Higher quality trimmers worth it?

VandelayIndustries · Oct 16, 2024

I’m fine with paying for top quality equipment. Right now I’m using the Frankford arsenal trimmer. I’ve been eyeing a gen 3 Henderson. With all the extras it’s around $1100. Ouch. I understand it’ll save a bit of time over the Frankford, is there any noticeable difference as far as es and sd go?
I personally just trim, debur/chamfer one time and then only chamfer/debur if the brass gets dinged up.

03machstock · Oct 16, 2024

Not so much es or sd, but time. I can trim brass in my giraud crazy fast. It takes me like 15-20 minutes to do 500 pieces. Iv never actually timed myself but it’s so fast I just do it everytime because why not.

Herb Stoner · Oct 16, 2024

03machstock said:
Not so much es or sd, but time. I can trim brass in my giraud crazy fast. It takes me like 15-20 minutes to do 500 pieces. Iv never actually timed myself but it’s so fast I just do it everytime because why not.

I use a Giraud as well and the speed, consistency, and convenience are worth it for me. It chamfer both the inside and outside of the case mouth and does a great job. Haven’t used a Henderson but it looks like a sweet tool as well.

Watch the PX as a Giraud will pop up occasionally in the $500 range.

jetjock07 · Oct 16, 2024

I have the Henderson. Definitely will save you time and it’s very consistent. I like the fact that it registers off the base of the cartridge instead of the shoulder. Plus I don’t have to physically hold the piece of brass to trim. I haven’t timed my self but once you get your flow going I would say you can do a 100 in less than 5 minutes.

memilanuk · Oct 16, 2024

I hate to say it... but Hornady just dropped a Henderson clone / rip-off for their 2025 new product announcements. No idea what it's going to cost, or how it will actually compare to the original.

straightshooter1 · Oct 16, 2024

VandelayIndustries said:
I’m fine with paying for top quality equipment. Right now I’m using the Frankford arsenal trimmer. I’ve been eyeing a gen 3 Henderson. With all the extras it’s around $1100. Ouch. I understand it’ll save a bit of time over the Frankford, is there any noticeable difference as far as es and sd go?
I personally just trim, debur/chamfer one time and then only chamfer/debur if the brass gets dinged up.

I think whether you go with one of the more expensive 3 way trimming tools depends on how many different calibers you're reloading. I only precision reload for two calibers and use a Giraud Tri-way that I mount in a power drill. It's saves a LOT of time and I get very consistent results.

jetjock07 · Oct 16, 2024

memilanuk said:
I hate to say it... but Hornady just dropped a Henderson clone / rip-off for their 2025 new product announcements. No idea what it's going to cost, or how it will actually compare to the original.

Midway has it listed at 620. Looks like MSRP is around 775. There is a short intro video on YT.

smoothy8500 · Oct 17, 2024

jetjock07 said:
I like the fact that it registers off the base of the cartridge instead of the shoulder.

Why is that "better" than the shoulder?

jetjock07 · Oct 17, 2024

smoothy8500 said:
Why is that "better" than the shoulder?

If all things equal and you have an exact shoulder bump then it doesn’t matter. But from my experience, shoulder bump may vary some due to varying force during resizing or lube amounts, and if you are referencing off of shoulder then OAL of case will vary when trimmed. I just like the fact that the Henderson is referenced off of the base of cartridge. That way if you have a 1/2 thousandth or so discrepancy in shoulder bump, the OAL of case will be trimmed to same length. I feel either type will do just fine, just a personal preference. One of my main likes is that I don’t have to physical hold the case while trimming.

memilanuk · Oct 17, 2024

Because variations in headspace from case to case don't affect your trim length.

Individually, from one case to the next, of a given batch for a given gun, that shouldn't vary enough to matter. If it does, you have some other issues to track down and solve in your sizing process.

But if you have multiple guns/barrels in a particular cartridge, it's not always a given that the headspace or sizing die settings are going to be the same for each one. Depends on how you roll. Some people have different die settings for each barrel, some people have different *dies* dedicated to each barrel/gun. Some just say 'fuck it' and size everything with one die/setting and it works for them.

With the fairly recent advent of easily/commonly available chambered pre-fit barrels, all done to a common spec, it's probably less of an issue than it used to be, when the headspace between say, a factory barrel and a custom barrel done by a gunsmith might be very different from one another.

jpjulian · Oct 17, 2024

My Giraud trimmer is the one single piece of equipment I cannot do without. I no longer compete and need to trim 5,000 or so cases per year but that trimmer is indispensable to me.

TheOE800 · Oct 17, 2024

Well Hornady is coming out with a Henderson clone for next year..

vh20 · Oct 17, 2024

memilanuk said:
I hate to say it... but Hornady just dropped a Henderson clone / rip-off for their 2025 new product announcements. No idea what it's going to cost, or how it will actually compare to the original.

That has to be licensed from Henderson? Otherwise it’s a complete ripoff. Anyone know?

Entropicitis · Oct 17, 2024

vh20 said:
That has to be licensed from Henderson? Otherwise it’s a complete ripoff. Anyone know?

It's not. Todd found out about it when we did. Hornady is on the naughty list.

Baron85 · Oct 17, 2024

I use a giraurd. It is very worth it to me for the speed. I don’t fall into the category of thinking that every case needs to be trimmer to within .0001” of each other to perform well. I know I have measured consistency in the past with the giraurd but don’t remember the exact numbers. It has slight variances but plenty consistent and I don’t notice a difference on target.

Baron23 · Oct 17, 2024

I have a Giraud and am extremely happy with it. However, I suggest that anyone who gets a Giraud spend another $66 including shipping (and yes, they rape for shipping) and get the K&M Power Adapter (etc, shown below). This a very quick collet type hand tool to keep the vibration out of your fingers. Sort of like the Henderson in that respect. Its great quality, not much money, and works extremely well.

memilanuk · Oct 17, 2024

Interesting... I have the K&M case holder (basically a handle around an ER collet) and have been considering using it with the Giraud as well.

vh20 · Oct 17, 2024

Entropicitis said:
It's not. Todd found out about it when we did. Hornady is on the naughty list.

Did he not patent it? If so, I'd think he would have an infringement claim. This is the second thread today that shows that Hornady has given up on innovation and moved to straight-up copying their competitors (the other one is about their new Sierra and Berger-clone bullets). Did the Russians or Chinese take them over?

Baron23 · Oct 17, 2024

vh20 said:
Did he not patent it? If so, I'd think he would have an infringement claim. This is the second thread today that shows that Hornady has given up on innovation and moved to straight-up copying their competitors (the other one is about their new Sierra and Berger-clone bullets). Did the Russians or Chinese take them over?

What do you think is patentable state of the art in the Henderson trimmer?

vh20 · Oct 17, 2024

Geez, lighten up, Francis. I have no idea, but it’s a lot more complicated/techically complex, and uniquely designed than an Atlas bipod, and they’re definitely patented.

ma smith · Oct 17, 2024

Baron23 said:
What do you think is patentable sate of the art in the Henderson trimmer?

Nothing...FFS henderson used Forster 3-way trimmer ("cutting") modules in the early models...

eg, https://www.amazon.com/Forster-Products-Mouth-Cutter-6-5mm/dp/B00EWH5JNU

vh20 · Oct 17, 2024

Not that I care, but if the Giraud can be patented (and it is), then I would assume Henderson could have done the same.

biggershooter · Oct 17, 2024

VandelayIndustries said:
I’m fine with paying for top quality equipment.

I'm fine paying less for good-enough equipment.

Size and trim/debur/chamfer on a progressive (Hornady LNL AP). Size in the first station, then half way around the trimmer is a Lee Deluxe Power Quick Trim - https://leeprecision.com/deluxe-power-quick-trim

ma smith · Oct 17, 2024

vh20 said:
Not that I care, but if the Giraud can be patented (and it is), then I would assume Henderson could have done the same.

Henderson's design was never novel as a trimmer, the original model used COTS parts by forster, and added power.

None of the business end of this device was ever novel original...see eg ...
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012705215?pid=644779

Hederson's unit works mostly because he innovated on the "mechanical brass holder" part, and that is wha let(s) you use the forster trimmer in a faster/easier/more ergonomic way.

On the topic of giraud...

Giraud designed his unit from scratch...And Giraud has made monopoly profits his design for 20 years...

After 20 years this is supposed to be a public good...that's the whole point of rewarding innovation with a patent...

Application US09/981,366 events

2001-10-17 Application filed by Individual
2001-10-17 Priority to US09/981,366
2002-11-26 Application granted
2002-11-26 Publication of US6484616B1
2021-10-17 Anticipated expiration
Status Expired - Lifetime

Harman117 · Oct 17, 2024

The new Hornady trimmer does look to have some improvements/more features over the Henderson. (As it should since the Henderson has been out for a while)

Time will tell if the new Hornady unit can match the performance/longevity of the Henderson. As a consumer, I welcome the competition (that's capitalism baby) but I also get that it kind of sucks for Henderson. Business is tough. And this is coming from someone who literally purchased a Henderson a few weeks ago.

To the OP's original question: Having an automated 3-way case trimmer (length, chamfer, and deburr) is a massive time savings. The Henderson has been fantastically precise and accurate too.

I'll never go back to a manual process now. The time savings is akin to going from manually trickling powder to an automatic thrower.

Baron23 · Oct 17, 2024

ma smith said:
Nothing...FFS henderson used Forster 3-way trimmer ("cutting") modules in the early models...

eg, https://www.amazon.com/Forster-Products-Mouth-Cutter-6-5mm/dp/B00EWH5JNU

Yeah…that’s why I asked.

vh20 said:
Not that I care, but if the Giraud can be patented (and it is), then I would assume Henderson could have done the same.

Patented or applied for patent. If the former, do you know which part(s) were patented?

kthomas · Oct 17, 2024

jpjulian said:
My Giraud trimmer is the one single piece of equipment I cannot do without. I no longer compete and need to trim 5,000 or so cases per year but that trimmer is indispensable to me.

There are a few tools in the reloading room that have made reloading more bearable for me.

One of those is the the Giraud trimmer. Others are the AMP annealer and CPS primer.

John Glidewell · Oct 17, 2024

I still like my 21st century

vh20 · Oct 17, 2024

Baron23 said:
Yeah…that’s why I asked.

Patented or applied for patent. If the former, do you know which part(s) were patented?

No, and I couldn’t care less. It was just a simple observation that one would “think” he could have found a way to patent some aspect of it. You asked what state of the art technology I thought should be the consideration for a Henderson patent . I know nothing of patent law, but I can observe that that is certainly not a requirement (thus my mention of an Atlas bipod patent - It’s an idea, not a technology, and based on geometry thousands of years old). If there’s no aspect of the Henderson that could be patented, then that’s the simple answer to my question. I have a Giraud, and have never used a Henderson, so I’m not familiar with the design. But I still remain surprised if he couldn’t find a way to patent some aspect of it (and my “guess” is that maybe he didn’t try, but that’s unfounded).

375fan · Oct 17, 2024

Got a Henderson awhile back..money well spent. It's great, fast, easy and the 3 way cutters do a great job.

ma smith · Oct 17, 2024

Baron23 said:
Patented or applied for patent. If the former, do you know which part(s) were patented?

here ya go, it was granted to giraud but has expired...

2002-11-26 Application granted
2002-11-26 Publication of US6484616B1
2021-10-17 Anticipated expiration

Im2bent · Oct 17, 2024

Baron23 · Oct 17, 2024

ma smith said:
here ya go, it was granted to giraud but has expired...

2002-11-26 Application granted
2002-11-26 Publication of US6484616B1
2021-10-17 Anticipated expiration

Thanks

This appears to be the crux of why they issued a patent..

While many devices exist to trim the excess material from a resized metallic cartridge case, none are known to index the cartridge case to the cutting surfaces and remove the case from the cutting surface automatically or prevent the case from contacting the cutting surface without some action, namely physically moving the cutter and case away from each other.

Accordingly it is an object of this invention to trim the mouth of resized cartridge cases to the desired overall length by indexing the case off some known repeatable point of the case other than the case head, chamber the case mouth edges on both the inside and outside and outside surfaces, and automatically withdraw the case from the cutting blade when additional manual force is not applied. The cutting of material from the case neck stops when the cartridge case has engaged the case holder assembly and the moving portion of the case holder assembly reaches a mechanical stop.

vh20 · Oct 17, 2024

Unrelated to the discussion, but interestingly the Giraud case holders for the larger cartridges like 300PRC, the Norma and Lapua Magnums, etc, do not even have that feature (ie no moving parts). I believe he said there wasn’t room for the spring. None of mine have the spring (because I only load the larger cartridges) but it doesn’t seem to be a problem. I’m not sure I would even like that feature but then I haven’t tried one that had it.

kthomas · Oct 17, 2024

vh20 said:
Unrelated to the discussion, but interestingly the Giraud case holders for the larger cartridges like 300PRC, the Norma and Lapua Magnums, etc, do not even have that feature (ie no moving parts). I believe he said there wasn’t room for the spring. None of mine have the spring (because I only load the larger cartridges) but it doesn’t seem to be a problem. I’m not sure I would even like that feature but then I haven’t tried one that had it.

That's true. My .300NM is the same. I was told the same thing - not enough room for the spring mechanism.

It works just fine without the spring. Just don't try it on an aggressive trim

Baron85 · Oct 17, 2024

I have some spring and some no spring giraurd holders depending on the caliber. The only benefit to the spring one is I believe the inner part spins so your not trying to spin brass on stationary steel.

I haven’t actually looked that close but the spring loaded ones seem easier to spin the brass.

Rob01 · Oct 17, 2024

jetjock07 said:
I have the Henderson. Definitely will save you time and it’s very consistent. I like the fact that it registers off the base of the cartridge instead of the shoulder. Plus I don’t have to physically hold the piece of brass to trim. I haven’t timed my self but once you get your flow going I would say you can do a 100 in less than 5 minutes.

You can do 20 per minute or one case every 3 seconds? That’s pretty impressive.

OP I have been using the Giraud for many years and love it. Fast and the whole measuring off the shoulder makes no difference in accuracy. Whatever you get make sure it trims, chamfers and deburrs in one step. That will save you time.

jetjock07 · Oct 17, 2024

Rob01 said:
You can do 20 per minute or one case every 3 seconds? That’s pretty impressive.

OP I have been using the Giraud for many years and love it. Fast and the whole measuring off the shoulder makes no difference in accuracy. Whatever you get make sure it trims, chamfers and deburrs in one step. That will save you time.

As I said I haven’t timed myself, give or take but it’s way faster than what I started out with.

Rob01 · Oct 17, 2024

jetjock07 said:
As I said I haven’t timed myself, give or take but it’s way faster than what I started out with.

That wasn’t shady as I was actually impressed. You should time yourself next time lol

jetjock07 · Oct 17, 2024

Rob01 said:
That wasn’t shady as I was actually impressed. You should time yourself next time lol

vh20 · Oct 18, 2024

My OCD talking here...I've seen the videos of the Henderson and now Hornady trimmer, with them running light speed and dropping the cases into a bin. I'm only loading big, heavy cases, and it seems like every time I drop one more than 3 inches it lands on the mouth and puts a flat spot in it, which then presumably changes the neck tension/interference fit I worked so hard to get with the resizing/mandrel-ing operations before trimming. I'm sure their process is inconsequential, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it that way.

memilanuk · Oct 18, 2024

Same. I'd probably rig up some sort of ramp/trough to catch the cases and let them roll/slide down into the bin. Maybe with a bit of padding along the way to soften the trip.

DeathBeforeDismount · Oct 18, 2024

memilanuk said:
I hate to say it... but Hornady just dropped a Henderson clone / rip-off for their 2025 new product announcements. No idea what it's going to cost, or how it will actually compare to the original.

Fuck hornady. Stealing designs and making shit in China. Anyone who buys that shit deserves to get aids.

vh20 · Oct 18, 2024

DeathBeforeDismount said:
Fuck hornady. Stealing designs and making shit in China. Anyone who buys that shit deserves to get aids.

I gotta say, I agree for the most part. In just one day (here) we found out they were copying everyone else’s bullets and the Henderson to boot. That’s a bold move, Cotton. Let’s see if it works for them. It certainly lowers my opinion of them. I bet Jack would be pissed.

CK1.0 · Oct 18, 2024

As usual, I'm the black sheep... I have the Frankford Arsenal Universal Precision Case Trimmer, the drill-mount one that indexes off the shoulder and comes with bushings for just about every cartridge out of the box. It's been great, it does its job well enough that I've never felt the need to upgrade it. IDK, it's probably like $50 bucks?

Just about any modern DeWalt or Milwaukee cordless drill stomps on the puny motors in either the Henderson or Giraud, and when set on their fastest settings (which is what I use) they cut through cases like a hot knife through butter and my stuff comes out +/- .001" every time. I prefer using a 12v Milawalkee over an 18v DeWalt because it's lighter and less fatiguing to use with plenty of power and I can tear through hundreds of cases as fast as I can pick them up and count "one Mississippi". They yield a super clean cut too.

That said, I don't trim every firing, more like once a season. I use a borescope to see how much room I've got and don't trim until I need to and then I take them back to SAAMI minimum until the next time comes around.

Kangbeef · Oct 19, 2024

Started with a frankford arsenal but bought a used giraud on arfcom cheap for 223. I love it and like others have said its one piece of equipment thats a must have. The FA trimmer is used for other cartridges I dont shoot as much.

Harman117 · Oct 19, 2024

CK1.0 said:
Just about any modern DeWalt or Milwaukee cordless drill stomps on the puny motors in either the Henderson or Giraud, and when set on their fastest settings (which is what I use) they cut through cases like a hot knife through butter and my stuff comes out +/- .001" every time.

I definitely disagree on your motor comment. This Henderson motor spins at about 2x the speed of an average hand drill (more important then torque in this case) it definitely weighs a lot more than the Milwaukee M18 I have, it is significantly smoother, and quieter. I've used hand drills for brass trimming and this thing is a big step up. I wouldn't be calling it puny

It's a motor designed for a specific task instead of adapting a general/common tool. Clearly you can still trim brass with a cordless, but in my experience the Henderson is better.

jthor · Oct 19, 2024

Yup, high quality trimmers are worth it. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t reload enough. I scoffed at the price of the Henderson Trimmer back in 2017 or 2018 and ended up buying one a few months later. The money spent is well worth the time saved.

DeathBeforeDismount · Oct 19, 2024

Did I mention fuck Hornady yet?

jthor · Oct 19, 2024

I wonder if Hornady will even publicly say anything. Us in the know are a very small population. Real shitty of them to do what they did to a small business. The incorporation of a micrometer is an awesome move and the big adjustment stopper, but really a foul to do this to an American small business. One thing I like about MDT is if there is a product out there they want to produce they will bring that owner under their umbrella: Ckyepod, LRA electronic bubble level. Hornady could have easily done that in this situation.

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