Help with optic placement

kravi · Nov 25, 2024

Hi folks,

So I'm getting into the precision rifle game (doing my first NRL Hunter match in April). I cannibalized my scope from a gas gun (LaRue 308). It is an Athlon Cronus 4.5x29. I've got it mounted on an Area 419 one piece which itself is on a nightforce rail. The rifle itself is a baseline Bergara b14 HMR (22" barrel in 6.5 creed).

So my challenge is eye relief and the design of the rifle. The Cronus has always treated me well, and never had a problem running it on my gas gun (which obviously has a mount that brings it forward).

But to me, it looks and feels like the Bergara stock has weird geometry and the optic is too close to my eye for comfort. I've got the mount all the way forward, and the optic all the way forward in the mount (see picture), but I still find it a bit too close. I'm now tempted to add a couple of more spacers to the stock, despite me having it "set up" for my length of pull, just to push it a bit further away. Any thoughts? Any wisdom to share? I'm still learning, but even going for a "modern" shooting position without a cant (unlike carbine shooting), it just is wonky.

Looking for wisdom! Thanks in advance folks!

Harman117 · Nov 25, 2024

Cantilever mount or extended pic rail. I wouldn't compromise length of pull if you already have that set correctly for you

kravi · Nov 25, 2024

Does it look to you that the problem is the Beragara's geometry? And do you have an extended pic rail to recommend?

Cheers!

Harman117 · Nov 25, 2024

kravi said:
Does it look to you that the problem is the Beragara's geometry? And do you have an extended pic rail to recommend?

Cheers!

We can't really tell you if there's a problem with the geometry or ergonomics of the stock. It's a mass produced rifle meant to fit multiple people of different shapes and sizes. If it is uncomfortable for YOU then you should look into modifications or a replacement stock/chassis.

I don't have any recommendations off the top of my head, use Google and search all the big brands for one.

kravi · Nov 25, 2024

Harman117 said:
We can't really tell you if there's a problem with the geometry or ergonomics of the stock. It's a mass produced rifle meant to fit multiple people of different shapes and sizes. If it is uncomfortable for YOU then you should look into modifications or a replacement stock/chassis.

I don't have any recommendations off the top of my head, use Google and search all the big brands for one.

No that's fair. I was wondering if this was a known issue with b14 stocks, or something peculiar to me. Even as far forward as the optic is, the optic is still back above the front of the grip which makes me think it is a stock geometry thing. Or maybe it is just me and my freakish body.

DeathBeforeDismount · Nov 25, 2024

You are most likely choking up too much unless your LOP is way short. Face should rest slightly on cheek rest...not forward. Almost heads up without putting pressure downward on the stock.

You could also go with a longer rail. That one looks short. Sometimes the combo of gun and optic don't leave you with good options.

Terry Cross · Nov 25, 2024

kravi said:
Hi folks,

So I'm getting into the precision rifle game (doing my first NRL Hunter match in April). I cannibalized my scope from a gas gun (LaRue 308). It is an Athlon Cronus 4.5x29. I've got it mounted on an Area 419 one piece which itself is on a nightforce rail. The rifle itself is a baseline Bergara b14 HMR (22" barrel in 6.5 creed).

So my challenge is eye relief and the design of the rifle. The Cronus has always treated me well, and never had a problem running it on my gas gun (which obviously has a mount that brings it forward).

But to me, it looks and feels like the Bergara stock has weird geometry and the optic is too close to my eye for comfort. I've got the mount all the way forward, and the optic all the way forward in the mount (see picture), but I still find it a bit too close. I'm now tempted to add a couple of more spacers to the stock, despite me having it "set up" for my length of pull, just to push it a bit further away. Any thoughts? Any wisdom to share? I'm still learning, but even going for a "modern" shooting position without a cant (unlike carbine shooting), it just is wonky.

View attachment 8553924

Looking for wisdom! Thanks in advance folks!

If the Bergara receiver takes Rem 700 pattern scope bases, get yourself a NF 1piece Pic rail base for it. That would give you maybe 3/4" or more forward mounting ability.

X-Treme Duty™ - Bases (Steel) - Nightforce Optics

Precision CNC machined to exact Mil. Std. 1913 specification rail dimensions from a single billet of steel. They match the receiver contour, ensuring straight

www.nightforceoptics.com

kravi · Nov 25, 2024

Terry Cross said:
If the Bergara receiver takes Rem 700 pattern scope bases, get yourself a NF 1piece Pic rail base for it. That would give you maybe 3/4" or more forward mounting ability.

X-Treme Duty™ - Bases (Steel) - Nightforce Optics

Precision CNC machined to exact Mil. Std. 1913 specification rail dimensions from a single billet of steel. They match the receiver contour, ensuring straight

www.nightforceoptics.com

So I have the nightforce standard duty pic rail base (20 MOA). But it doesn't extend past the front mount points.

Cheers,
Adam

kravi · Nov 25, 2024

DeathBeforeDismount said:
You are most likely choking up too much unless your LOP is way short. Face should rest slightly on cheek rest...not forward. Almost heads up without putting pressure downward on the stock.

You could also go with a longer rail. That one looks short. Sometimes the combo of gun and optic don't leave you with good options.

That's what I'm thinking. My LOP was measured the classical way with the butt in the crook of my elbow and my finger tip horizontal to the trigger. While my old fashioned tendency to shoot at an angle is there, I'm teaching myself to shoot in line with the rifle, not bladed. It helped, but it still feels too short. I'm thinking an extended base is where it is at.

Cheers!

DeathBeforeDismount · Nov 25, 2024

Terry Cross said:
If the Bergara receiver takes Rem 700 pattern scope bases, get yourself a NF 1piece Pic rail base for it. That would give you maybe 3/4" or more forward mounting ability.

X-Treme Duty™ - Bases (Steel) - Nightforce Optics

Precision CNC machined to exact Mil. Std. 1913 specification rail dimensions from a single billet of steel. They match the receiver contour, ensuring straight

www.nightforceoptics.com

They do take 700 pattern but IME, they need to be bedded. The 3 Bergera HMR rifles I have owned all needed the rail bedded due to the receiver top not being milled true.

spife7980 · Nov 25, 2024

I flipped my bravo cronus combo to orient the same as yours. The trigger is under the bolt shroud which is under/in front of the mag ring.

Here is how yours stacks up

Yours does seem to be mounted further ahead relative to the action/trigger than mine. If you are scrunched up too close to it all then maybe you do need to extend the length of pull. I’ve got all three butt spacers in my bravo.

WB300 · Nov 25, 2024

Can we get a few pics of you setup on the rifle from different angles??

R_A_W · Nov 25, 2024

Optic height isn't too low, so it sounds like LOP + blading to me. How many of the LOP spacers do you have in and how tall are you?

I'm 6'1, have lower rings, & 3 spacers installed:

DeathBeforeDismount said:
The 3 Bergera HMR rifles I have owned all needed the rail bedded due to the receiver top not being milled true.

My B14R has the base screws tapped ~12MOA to the right. I suspect this is not part of Bergara's QC

kravi · Nov 26, 2024

So I sent a picture to a buddy and he confirmed that my head was angled too far forward. By pulling my head back, and keeping myself perpendicular, I was able to approach the rifle as I should. I've moved the optic back to the center of the pic rail, and even centered the optic itself in the A419 mount. So my position works.

But damn does it feel like yoga getting my head back like that... A long day at the range is certainly going to leave some pain.

Cheers guys!

DeathBeforeDismount · Nov 26, 2024

kravi said:
So I sent a picture to a buddy and he confirmed that my head was angled too far forward. By pulling my head back, and keeping myself perpendicular, I was able to approach the rifle as I should. I've moved the optic back to the center of the pic rail, and even centered the optic itself in the A419 mount. So my position works.

But damn does it feel like yoga getting my head back like that... A long day at the range is certainly going to leave some pain.

Cheers guys!

You just need to learn NPA and get some more time in. A class would be a well worth the money. You should not be straining, in fact, when you are in NPA (Natural Point of Aim) you are not straining any muscles. The rifle is just a tool, you setup the gun to your body and make it come to you, not the other way around.

loveha · Nov 26, 2024

Shouldn't have to feel like yoga or fear pain after leaving the range. Two things possible. Rifle not set up correctly, or stock is just not for you. You may need to add spacers to the butt stock most likely. When shooting, you should be straight behind the rifle, head upright. Make sure you aren't sitting at what I like to call and maybe others, the boomer stance/position where your body is turned at a 45 degree angle to the rifle with head tilted down. Head tilted down was a thing when everybody believed the scope needed to be as close as possible to the barrel with non adjustable cheek risers. I see you were not trying for that, but a part of it could be your cheek rest isn't set right, maybe to high?

This is what I have found that works for me with LOTS of trial and error.
All three aspects of a rifle setup change how the rifle feels. Length of pull, sight height or position, and cheek riser height. Change just one thing, and your triangle becomes skewed.

First length of pull.
A starting place for finding LoP is hold the rifle pointed in the air by the grip with your dominant hand, arm bent at a 45 and put the butt of the pad in the crook of the elbow. The pad is normally close to the arm by 1/2" or touching it. I personally have all of my rifles within 1 spacer (MDT chassis's) of touching my arm. (I'm 5' 10" 200lbs) Only exception is my ultra light rifle I use for hunting where I have 1.5" of space for warm winter clothing. May want to kneel while doing this or go outside unless you have tall ceilings.

Second cheek riser.
For cheek riser height. Set the scope to it's minimum magnification. Get behind the rifle square at 90 degrees with eyes closed and get your head positioned comfortably on the cheek rest. Now open your eye and look through the scope. If you have to adjust your head, then you need to adjust your cheek rest till you no longer have to move your head. I run high rings on all of my rifles and all of my cheek risers are as low as they go. Shouldn't be craning your head forward while doing this. Hold the rifle to your shoulder, and just set your cheek on the rest. Maybe a tiny bit of forward head movement, but shouldn't be substantial.

Third scope to eye distance.
Now with that set, you may find you need to move the scope forward or back. I like to set the scope magnification to the middle of it's adjustment or where I will be using it most. Depends on the rifle use case. Think about what it is for. If target and find your self shooting a lot at say 12-15 set it around there. Multi purpose set it in the middle of the scopes mag range. This is all really up to you. This is all for finding a clear sight picture with how the rifle is setup. You may have to do some very slight tweaking to the cheek riser after doing this, but nothing major.

If after all of this and still doesn't feel right, move on, find something else. I have sold a chassis because no matter what I did, I could never get comfortable. Don't force something you don't like.
You may find you like a longer length of pull than what is normal, or maybe you have long arms or short arms, and the normal method for finding LoP doesn't quite apply to you. It's all trial and error. There is no cookie cutter one size fits all. It's why our high dollar stocks and chassis are adjustable.

But in the end, you should feel comfortable behind the rifle.

kravi · Nov 27, 2024

Thanks for all the feedback folks. Once I'm done digesting the turkey I'll get back

308pirate · Nov 27, 2024

kravi said:
No that's fair. I was wondering if this was a known issue with b14 stocks, or something peculiar to me. Even as far forward as the optic is, the optic is still back above the front of the grip which makes me think it is a stock geometry thing. Or maybe it is just me and my freakish body.

It's peculiar to you and that scope combined.

I have a B-14R (uses the exact same stock) and have no issues with an SWFA SS 16X.

kravi · Dec 2, 2024

So I picked up a very nicely discounted MDT Oryx stock from EuroOptic. The setup seems much more comfortable for me when I'm in a "head up" position and eye relief seems to fit my body better, even where the scope is now in the middle of the rail (not at the front). I've also convinced a buddy I shoot USPSA and 2gun with to help me with precision shooting - he's a former Marine sniper so can hopefully help me learn the basics, from position, to fitting my rifle properly, to everything else. He charges a six pack of beer for every two hour lesson - a steal in my book!

loveha · Dec 2, 2024

That chassis is nice, I like mine for what I use it for which is just hunting and some occasional plinking. Didn't go wrong there. Did you try any more with what you had before you swapped it out?

kravi · Dec 3, 2024

Yeah. I was able to make the original HMR stock work, with proper eye relief (and the scope mounted back in the middle), but it wasn't comfortable. I felt like I had to crane my head backwards all the time, which would get uncomfortable fairly quickly.

EDIT: I'm still trying to figure out what to do with the comb on the stock. I'm just not sure how high / low I want it, whether I want a cheek weld or a jaw weld, etc. I'm hoping my buddy who is a much more advanced shooter can help me with fitment.

HMRamateur · Dec 3, 2024

kravi said:
EDIT: I'm still trying to figure out what to do with the comb on the stock. I'm just not sure how high / low I want it, whether I want a cheek weld or a jaw weld, etc. I'm hoping my buddy who is a much more advanced shooter can help me with fifitment.

I think part of the problem could be the comb as well. Try it lower with more of a jaw weld, or even cheek (not cheek bone). My comb is always low as it helps keep my head straighter when getting behind the rifle. Don't worry about what feels "right" when your face contacts the stock, worry about what is more comfortable for your neck. It might also bring the rifle further in center to your body which is better.

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