One-Day Range Load Development

zerosystem310 · Jun 6, 2024

I was just wondering if it's possible to do a one-day load development.

Plateform: Aero Percision Solus
Caliber: 6mm CM
Barrel: 26in Sendero (100 rounds through)
Bullet: 108 gr ELDM
Brass: New Alpha OCD LRP
Powder: H4350
Primer: CCI #200 LRP

1- (Powder Charge test)Load up 1 or 3 rounds each from 39.2gr-41/42gr or in .2 increments seated .03 from Jam 2.810" (seated at 2.780"") (10rounds vs 30 rounds vs 60 rounds)
*Once the node is found only shoot that node group and save the rest for something else or reuse it to re-test seating depth once the group changes to retune.

2- (Bullet Seat test) Load an additional 3x3 rounds from the powder charge test seating .03 (2.750", 2.720",2.690") 120 Rounds vs 180 rounds)

The only reason for this one-day load development is that the range is 1.5hr away without traffic and 2.5hr-3hr with traffic. I'm trying to make the most with time and money. They cost almost the same if I were to do 2 trips vs 1 trip and loading extra for seating depth so the only thing is I'm losing time. The only way I lose is if the range for the seating node isn't enough.

Any assistance is much appreciated.

K80/6.5 · Jun 6, 2024

It can be done I did it with my brother’s 6 dasher. You could always pull the bullets from what loads that didn’t have a good powder node and load them with good node later on. Seat long and take your press to the range and seat at the bench after finding powder node.

straightshooter1 · Jun 6, 2024

zerosystem310 said:
I was just wondering if it's possible to do a one-day load development.

Plateform: Aero Percision Solus
Caliber: 6mm CM
Barrel: 26in Sendero (100 rounds through)
Bullet: 108 gr ELDM
Brass: New Alpha OCD LRP
Powder: H4350
Primer: CCI #200 LRP

1- (Powder Charge test)Load up 1 or 3 rounds each from 39.2gr-41/42gr or in .2 increments seated .03 from Jam 2.810" (seated at 2.780"") (10rounds vs 30 rounds vs 60 rounds)
*Once the node is found only shoot that node group and save the rest for something else or reuse it to re-test seating depth once the group changes to retune.

2- (Bullet Seat test) Load an additional 3x3 rounds from the powder charge test seating .03 (2.750", 2.720",2.690") 120 Rounds vs 180 rounds)

The only reason for this one-day load development is that the range is 1.5hr away without traffic and 2.5hr-3hr with traffic. I'm trying to make the most with time and money. They cost almost the same if I were to do 2 trips vs 1 trip and loading extra for seating depth so the only thing is I'm losing time. The only way I lose is if the range for the seating node isn't enough.

Any assistance is much appreciated.

My approach to do in one day is typically like this:

Load 5 rounds for each powder charge from 39.2 to 42 in .3 increments at .010 off the lands. Fire only 3 rounds of each charge, except when the group is poor it's just 2 rounds as the group won't improve. Having gone through each charge weight, I'll look for the best group and how it relates to the groups on either side of it (am interested in least vertical change). I'll then fire the remaining 2 rounds of that charge as well as those for the groups on each side of it onto a separate target to see if I can verify and see if that charge is indeed repeatable. I don't bother with seating depth tuning until I find a good powder charge as the seating depth changes are best used for fine tuning the charge.

Well, this is how I approach it, and it seems to work well enough for me.

zerosystem310 · Jun 6, 2024

straightshooter1 said:
My approach to do in one day is typically like this:

Load 5 rounds for each powder charge from 39.2 to 42 in .3 increments at .010 off the lands. Fire only 3 rounds of each charge, except when the group is poor it's just 2 rounds as the group won't improve. Having gone through each charge weight, I'll look for the best group and how it relates to the groups on either side of it (am interested in least vertical change). I'll then fire the remaining 2 rounds of that charge as well as those for the groups on each side of it onto a separate target to see if I can verify and see if that charge is indeed repeatable. I don't bother with seating depth tuning until I find a good powder charge as the seating depth changes are best used for fine tuning the charge.

Well, this is how I approach it, and it seems to work well enough for me.

View attachment 8433254

So you base it off the group and not the SD from the velocity?

zerosystem310 · Jun 6, 2024

K80/6.5 said:
It can be done I did it with my brother’s 6 dasher. You could always pull the bullets from what loads that didn’t have a good powder node and load them with good node later on. Seat long and take your press to the range and seat at the bench after finding powder node.

I was thinking the same thing.

straightshooter1 · Jun 6, 2024

zerosystem310 said:
So you base it off the group and not the SD from the velocity?

That's right. The thing I get out of velocity SD's is that they tell me how well I'm prepping and loading the cartridges. I can have good velocity SD's and still not have good groups. Poor velocity SD's tells me something is wrong with my reloading. . . and of course, that can show up on target as well. So, for an precision/accurate load, I don't look for the lowest SD's.

Here's a pic that I shared for another reason a while back that might give you some insight:

diggler1833 · Jun 6, 2024

I've done it before (but probably more out of luck).

Picked a "safe" load that was near where I thought I wanted to be velocity-wise, and loaded in .010 increments (5x6, so 30 rounds total). Shot the shorter bullets first, and once I got a group I liked, I seated the longest down to that good load and tried it again.

You're at the mercy of your barrel liking the bullet and powder, but sometimes it falls into place. It is still a great way to end up with less optimal ES and SD though.

Last time I tried it was with my buddy's 300NM, but I only loaded 5x5. First two depths were ~.8" @ 100. 3rd attempt shot a .4", so I seated my longest back to #3 and shot another .4". Seated my 2nd longest down to #3 again and shot a .4 MOA @ 385. Seated the last 5 rounds, but was done for the day 20 rounds in.

First and second attempts with depth #3

Some barrels you get lucky, and some take you 3 bullets and powders before you find a winner.

supercorndogs · Jun 6, 2024

My 6 creed in starline brass likes 40.5 for right at 3k out of a 21" barrel. It shoots several 105 class bullets we'll with this charge weight. It is the only load I have ever tried in it. I just picked a charge inside of book numbers loaded 10. It was good enough so loaded the rest. Kept shooting better as the barrel broke in. Kept using it.

Gentleman4561 · Jun 6, 2024

Set OAL to mag length or match the Hornady factory 6CM.

Load 5 rounds each in .3 grain increments from 1 grain below max to 2 grains over max. Stop if you see pressure signs, use the load .6 below where you saw pressure signs.

Unless you are way off from the anticipated speed, run this load.

With a good rifle/reloading technique this load will shoot all day long just as accurate as you need it to.

Finding Nodes, OCWs and ladder tests are all results of standard deviation. If you do any of these tests in 100 round increments you will see that they are worthless.

RegionRat · Jun 7, 2024

I will suggest something I have done very many times.... I won't even debate the load testing methods.... however, no matter which test method is your favorite....

If you want to get good at tuning and load development, and get it done with the fewest wasted shots and the fewest number of trips back and forth to the range..... then learn to load at the range. YMMV

Yondering · Jun 7, 2024

I don't believe you can be done with load development in one range session, because an important part of load development is proving out the load over multiple range sessions. I'd wager most of us have encountered loads that seemed to shoot well that first day, but proved to be inconsistent over time. I do think you can get a good start in one day, but IMO if you find two or more loads that seem to shoot well, it's worth loading up batches of each one and continuing to prove them out over a few more shooting sessions.

I also don't believe you can do any decent load development with only 3 rounds of each load. It's just not enough to tell if a load is actually good, or you just randomly stacked a few rounds close together. All you need for proof of this is to look at a group of 10 or more shots - you can pick 3 of them that are close together and look like a small group, or pick 3 others that are as far apart as possible. Both sets came from the same group, and with only 3 rounds you'd have no way of knowing any different.

My load development methods vary depending on the application, but sometimes I like to do a "fast" development that is similar to what @Gentleman4561 described - basically find max, back off a little, and then tune seating depth from there. If it doesn't shoot reasonably promising with 5-10 rounds at that "back off a little" step, then either try a couple different primers, or switch to another powder or bullet.

supercorndogs · Jun 7, 2024

Gentleman4561 said:
Set OAL to mag length or match the Hornady factory 6CM.

Load 5 rounds each in .3 grain increments from 1 grain below max to 2 grains over max. Stop if you see pressure signs, use the load .6 below where you saw pressure signs.

Unless you are way off from the anticipated speed, run this load.

With a good rifle/reloading technique this load will shoot all day long just as accurate as you need it to.

Finding Nodes, OCWs and ladder tests are all results of standard deviation. If you do any of these tests in 100 round increments you will see that they are worthless.

OCW as a method to find load with a stable POI is solid.

John Glidewell · Jun 7, 2024

I have a portable load station I can set up in the back of my truck. You can also do pre weighed charges in vials so you don't wast components. Famous BR guy does that, he put out a video on it too.

Gentleman4561 · Jun 7, 2024

supercorndogs said:
View attachment 8433548

OCW as a method to find load with a stable POI is solid.

OCW is not solid when repeated.

Try doing OCW with 30 shot groups or 50 shot groups and you will find out all of the groups average out to the same size with a vertical string directly proportionate to charge weight.

supercorndogs · Jun 7, 2024

Gentleman4561 said:
OCW is not solid when repeated.

Try doing OCW with 30 shot groups or 50 shot groups and you will find out all of the groups average out to the same size with a vertical string directly proportionate to charge weight.

Actually that POI shift on my target will repeat. And was repeated multiple times.

When looking at an OCW target group size is not what you are looking at.

No all charge weights don't average out to shoot the same size groups.

No, I am not going to start loading 300 round OCW tests to find a POI shift I can find with 18-24 rounds.

Gentleman4561 · Jun 7, 2024

supercorndogs said:
Actually that POI shift on my target will repeat. And was repeated multiple times.

When looking at an OCW target group size is not what you are looking at.

No all charge weights don't average out to shoot the same size groups.

No, I am not going to start loading 300 round OCW tests to find a POI shift I can find with 18-24 rounds.

Your POI shift is not repeatable.

Others have already loaded 300 rounds and shot OCW tests to prove that they don’t work, no reason for you to do it too.

supercorndogs · Jun 8, 2024

Gentleman4561 said:
Your POI shift is not repeatable.

Others have already loaded 300 rounds and shot OCW tests to prove that they don’t work, no reason for you to do it too.

It's funny because I shot 80 rounds of 28.5 before I ran the test. And Started shooting 30.5 with a new zero which has been consistent for another 120 rounds.

More groups. Top is before I switched to a thermal fit receiver and glued the barrel into an upper reciver. Bottom is after. Tell me where you see the .2-.3 mil POI shift in group size. Circles are about 3/4" or the size of a dime. This is with a 2-10 scope without adjustable parallax.

Show me one of these 300 round ocw tests.

Ledzep · Jun 8, 2024

I didn't see this... going to wander my way out of here.

supercorndogs · Jun 8, 2024

Please don't run off. Go right ahead and tell me how diffrent powder charges don't sometimes have a diffrent POI and all powder charges shoot the same sized groups. Go ahead and explain to me how my 80 and 120 round POI samples are deciveing me. And how I didn't find it with 3 rounds per charge.

Malum Prohibitum · Jun 8, 2024

straightshooter1 said:
My approach to do in one day is typically like this:

Load 5 rounds for each powder charge from 39.2 to 42 in .3 increments at .010 off the lands. Fire only 3 rounds of each charge, except when the group is poor it's just 2 rounds as the group won't improve. Having gone through each charge weight, I'll look for the best group and how it relates to the groups on either side of it (am interested in least vertical change). I'll then fire the remaining 2 rounds of that charge as well as those for the groups on each side of it onto a separate target to see if I can verify and see if that charge is indeed repeatable. I don't bother with seating depth tuning until I find a good powder charge as the seating depth changes are best used for fine tuning the charge.

Well, this is how I approach it, and it seems to work well enough for me.

View attachment 8433254

I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but it does not look like you have any need to try another seating depth at all. .26" to .31" all at the same seating depth. Maybe I am too easily satisfied, but I would call it a day.

Assuming it keeps shooting like that.

straightshooter1 · Jun 8, 2024

Malum Prohibitum said:
I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but it does not look like you have any need to try another seating depth at all. .26" to .31" all at the same seating depth. Maybe I am too easily satisfied, but I would call it a day.

Assuming it keeps shooting like that.

Hmmm??? Am not sure just what you're referring to (.26 to .31) on my target. That target I posted there was the verification test run after using the method I described. And since I have a tuner attached, I was able to make a small improvement. That's as good as this gun can do and the big problem I have is how to manage the nut behind the trigger.

Malum Prohibitum · Jun 8, 2024

straightshooter1 said:
Hmmm??? Am not sure just what you're referring to (.26 to .31) on my target.

Group sizes? .319, .313. .126. (oh, I see, I typed .26 instead of .126, sorry)

RegionRat · Jun 9, 2024

John Glidewell said:
I have a portable load station I can set up in the back of my truck. You can also do pre weighed charges in vials so you don't wast components. Famous BR guy does that, he put out a video on it too.

John, I used to be one of those that brought pre-charged vials to the range because the winds would interfere with a beam balance and it was too much fuss to go load in a shelter or in the truck cab or bed. Then, along came things like the Chargemaster and that ended the test tubes for most of us.

When you are actually exploring uncharted rigs and recipes, it is hard to anticipate what to bring in vials, but with a CM that has its own wind cover, it is a piece of cake to get what you want on command. I will grant it isn't as fast as dumping a tube of powder, but it really isn't bad to make up 10 to 20 loads while your barrel cools off. I can usually charge and seat 20 loads in under 30 minutes while testing at the range.

And to preemptively answer the inevitable questions about the performance of a CM with respect to the effect of it's charge ES on the velocity ES, no the CM is not the equal of the units that drop within 0.02 grains and the ES of ammo made with a higher performance charge accuracy will also follow.

However, in terms of exploration of load development for preloaded ammo, if the node isn't wide enough for a CM to hold it, then it isn't wide enough to repeat for preloaded ammo anyway. YMMV

memilanuk · Jun 9, 2024

That reminds me... I have a CM1500 sitting under the bench. Been there a while, since the power supply 'wall wart' took a tumble and a hit during a move - and I'd pretty much moved to using an AutoTrickler for all my 'at home' charge weighing. Probably just need to find a replacement power supply brick and dust it off... might come in handy for a few near-future projects.

I went the tube/vial route like a lot of people there for a while... I've got some that fit neatly in the holes of a Lapua .308 Win brass box; works pretty well. But while it certainly beats pulling down rounds that ended up being loaded with too hot of a charge... invariably I never have enough of the particular charge weights that end up being 'interesting', and have to make another range trip. So... still less than ideal.

'Back in the day'... I actually did pretty damn well with just a Harrels powder measure. Yeah, they meter medium and long stick powder like a$$... but even +/- a few tenths I could usually nail down a surprisingly good load pretty fast. There are times I wonder why I ever stopped.

Oh, wait. Playing 200 f'ing questions with the dingleberries at the range who won't leave me the f$ck alone while I'm trying to load and shoot while the conditions are stable and can't take a hint that I'm not there to socialize...

RegionRat · Jun 9, 2024

memilanuk said:
Oh, wait. Playing 200 f'ing questions with the dingleberries at the range who won't leave me the f$ck alone while I'm trying to load and shoot while the conditions are stable and can't take a hint that I'm not there to socialize...

LOL
I get you.
I just tell them they have to hold their questions and wait till I run the tests, then they can come over and shoot with my radar and ShotMarker when I'm done.

When those wind flags are behaving, I don't fool around with folks.

Most of them get it when they are allowed to watch and I talk aloud so they follow what I am doing and what they are seeing.

memilanuk · Jun 9, 2024

Sounds like you have a more... ed-u-mah-cated... crowd than I typically encounter. I've tried; in the end it's about like trying to explain my cell phone to a dog. But they still want to know all the details...

RegionRat · Jun 9, 2024

memilanuk said:
Sounds like you have a more... ed-u-mah-cated... crowd than I typically encounter. I've tried; in the end it's about like trying to explain my cell phone to a dog. But they still want to know all the details...

I only shoot at my club or on the bases, which in theory means there is a filter on who walks up on me.

On a public range around here, somebody would shoot my sensor hub or microphones just to be a jerk. So, I wouldn't dream of putting an eTarget up at any public range in SoCal.

zerosystem310 · Jun 10, 2024

So at the end of the day i was over thinking this and felt like it was inpossible to do this so I just went ahead and did powder test and Ill do a seating test when I come back from leak

Jam=2.29"
Bullet seated depth = 2.27"

*Kind of need help with finding the node as I think their are multiple. Shots were shoting from 39.2gn to 42 and then 42 to 39.2 and giving it enought time to cool down.

39.4
39.6
40.2
40.4
40.6
40.8

RegionRat · Jun 10, 2024

All this shows you is that the very lowest charges may not behave, and that the very highest tended to show potential for decent velocity stats, but without the target data you could just pick any level in the top third of your run and it would just be guesswork without the targets.

ETA: Did you tell us what kind of shooting you want to do with this?
What are your goals?
For example, this is supposed to shoot less than XX MOA at YY Yards.
If you are happy just shooting with your chronograph, then we are happy too.
If you are not, tell us what would make you happy?

straightshooter1 · Jun 10, 2024

zerosystem310 said:
So at the end of the day i was over thinking this and felt like it was inpossible to do this so I just went ahead and did powder test and Ill do a seating test when I come back from leak

Jam=2.29"
Bullet seated depth = 2.27"

*Kind of need help with finding the node as I think their are multiple. Shots were shoting from 39.2gn to 42 and then 42 to 39.2 and giving it enought time to cool down.

39.4
39.6
40.2
40.4
40.6
40.8

View attachment 8436066
View attachment 8436067 View attachment 8436068 View attachment 8436069 View attachment 8436070
View attachment 8436103
View attachment 8436106

I guess you were expecting to find accuracy "nodes" from velocity data??? As you can see with your 5 strings, there's no pattern that will do that. Combine the 5 strings onto on graph and you will see a simple linier trend with no real "flat spots" that some shooters suggest will identify an accuracy "node". As RegionRat says, without seeing what's on the targets, it's just guesswork.

Velocity SD's and ES's tends to do well at telling you how well you're loading your cartridges, which of course, helps with the precision you will see or not see on target. Though, like RegionRat, the SD graph does suggest to me those higher charges might be worth testing on target. Just keep in mind that the lowest SD's are not what always produce the best precision on target, though if you're shooting extreme long range, that can be a big deal.

If you were to shoot the 5 of each of those loads at a different dot along a horizontal line on a target where one can compare the groups to each other and interpret the changes in the groups, then you're most likely going to be able to identify the "node(s)".

zerosystem310 · Jun 10, 2024

RegionRat said:
All this shows you is that the very lowest charges may not behave, and that the very highest tended to show potential for decent velocity stats, but without the target data you could just pick any level in the top third of your run and it would just be guesswork without the targets.

ETA: Did you tell us what kind of shooting you want to do with this?
What are your goals?
For example, this is supposed to shoot less than XX MOA at YY Yards.
If you are happy just shooting with your chronograph, then we are happy too.
If you are not, tell us what would make you happy?

Did you tell us what kind of shooting you want to do with this?
-I want to make my way up in PRS> NRL> F Class > ERL
What are your goals?
- Complete and try and win a match.
For example, this is supposed to shoot less than XX MOA at YY Yards.
-MOA is listed and this is at 100YD
If you are happy just shooting with your chronograph, then we are happy too.
If you are not, tell us what would make you happy?
-Any time I am not working I'm Happy but knowing I'm trying my best to get better results would be better.

Franko · Jun 10, 2024

RegionRat said:
I only shoot at my club or on the bases, which in theory means there is a filter on who walks up on me.

On a public range around here, somebody would shoot my sensor hub or microphones just to be a jerk. So, I wouldn't dream of putting an eTarget up at any public range in SoCal.

We may have run into the same yahoos. I have seen a guy set up rimfire targets at 100 at Angeles, tell everybody not so shoot as they are only rated for rimfire and strangely enough the targets had large diameter holes in them by the time the next ceasefire was called. The months before hunting season are even better...

Franko · Jun 10, 2024

Gentleman4561 said:
Set OAL to mag length or match the Hornady factory 6CM.

Load 5 rounds each in .3 grain increments from 1 grain below max to 2 grains over max. Stop if you see pressure signs, use the load .6 below where you saw pressure signs.

Unless you are way off from the anticipated speed, run this load.

With a good rifle/reloading technique this load will shoot all day long just as accurate as you need it to.

Finding Nodes, OCWs and ladder tests are all results of standard deviation. If you do any of these tests in 100 round increments you will see that they are worthless.

How did you arrive at the .6 grain number for backing off when you hit pressure?

straightshooter1 · Jun 10, 2024

zerosystem310 said:
Did you tell us what kind of shooting you want to do with this?
-I want to make my way up in PRS> NRL> F Class > ERL
What are your goals?
- Complete and try and win a match.
For example, this is supposed to shoot less than XX MOA at YY Yards.
-MOA is listed and this is at 100YD
If you are happy just shooting with your chronograph, then we are happy too.
If you are not, tell us what would make you happy?
-Any time I am not working I'm Happy but knowing I'm trying my best to get better results would be better.

View attachment 8436242
View attachment 8436243
View attachment 8436244

I'd load up 40.6 thru 41.2 and see how this compares to these target results as they seem pretty close to all being on the same plane and in a wide "node". IMHO

You might consider getting a little bit better bullet. . . . like Berger.

zerosystem310 · Jun 11, 2024

straightshooter1 said:
I'd load up 40.6 thru 41.2 and see how this compares to these target results as they seem pretty close to all being on the same plane and in a wide "node". IMHO

You might consider getting a little bit better bullet. . . . like Berger.

I bought 300 rounds of factory 108 ELDM and it produced this, so went with 108gn ELDM before I deep dove into reloading, load development, Fclass John, Erick Cortina, and so on.

I already bought 1k worth so I was going to shot them and then try something else maybe 109 ELDM or 109 Berger hybrid.

RegionRat · Jun 11, 2024

zerosystem310 said:
Did you tell us what kind of shooting you want to do with this?
-I want to make my way up in PRS> NRL> F Class > ERL
What are your goals?
- Complete and try and win a match.
For example, this is supposed to shoot less than XX MOA at YY Yards.
-MOA is listed and this is at 100YD
If you are happy just shooting with your chronograph, then we are happy too.
If you are not, tell us what would make you happy?
-Any time I am not working I'm Happy but knowing I'm trying my best to get better results would be better.

Okay, You are off to a decent start with decent hardware and fair components. You can learn a lot with this stuff as a starting point before you worry about upgrades. Nothing wrong with trying other bullets/powders, etc., but you can get rolling with what you have and learn plenty.

You will want to get the load performance down to below 0.5 MOA for 20 shot strings to be competitive in F-Class.
You won't need them that tight for some club level competitions in PRS, but you will not want surprises when weather shifts either.

I would shoot as many midrange club F-Class matches as you can while you also learn field position shooting as in PRS. F-Class club matches will give you practice at reading wind at a standard distance, and at learning load development in parallel with trying PRS club matches.

Keep working on your shooting skills while you also work on your loading technique, but pay more attention to concepts like the Audette Ladder and your targets than to your chronograph. Test your rig at 600 or more and see if there is any tendency for compensation (nodes), then test it again to see if it repeats on different days in different weather.

Try to get to a decent performance at 300 yards and to be consistent. When you are 95% or more at 300, then work on 600. The difference is how much of your horizontal score will be from wind. You will start to feel the wind at 300 and there is not much point to going too far unless you can master this distance.

If you can, join a club and get a mentor who shoots either F-Class or PRS. You will climb the learning curve faster by learning from them than you will on your own or from the internet.

Good Luck and in for the reports as you make progress.

zerosystem310 · Jun 12, 2024

So what do you guys suggest I load to and stick with? I was thinking 41.2 and then going in .003 increments from 2.27 to 2.24

RegionRat · Jun 13, 2024

Postpone making too many changes till you know you have a good idea of how the rig and recipe responds to charge weights crossed with weather and cleaning intervals, and your ability to reproduce the results with your loading and shooting skills.

Just getting to an understanding of the best charge weight, and how forgiving it is to fouling, weather, brass cycles, your own good/bad shooting days, etc., is a lot for a rookie.

Unless and until you know those issues are under control, you wouldn't be able to know if you are being fooled by seating depth changes and low sample testing. YMMV

Good Luck and in for the range reports on the charge weight targets.

Seymour Fish · Nov 7, 2024

Gentleman4561 said:
Your POI shift is not repeatable.

Others have already loaded 300 rounds and shot OCW tests to prove that they don’t work, no reason for you to do it too.

Who are these mysterious others ? Let’s see the hard evidence so as to pick it apart

Seymour Fish · Nov 7, 2024

RegionRat said:
Postpone making too many changes till you know you have a good idea of how the rig and recipe responds to charge weights crossed with weather and cleaning intervals, and your ability to reproduce the results with your loading and shooting skills.

Just getting to an understanding of the best charge weight, and how forgiving it is to fouling, weather, brass cycles, your own good/bad shooting days, etc., is a lot for a rookie.

Unless and until you know those issues are under control, you wouldn't be able to know if you are being fooled by seating depth changes and low sample testing. YMMV

Good Luck and in for the range reports on the charge weight targets.

Well said. How do the statisticians account for the 15 fps variance inMV due to hard hold vs loose hold ? Wait, they never heard of it.

Gentleman4561 · Nov 7, 2024

Seymour Fish said:
Who are these mysterious others ? Let’s see the hard evidence so as to pick it apart

Hornady is the most reputable, but many have proven that OCW, ladder, Satterlee etc. are a complete waste of time and components.

Gentleman4561 · Nov 7, 2024

supercorndogs said:
It's funny because I shot 80 rounds of 28.5 before I ran the test. And Started shooting 30.5 with a new zero which has been consistent for another 120 rounds.

More groups. Top is before I switched to a thermal fit receiver and glued the barrel into an upper reciver. Bottom is after. Tell me where you see the .2-.3 mil POI shift in group size. Circles are about 3/4" or the size of a dime. This is with a 2-10 scope without adjustable parallax.

View attachment 8434299

View attachment 8434306

Show me one of these 300 round ocw tests.

Three shot groups don’t tell us anything, especially not groups that large. I am not sure what you are trying to decipher from these photos.

What do you interpret them as telling you?

supercorndogs · Nov 7, 2024

Gentleman4561 said:
Three shot groups don’t tell us anything, especially not groups that large. I am not sure what you are trying to decipher from these photos.

What do you interpret them as telling you?

Exactly what I wrote in this thread they tell me.

What make 11 shots in 3rd groups diffrent than a 10 rd group?

supercorndogs · Nov 7, 2024

Those are dime sized circles I shoot at. Minus a couple shots I pulled I wouldn't consider them large at all for a lightweight ar15 of a bipod and bag.

straightshooter1 · Nov 7, 2024

It's only takes 2 shots for me to determine if that particular load is not the good one I'm looking for.

Like, any 2 shots over 1/2 MOA, there's no need to shoot more into that group; it's not going to get better. However, it takes quite a few more shots to determine the smallest group that's consistently the smallest.

Bevan · Nov 7, 2024

My method:

Buy a high-quality rifle system
Pick a good bullet that I want to use
Decide the precision I require
Decide the velocity I require
Buy good brass
Select the ADI (Hodgdon Extreme) powder that is most likely to give the velocity I require based on book data
Load 20 rounds, 1 grain under book max, with the bullet seated so that it fits in the mag and is some random depth of about .050" off the lands
Shoot a 10-round group, if it meets velocity and precision requirements, I've got a load. I use the other 10 rounds to confirm zero and shoot LR steel. Velocity SD "is what it is", usually less than 10fps if using good components.

With good rifles with cut-rifled barrels and good components, I consistently get a load that gives 0.05-0.06MRAD mean radius doing this (or groups averaging around 0.6MOA for 10 shots), in a single trip to the range.

If velocity does not meet requirements, I'd change powder or put more in. If there was pressure I'd reduce the charge.

Bevan · Nov 7, 2024

I don't give a toss about which load is "the best" , I just want a load that "meets requirements"

JR1200W3 · Nov 9, 2024

Gentleman4561 said:
Hornady is the most reputable, but many have proven that OCW, ladder, Satterlee etc. are a complete waste of time and components.

I think you're confusing marketing with credibility. Hornady makes less than stellar components. And then you want to listen to what they say? How about making better bullets and brass. Then maybe the things you say in podcasts will be worth listening to.

Gentleman4561 · Nov 9, 2024

JR1200W3 said:
I think you're confusing marketing with credibility. Hornady makes less than stellar components. And then you want to listen to what they say? How about making better bullets and brass. Then maybe the things you say in podcasts will be worth listening to.

Just one of countless examples, Applied Ballistics and Berger/Capstone Group have covered the issue too.

Hornady just puts it into the easiest to understand format for those still wasting their time and components at the range.

Gentleman4561 · Nov 9, 2024

Bevan said:
My method:

Buy a high-quality rifle system
Pick a good bullet that I want to use
Decide the precision I require
Decide the velocity I require
Buy good brass
Select the ADI (Hodgdon Extreme) powder that is most likely to give the velocity I require based on book data
Load 20 rounds, 1 grain under book max, with the bullet seated so that it fits in the mag and is some random depth of about .050" off the lands
Shoot a 10-round group, if it meets velocity and precision requirements, I've got a load. I use the other 10 rounds to confirm zero and shoot LR steel. Velocity SD "is what it is", usually less than 10fps if using good components.

With good rifles with cut-rifled barrels and good components, I consistently get a load that gives 0.05-0.06MRAD mean radius doing this (or groups averaging around 0.6MOA for 10 shots), in a single trip to the range.

If velocity does not meet requirements, I'd change powder or put more in. If there was pressure I'd reduce the charge.

You have it figured out.

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