Yeah let’s make that. Lol
Click to expand...
I have no heartburn over you... Overcome your inherent narcissism. I simply disagree with you RE: the best way to "grow the sport". Nevertheless, please continue with your ad hominem attacks.
RE: "a show that sucks, and is boring to watch.." - who exactly is watching...?
 
#580
mkollman74 said:
I have no heartburn over you... Overcome your inherent narcissism. I simply disagree with you RE: the best way to "grow the sport". Nevertheless, please continue with your ad hominem attacks.
RE: "a show that sucks, and is boring to watch.." - who exactly is watching...?
Click to expand...

LOL Not narcissism if you are quoting and addressing me. LOL You addressed me and I responded. Obviously you just want to ramble so go for it.
 
#581
Tx_Aggie said:
If you want the PRS Pro Series to move to random draw prize tables you'll need to make a pretty significant cultural shift among the shooters who attend those matches - a move away from the idea that the format and series reward success and competitive excellence and towards the idea that it's about giving expensive stuff to guys who can't shoot while the guys who can need to be satisfied with a trophy and a handshake.
Click to expand...
While I completely understand what you are saying and I totally get it. I'm 50/50 on both sides. I've always felt that we should have cash payout to top 5 shooters and then do random table. Hell I'd be ok with letting 6th through 10th walk first then do random table. I really don't care what people do with a table prizes, I just feel that it looks bad when it's the same 10 guys every weekend from a pro match and they pick up an expensive item then it's listed for sale the following Monday. So my point if that is happening most of the time are we really helping manufacturers with brand exposure? Is it in our best interests to continue to cater to your top 1% of members? Not arguing here just asking questions. I look at membership retention in the long run and in my opinion it serves me zero purpose to be a PRS member unless someone can give me very valid reasons to continue to pay for a membership year after year.
 
#582
EbTac said:
While I completely understand what you are saying and I totally get it. I'm 50/50 on both sides. I've always felt that we should have cash payout to top 5 shooters and then do random table. Hell I'd be ok with letting 6th through 10th walk first then do random table. I really don't care what people do with a table prizes, I just feel that it looks bad when it's the same 10 guys every weekend from a pro match and they pick up an expensive item then it's listed for sale the following Monday. So my point if that is happening most of the time are we really helping manufacturers with brand exposure? Is it in our best interests to continue to cater to your top 1% of members? Not arguing here just asking questions. I look at membership retention in the long run and in my opinion it serves me zero purpose to be a PRS member unless someone can give me very valid reasons to continue to pay for a membership year after year.
Click to expand...

Maybe if we taxed the top 1%? Wait where did I hear that before? Lol Just joking but seriously with the regional matches almost never having prize tables and only at finales and it only being a 2 day pro series match issue I think it’s just something that doesn’t need that much worry.

I do agree with PRS coming up with a better reason to be a member. Keeping score is not a good one unless you plan to hit a finale and with the BS at the AC regional Rimfire finale and PRS showing what they really care about I won’t be joining again next year. I will still shoot matches but see no benefit of the PRS for me. It’s a decision each shooter has to make.
 
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#583
Shitty shooters and people too scared to even shoot matches, bitching about PRS and how prize tables are run.

Instead of working hard and getting better, so they can earn nicer gear (that will never come close to the amount of money and time they spent already) its easier to bitch about how unfair it is.

Why should someone who sucks, doesn't practice, pay attention at the match or spend any time at it be rewarded? Even my first match ever where I knew nothing and didn't even have the right gear, I didn't come in last place. I don't even think i was bottom 10. But we need to reward shitty shooters for being lazy / dumb / poor shooters.

This whole thread is a case study in people who dont even play the game crying about how it should be different/better. Feel free to go start your own league where you can show everyone how it should be done.
 
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#584
Prize tables always bring out the stupid, jealous and narcissistic in people.

What if Prizes donated by sponsors.......are part of their marketing budgets? What if they don't give a fuck how they are distributed or who gets them as long as it gets more product into the hands of someone, while providing positive optics for the other 100-200 shooters who already spend a ton of money on this type of gear and makes them feel brand loyalty as such. If the people giving away the product don't care how they are dolled out, then why are you? Cry to a match director about how unfair their prize tables are and let us know how that goes for you. If you don't get told to fuck off, I would be surprised.

Maybe just maybe there are people at these companies who have calculated the cost to acquire and retain a customer and this is part of that budget.

80% of the people who read this still don't understand what is happening. You can't fix stupid.
 
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#585
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Shitty shooters and people too scared to even shoot matches, bitching about PRS and how prize tables are run.

Instead of working hard and getting better, so they can earn nicer gear (that will never come close to the amount of money and time they spent already) its easier to bitch about how unfair it is.

Why should someone who sucks, doesn't practice, pay attention at the match or spend any time at it be rewarded? Even my first match ever where I knew nothing and didn't even have the right gear, I didn't come in last place. I don't even think i was bottom 10. But we need to reward shitty shooters for being lazy / dumb / poor shooters.

This whole thread is a case study in people who dont even play the game crying about how it should be different/better. Feel free to go start your own league where you can show everyone how it should be done.
Click to expand...
Personally, I’m rarely below a top ten finish in the matches I shoot these days. Hard to get the shooter numbers up over 20 though. If registration is full in your AO, it works until it doesn’t.
 
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#586
EbTac said:
While I completely understand what you are saying and I totally get it. I'm 50/50 on both sides. I've always felt that we should have cash payout to top 5 shooters and then do random table. Hell I'd be ok with letting 6th through 10th walk first then do random table. I really don't care what people do with a table prizes, I just feel that it looks bad when it's the same 10 guys every weekend from a pro match and they pick up an expensive item then it's listed for sale the following Monday. So my point if that is happening most of the time are we really helping manufacturers with brand exposure? Is it in our best interests to continue to cater to your top 1% of members? Not arguing here just asking questions. I look at membership retention in the long run and in my opinion it serves me zero purpose to be a PRS member unless someone can give me very valid reasons to continue to pay for a membership year after year.
Click to expand...

Yeah, screw the guy who ends up 11th, right? No prize table walk for him, he should be happy with his random draw. Might as well have finished last.

You're making a lot of assumptions, none of which I'm sure are true:

  • That rewarding shooters who win and place well is bad, and instead rewarding shooters randomly is better.
  • That distributing prizes randomly will increase, and not instead decrease, participation.
  • That manufacturers and donors are harmed when people sell prizes, and are too stupid to realize it and so continue to donate anyways.
  • That running prize tables by order of finish somehow detracts from an MDs ability to provide a positive experience for the majority of shooters who don't end up with a podium or top 10 finish.
  • That your match fee pays for something other than the experience of shooting the match, and also somehow provides a guarantee of a nice prize.
  • That the fact that the same group of shooters consistently does well must indicate that the matches and/or series are somehow broken.
  • That you must be a PRS member to enjoy the matches within the series
  • That you must pay the PRS a membership fee in order for the organization to benefit from your participation.

Look, I've seen MDs and/or donors ear mark specific prizes (often scopes or nice rifles) for shooters who finish last, or are truly novice shooters, and it's always applauded by everyone present (and yes there is sometimes internet drama...but when is there not).

The MD at the NRL Hunter match in GA this year gave a $1000 training certificate (donated by Caylen at Modern Day Sniper) to the lowest scoring shooter. I though that was awesome, and a much better gift than a new rifle or scope would've been if the goal was really to encourage that person to continue shooting competitively. It's something I'd like to see done more often.

But I really don't think moving everything to random draw would be a positive. If anything it would discourage the folks at the greatest levels of participation in the hopes of attracting others who aren't yet participating at all.
 
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#587
Emerson0311 said:
Personally, I’m rarely below a top ten finish in the matches I shoot these days. Hard to get the shooter numbers up over 20 though. If registration is full in your AO, it works until it doesn’t.
Click to expand...

You're in BC? I can see how it could be hard to have the same number of shooters as somewhere like the southern or eastern US.
 
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#588
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Shitty shooters and people too scared to even shoot matches, bitching about PRS and how prize tables are run.

Instead of working hard and getting better, so they can earn nicer gear (that will never come close to the amount of money and time they spent already) its easier to bitch about how unfair it is.

Why should someone who sucks, doesn't practice, pay attention at the match or spend any time at it be rewarded? Even my first match ever where I knew nothing and didn't even have the right gear, I didn't come in last place. I don't even think i was bottom 10. But we need to reward shitty shooters for being lazy / dumb / poor shooters.

This whole thread is a case study in people who dont even play the game crying about how it should be different/better. Feel free to go start your own league where you can show everyone how it should be done.
Click to expand...
Ahh yes the Grand master of PRS has arrived. Let us poor shitty shooters bow down and kiss your feet lol. Why do you hate less talented shooters so much. I play the game. Have for 2 seasons now. Do I bitch about table walks? Absolutely not. I'm happy for those top shooters they do deserve it. I'm just bringing up conversation about member retention and bringing up what i think are positive ideas, like I've said I see both sides of it. I guess how do we get to a middle ground here? Do most of feel that the PRS is perfect as it is? Or do most you feel there needs to be change in a few areas? Most of you defend and attack the PRS out of the same mouth. I've tried bringing up positive points and I'm all for criticism but no one else has given there ideas on here to improve the sport besides mostly Frank, and you guys still mud stomp his ideas all in the name of "too much work involved" you would think paying a membership would be more than just a scoreboard. Just my 2 cents gents.
 
#589
Tx_Aggie said:
The MD at the NRL Hunter match in GA this year gave a $1000 training certificate (donated by Caylen at Modern Day Sniper) to the lowest scoring shooter. I though that was awesome, and a much better gift than a new rifle or scope would've been if the goal was really to encourage that person to continue shooting competitively. It's something I'd like to see done more often.
Click to expand...
Now that is a bad ass idea! Huge props to that MD.
 
#592
EbTac said:
I'm still relatively new to competitive shooting so I don't know all the nitty gritty to running a shooting organization, but are there any negatives to run one as a not for profit?
Click to expand...
There are zero negatives, you’ll become so rich running it and making all of these ideas come to life that Elon musk will make you director of the robot facility. Just let us know when the 1st match starts.
 
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#594
EbTac said:
Organizations not to run as not for profit:
Precision rifle series ✅️

Perfect got it.
Click to expand...
Yea. I think you’re getting it. Things that work require tons of fucking work and were voted on by money.

Ideas that sound cool on paper/forums did not last to this day. If they do, no one wants to run them because they are a pain to run.

I’ve never run a match but I’ve run tons of operations. The cool idea fairies never end and when you ask the cool idea guys to run it, they never will.
 
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